August 22, 2017, 09:35:25 PM

Author Topic: Has the AX Crown lost his competitiveness?  (Read 742 times)

Mystery

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Re: Has the AX Crown lost his competitiveness?
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2017, 06:26:26 AM »
wardstones only pay off if you the oponent dispels something every other round at minimum else a mana crystal of him will just counter it already, I do run one still, but more for opportunity costs to mess with mana calculation etc.

Wards Stone is Alpha Omega in a curse based book.

You are basing your mana calculation on dispell. Vs. Destroy Magic and Purge you absolutely need these stones out.
The key is not to cast them too early.

that's what I ment with I still run them, but its mainly you want to cast them when you can really mess with the plans of the oponent. It helps a lot on reading when a dispel/purge is possible if a wardstone is out, unless surprising decoys are popped and he didnt cast the wardstone yet as 12mana wouldnt be enough for purge+nullify trigger.

But I am not so sure about 2 wardstone in most cases, if he has sufficient dispels he can still do it, if full actions are not so valuable as it is a defensive mage the disperse/remove curse will just pay for the extra mana.
wardstones are cool and one is almost necessary, but more I am not so sure, 2sbp points could mean another poison blood and a mage bane instead. Simply depending if curse strat is about winning faster with dealing enough dmg, or dealing dmg over a longer time, by removing all possible ways to remove them.


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Re: Has the AX Crown lost his competitiveness?
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2017, 06:42:33 AM »
But I am not so sure about 2 wardstone in most cases, if he has sufficient dispels he can still do it, if full actions are not so valuable as it is a defensive mage the disperse/remove curse will just pay for the extra mana.
wardstones are cool and one is almost necessary, but more I am not so sure, 2sbp points could mean another poison blood and a mage bane instead. Simply depending if curse strat is about winning faster with dealing enough dmg, or dealing dmg over a longer time, by removing all possible ways to remove them.

I tried running 1. And In my experience it is not enough. There will be games when the opponent sends some of his forces to destroy it, while he is saving or prepping for that purge/Remove curse and you need to replace it with 1 or 2 more in the other end of the arena.

I can't theorycraft much about this, its based on experience from played games.
The best way i can put it, is that its about efficiency and not running out of steam in mid game.

If you knew your opponents spellbook contained 3 dispells, then it would obviously not be worth casting as much as a single wardstone. But its the unknown we are up against.
The problem comes when he has mage wands and or dispell wands - potientally infinite removal if he has more magewands / dispells than you have dissolves.

Reddicediaries

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Re: Has the AX Crown lost his competitiveness?
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2017, 06:49:28 AM »
Personally, I agree with essentially everything Mystery said.
I think chitin armor became popular since so many people run tons of acid balls which is a highly overused card imo.
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Mystery

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Re: Has the AX Crown lost his competitiveness?
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2017, 07:11:09 AM »
But I am not so sure about 2 wardstone in most cases, if he has sufficient dispels he can still do it, if full actions are not so valuable as it is a defensive mage the disperse/remove curse will just pay for the extra mana.
wardstones are cool and one is almost necessary, but more I am not so sure, 2sbp points could mean another poison blood and a mage bane instead. Simply depending if curse strat is about winning faster with dealing enough dmg, or dealing dmg over a longer time, by removing all possible ways to remove them.

I tried running 1. And In my experience it is not enough. There will be games when the opponent sends some of his forces to destroy it, while he is saving or prepping for that purge/Remove curse and you need to replace it with 1 or 2 more in the other end of the arena.

I can't theorycraft much about this, its based on experience from played games.
The best way i can put it, is that its about efficiency and not running out of steam in mid game.

If you knew your opponents spellbook contained 3 dispells, then it would obviously not be worth casting as much as a single wardstone. But its the unknown we are up against.
The problem comes when he has mage wands and or dispell wands - potientally infinite removal if he has more magewands / dispells than you have dissolves.


yeah my experience I never needed more, moving back to cast one in another corner would make me to vulnerable to dispelwand or mage wand/dispel as I cant move and dissolve without them getting three uses out at min.

you need at least 3 dissolve/crumble/explode, as 2 mage wands can be possible and maybe you need an early dissolve for some other threat

Reddicediaries

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Re: Has the AX Crown lost his competitiveness?
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2017, 07:25:59 AM »
But I am not so sure about 2 wardstone in most cases, if he has sufficient dispels he can still do it, if full actions are not so valuable as it is a defensive mage the disperse/remove curse will just pay for the extra mana.
wardstones are cool and one is almost necessary, but more I am not so sure, 2sbp points could mean another poison blood and a mage bane instead. Simply depending if curse strat is about winning faster with dealing enough dmg, or dealing dmg over a longer time, by removing all possible ways to remove them.

