October 18, 2017, 08:28:45 PM

Author Topic: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!  (Read 2719 times)

Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2017, 11:31:44 AM »
Well right now, Gate wizard is one of if not the only high level way to play wiz imo.
Tbh. have not seen any non gate wizard since the nerf except elemental lord. ;)

I haven't seen very many wizards at all in a while tbh
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iNano78

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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2017, 11:44:53 AM »
Well right now, Gate wizard is one of if not the only high level way to play wiz imo.
Tbh. have not seen any non gate wizard since the nerf except elemental lord. ;)

First, there are lots of non-Gate non-Gorgon Wizard possibilities.

Second, this thread is going off the rails. It isn't "yet another tier discussion," it's a specific match-up discussion. All other things being equal, does one specific Mage have a distinct advantage over another specific Mage. I would say yes with certainty. I've played other 2-player competitive asymmetric games at the highest levels of competition and Mage Wars is no different in this respect - there is some degree of rock-paper-scissors. It isn't just an issue of "everyone is playing that Mage wrong" - a Malakai Priest has his Burn token ability neutralized by an Adramelech Warlock. Any Wizard has all the tools to disarm a Mind's Eye Forcemaster. You don't need to be a Gen Con or ADMW champion to see that. Yes, it's still possible for a Priest to beat a Warlock, or a Forcemaster to beat a Wizard. But some mages have built-in counters to other mages. And some mages have an easier time building counters into their books to win specific matchups.  Yes, it's possible to build your book with cards specifically to mitigate your bad matchups, and a good player will do this instinctively - but that's the point. You need to go out of your way to mitigate against your bad matchups, and that fact tells you that some mages have an advantage in some matchups if/when it isn't a matchup that they have to come up with a specific strategy for dealing with. There are good matchups and bad matchups.
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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2017, 11:50:20 AM »
Well right now, Gate wizard is one of if not the only high level way to play wiz imo.
Tbh. have not seen any non gate wizard since the nerf except elemental lord. ;)

First, there are lots of non-Gate non-Gorgon Wizard possibilities.

Second, this thread is going off the rails. It isn't "yet another tier discussion," it's a specific match-up discussion. All other things being equal, does one specific Mage have a distinct advantage over another specific Mage. I would say yes with certainty. I've played other 2-player competitive asymmetric games at the highest levels of competition and Mage Wars is no different in this respect - there is some degree of rock-paper-scissors. It isn't just an issue of "everyone is playing that Mage wrong" - a Malakai Priest has his Burn token ability neutralized by an Adramelech Warlock. Any Wizard has all the tools to disarm a Mind's Eye Forcemaster. You don't need to be a Gen Con or ADMW champion to see that. Yes, it's still possible for a Priest to beat a Warlock, or a Forcemaster to beat a Wizard. But some mages have built-in counters to other mages. And some mages have an easier time building counters into their books to win specific matchups.  Yes, it's possible to build your book with cards specifically to mitigate your bad matchups, and a good player will do this instinctively - but that's the point. You need to go out of your way to mitigate against your bad matchups, and that fact tells you that some mages have an advantage in some matchups if/when it isn't a matchup that they have to come up with a specific strategy for dealing with. There are good matchups and bad matchups.
I'm sure there are, I just have only seen the lord and gate wiz since the nerf.
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Sailor Vulcan

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Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2017, 12:44:11 PM »
Well right now, Gate wizard is one of if not the only high level way to play wiz imo.
Tbh. have not seen any non gate wizard since the nerf except elemental lord. ;)

First, there are lots of non-Gate non-Gorgon Wizard possibilities.

Second, this thread is going off the rails. It isn't "yet another tier discussion," it's a specific match-up discussion. All other things being equal, does one specific Mage have a distinct advantage over another specific Mage. I would say yes with certainty. I've played other 2-player competitive asymmetric games at the highest levels of competition and Mage Wars is no different in this respect - there is some degree of rock-paper-scissors. It isn't just an issue of "everyone is playing that Mage wrong" - a Malakai Priest has his Burn token ability neutralized by an Adramelech Warlock. Any Wizard has all the tools to disarm a Mind's Eye Forcemaster. You don't need to be a Gen Con or ADMW champion to see that. Yes, it's still possible for a Priest to beat a Warlock, or a Forcemaster to beat a Wizard. But some mages have built-in counters to other mages. And some mages have an easier time building counters into their books to win specific matchups.  Yes, it's possible to build your book with cards specifically to mitigate your bad matchups, and a good player will do this instinctively - but that's the point. You need to go out of your way to mitigate against your bad matchups, and that fact tells you that some mages have an advantage in some matchups if/when it isn't a matchup that they have to come up with a specific strategy for dealing with. There are good matchups and bad matchups.

The question isn't whether there's some degree of Rock Paper Scissors or not. The question is

1. whether the Rock Paper Scissors happens for specific decks or for entire mages
And
2. Whether some mages or specific decks must spend more spell points to counter the matchups they're weak against than others do
And
3. Depending on the answer to 2, is the difference in spell point cost for countering one's weak matchups mitigated by playing more aggressively and finishing the game faster in that matchup? Or perhaps by having a plan B that shares a lot of spell points in common with plan A? (Backup plan uses a lot of same cards as main strat)


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« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 12:47:57 PM by Sailor Vulcan »
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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2017, 01:22:36 PM »
I read all that stuff and for myself i must add. Luck during dice rolls aside...

Certain strategy/player/state of the mind will NEVER win against certain strategy/player/state of the mind.

There is no "ULTIMATE" spellbook. If ten players will look at this ULTIMATE spellbook and build it, it doesnt mean that all of them will win all the time.

Mage wars are a living organism. Game evolves, spellbook evolves players evolves. Last month i was totaly destroyed by a player with less experience but one with diffrent angle on how value each card.
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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2017, 03:50:09 PM »
To answer your question: NO, every mage has the potential of beating another mage.

Since this game is designed around diffrent mages and diffrent schools you will always have one mage with an advantage/disadvantage.

I would never claim that a matchup is unwinnable. It more or less comes down to player experince with diffrent mages and how to play diffrent ways with books you've designed.
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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2017, 01:17:27 PM »
The single best weapon any mage can have is flexibility. A sharp knowledge of what your mage can and can't do as well as the ability to adapt to an opponent on the fly will win you more matches than anything you can put in your book.
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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2017, 05:34:31 AM »
Red, I have a wizard that mainly focusses on summoning a few big guys from the start and afterwards start destroying everything with lightning attack spells and the zap. (staff of storms, gloves of skill, hawkeye, akiro, lightning ring and maybe even the hill conjuration) Since it has many attack spells it also includes a wizard tower if needed. Its a pretty fun book.

It also has a light amount of mana denial. It isnt the main focus but I use the academy robes and a few mana denial spells mostly to make a small difference.
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iNano78

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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2017, 09:51:58 AM »
And I've got a Mana Denial Wizard that focuses on that strategy nearly exclusively. It's so annoying to play against that I don't even like playing it, but it has been quite successful. When it takes your opponent 2-3 rounds to channel enough mana to remove a Ghoul Rot, you know they're not having a good day. Oh, it does use the Gate to Voltarii, but no Gorgon Archers, as it prefers Mana Worms, Mana Leeches, a Devouring Jelly and a Gargoyle.

And I've been playing against an Undo Wizard who has enough Dissolve/Dispel and Attack spells to undo anything you try to do, then sticks some DoT with Arcane Ward / Enchanter's Wardstone and watches you die a slow death (but can be accelerated through lightning). No Gate to Voltarii in this one.

A well-played Paladin could win against either of these Wizards, I'd assume. Pillar of Righteous Flame could take out a Mana Worm swarm with a little assistance, and a Paladin has enough healing to survive DoT for quite a while, during which time hopefully he can get some damage through. He needs at least a couple creatures, though, as the first melee attack each round is going to be mostly neutralized by the Voltaric Shield.
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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2017, 02:38:36 PM »
And I've got a Mana Denial Wizard that focuses on that strategy nearly exclusively.

Would you mind posting your book, iNano ? ( in another thread of course )
I'm quite interested in seeing all its contents.
Don't feel obliged ;)
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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2017, 02:55:28 PM »
And I've got a Mana Denial Wizard that focuses on that strategy nearly exclusively.