I tried running 1. And In my experience it is not enough. There will be games when the opponent sends some of his forces to destroy it, while he is saving or prepping for that purge/Remove curse and you need to replace it with 1 or 2 more in the other end of the arena.

I can't theorycraft much about this, its based on experience from played games.
The best way i can put it, is that its about efficiency and not running out of steam in mid game.

If you knew your opponents spellbook contained 3 dispells, then it would obviously not be worth casting as much as a single wardstone. But its the unknown we are up against.
The problem comes when he has mage wands and or dispell wands - potientally infinite removal if he has more magewands / dispells than you have dissolves.


yeah my experience I never needed more, moving back to cast one in another corner would make me to vulnerable to dispelwand or mage wand/dispel as I cant move and dissolve without them getting three uses out at min.

you need at least 3 dissolve/crumble/explode, as 2 mage wands can be possible and maybe you need an early dissolve for some other threat
Also agree with this point.
Personally, I try to have 3 dissolves, 1-2 rusts, 1 acid ball. More for a water mage.
Often I have a mage wand as well.
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jacksmack

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Re: Has the AX Crown lost his competitiveness?
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2017, 08:26:38 AM »
Alright... this thread is about AX crown being competitive or not.

I find that Ward Stones are a great support in making him competitive. You find that sufficient dissolves does the job.
Lets agree to disagree about how the AX Crown 'should' solves his 'problems'.
Main point is that he is still in the game.

I will add my last comments to why i like my approach of 'draining' the opponent of mana.
My control wizard uses 4 mage wands ( - used it in ADMW winther Tournament - and ill upload my books when this is wrapped up by Arcane Duels - ). So 3 dissolves is not enough. Also if your solution is to bring 4 instead, then your just screwed if 1 hits a nullify.

Casting a wand is already 5 mana - if you now need to pay 4 mana extra per item you wish to dispell it quickly becomes very mana intensive.
This leads me to the next... in the cases where i actually wish to spend 2 or more wardstones its vs books that are 'undoing'. This is something that needs to be recognized during the game. Usually these books have little to no threads out on the board.
If i am trying to undo their undoing (destroy wands) then i have found that i lose the game. Basically i'm not gaining any momentum in destroying a wand that their forge will deploy again next round again. Only if i can empty his books it will help me. And the ward i'm destroying already got at least one cast off.
Undo books win the long run, i don't want to run a marathon against them.

This is more or less the equivalent of why my 'solution' to armor stacking is acid balls.
It's efficient for me and inefficient for my opponent to deal with.
(yes exceptions exists - Priestess, chitin armor, rain cloud etc etc.)

Reddicediaries

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Re: Has the AX Crown lost his competitiveness?
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2017, 08:30:11 AM »
Alright... this thread is about AX crown being competitive or not.

I find that Ward Stones are a great support in making him competitive. You find that sufficient dissolves does the job.
Lets agree to disagree about how the AX Crown 'should' solves his 'problems'.
Main point is that he is still in the game.

I will add my last comments to why i like my approach of 'draining' the opponent of mana.
My control wizard uses 4 mage wands ( - used it in ADMW winther Tournament - and ill upload my books when this is wrapped up by Arcane Duels - ). So 3 dissolves is not enough. Also if your solution is to bring 4 instead, then your just screwed if 1 hits a nullify.

Casting a wand is already 5 mana - if you now need to pay 4 mana extra per item you wish to dispell it quickly becomes very mana intensive.
This leads me to the next... in the cases where i actually wish to spend 2 or more wardstones its vs books that are 'undoing'. This is something that needs to be recognized during the game. Usually these books have little to no threads out on the board.
If i am trying to undo their undoing (destroy wands) then i have found that i lose the game. Basically i'm not gaining any momentum in destroying a wand that their forge will deploy again next round again. Only if i can empty his books it will help me. And the ward i'm destroying already got at least one cast off.
Undo books win the long run, i don't want to run a marathon against them.