Would you mind posting your book, iNano ? ( in another thread of course )
I'm quite interested in seeing all its contents.
Don't feel obliged ;)

It's a work in progress. I recently cut the Worms in favour of more Leeches, and made a few other changes (e.g. dropped Jinx'es, added more DoT curses). And I've only played it locally; I don't do OCTGN for various reasons.
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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #41 on: March 27, 2017, 03:33:33 PM »
And I've got a Mana Denial Wizard that focuses on that strategy nearly exclusively. It's so annoying to play against that I don't even like playing it, but it has been quite successful. When it takes your opponent 2-3 rounds to channel enough mana to remove a Ghoul Rot, you know they're not having a good day. Oh, it does use the Gate to Voltarii, but no Gorgon Archers, as it prefers Mana Worms, Mana Leeches, a Devouring Jelly and a Gargoyle.

And I've been playing against an Undo Wizard who has enough Dissolve/Dispel and Attack spells to undo anything you try to do, then sticks some DoT with Arcane Ward / Enchanter's Wardstone and watches you die a slow death (but can be accelerated through lightning). No Gate to Voltarii in this one.

A well-played Paladin could win against either of these Wizards, I'd assume. Pillar of Righteous Flame could take out a Mana Worm swarm with a little assistance, and a Paladin has enough healing to survive DoT for quite a while, during which time hopefully he can get some damage through. He needs at least a couple creatures, though, as the first melee attack each round is going to be mostly neutralized by the Voltaric Shield.
Uh oh. Are we seeing Blasting Banker 2.0?
Does the second book use a forge?
What's it's main strat if you can recall?
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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2017, 03:44:08 PM »
Uh oh. Are we seeing Blasting Banker 2.0?
Does the second book use a forge?
What's it's main strat if you can recall?

No.
Not that I recall (although maybe?).
I'm not at liberty to say.
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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #43 on: March 30, 2017, 06:41:42 AM »
I don´t think Paladin should be in real bad shape vs a Gate Wizard.

What are we talking about?

Unlimited time and unlimited card pool? More or less like an OCTGN tourney. Dragon would be legal etc, the channeling advantage means more.

Real life tourney like Gen-Con? Channeling means less. The Life difference matters. In a timed event the mages with less life has to do something.

A spellbook created for a tourney like Gen-Con would be different as it has to be able to beat all likely mages. In a tourney like ADWS you only have to prepare for one specific opponent, and you could take a chance and just prepare for one mage only.

So how would I go vs a Gate Wizard.

Vs the Gate id like a spawnpoint of my own and a meditation amulet.(to negate Gate a bit)
Lair, Vine Tree, Temple, Barracks.

Vs Gorgon Archer its really good vs Paladin and most of his creatures. But we could still counter it to some degree. Chant of Rage is really good. Guardian Angels with a defense and intercept seems a good option also.
Removing weak tokens should be possible with Mage Wands and Cure. Wand of healing, Renewing Spring maybe, but i would consider just go Priestess instead if i really wanted to counter Gorgon Archer.

Vs Devouring Jelly id still like Chant of Rage, else Chitin Armor and Waterfall Cloak is pretty good.

Vs Blue Gremlins id go with Brogan x2 and pack Morningstar and maybe 1 or 2 Falcon Precision.

We could go on like that - what i trying to say that most mages would have a pretty good chance of beating Gate Wizard if they knew their opponent was going to use that and the Wizard had to prepare for almost every mage.

Some mages has built in good or bad matches like Johktari and Gorgon Archer is a creature that have good and bad matchups ( or good, better, best)

Same thing if you have a nature mage and choice between Emerald Tegus or Timber Wolfs. The more creatures Tegus, Dire Wolfs etc. that you put in a spellbook, the more likely you are to have good and bad matchups.
So how many you put in should be determined by who and what you think your up against.

I don´t really believe that Paladin is at a disadvantage vs Gate Wizard (or any other mage really) It really depends on the situation.
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Re: Can Certain Mages Not win vs Others?!
« Reply #44 on: March 30, 2017, 06:48:29 AM »
I don´t really believe that Paladin is at a disadvantage vs Gate Wizard (or any other mage really) It really depends on the situation.

As I offered before: You are welcome to actually try it.

Not in theory on paper, but on the battlefield.

And after that game, or 2-3 games, you can share your insights. Maybe your opinion changes, maybe not, but I really encourage you to try it.

Just write me a message when you are online on OCTGN! :)
(even better, try to beat jack's wizard since he has far more experience playing this build)