This is more or less the equivalent of why my 'solution' to armor stacking is acid balls.
It's efficient for me and inefficient for my opponent to deal with.
(yes exceptions exists - Priestess, chitin armor, rain cloud etc etc.)
I think you are right about the wands. In the case of your wizard, I think I would ignore most of the wands and try to get a creature spawnpoint like lair nearby so you can't just telekill my few bigs.
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Coshade

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Re: Has the AX Crown lost his competitiveness?
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2017, 10:53:35 AM »
Blood Reaper, Sanguine Thirst, Infernian Scourger is a nice combo.
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Mystery

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Re: Has the AX Crown lost his competitiveness?
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2017, 05:06:30 AM »
Alright... this thread is about AX crown being competitive or not.

I find that Ward Stones are a great support in making him competitive. You find that sufficient dissolves does the job.
Lets agree to disagree about how the AX Crown 'should' solves his 'problems'.
Main point is that he is still in the game.

I will add my last comments to why i like my approach of 'draining' the opponent of mana.
My control wizard uses 4 mage wands ( - used it in ADMW winther Tournament - and ill upload my books when this is wrapped up by Arcane Duels - ). So 3 dissolves is not enough. Also if your solution is to bring 4 instead, then your just screwed if 1 hits a nullify.

Casting a wand is already 5 mana - if you now need to pay 4 mana extra per item you wish to dispell it quickly becomes very mana intensive.
This leads me to the next... in the cases where i actually wish to spend 2 or more wardstones its vs books that are 'undoing'. This is something that needs to be recognized during the game. Usually these books have little to no threads out on the board.
If i am trying to undo their undoing (destroy wands) then i have found that i lose the game. Basically i'm not gaining any momentum in destroying a wand that their forge will deploy again next round again. Only if i can empty his books it will help me. And the ward i'm destroying already got at least one cast off.
Undo books win the long run, i don't want to run a marathon against them.

This is more or less the equivalent of why my 'solution' to armor stacking is acid balls.
It's efficient for me and inefficient for my opponent to deal with.
(yes exceptions exists - Priestess, chitin armor, rain cloud etc etc.)

but doesnt your control wizard also run chitin armor and and wand of healing for acid balls?

didnt run in a nullify with dissolve in like two years if it wasnt on purpose, only devine intervention countered, but yes in the case of 4 wands undoing will lose you, if you dont get to dissolve them all which is highly unlikely against competetive play even with my wand+3dissolve/crumble

would like to see the deck on the 4 mage wands one I either lacked enough dissolve/disperse to relyable use all 4 wands with those spells if I need to use one before or have almost no killing power. (also having sufficient surviveability with 3 regrowth etc). In the end became 3

I think you are right about the wands. In the case of your wizard, I think I would ignore most of the wands and try to get a creature spawnpoint like lair nearby so you can't just telekill my few bigs.

you dont have that in your AD curse/buddy/solo warlock. In current game, for good decks in good players hands some decks just don't have to power against some others, rarely but is.


Reddicediaries

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Re: Has the AX Crown lost his competitiveness?
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2017, 02:34:28 PM »
Alright... this thread is about AX crown being competitive or not.

I find that Ward Stones are a great support in making him competitive. You find that sufficient dissolves does the job.
Lets agree to disagree about how the AX Crown 'should' solves his 'problems'.
Main point is that he is still in the game.

I will add my last comments to why i like my approach of 'draining' the opponent of mana.
My control wizard uses 4 mage wands ( - used it in ADMW winther Tournament - and ill upload my books when this is wrapped up by Arcane Duels - ). So 3 dissolves is not enough. Also if your solution is to bring 4 instead, then your just screwed if 1 hits a nullify.

Casting a wand is already 5 mana - if you now need to pay 4 mana extra per item you wish to dispell it quickly becomes very mana intensive.
This leads me to the next... in the cases where i actually wish to spend 2 or more wardstones its vs books that are 'undoing'. This is something that needs to be recognized during the game. Usually these books have little to no threads out on the board.
If i am trying to undo their undoing (destroy wands) then i have found that i lose the game. Basically i'm not gaining any momentum in destroying a wand that their forge will deploy again next round again. Only if i can empty his books it will help me. And the ward i'm destroying already got at least one cast off.
Undo books win the long run, i don't want to run a marathon against them.

This is more or less the equivalent of why my 'solution' to armor stacking is acid balls.
It's efficient for me and inefficient for my opponent to deal with.
(yes exceptions exists - Priestess, chitin armor, rain cloud etc etc.)

but doesnt your control wizard also run chitin armor and and wand of healing for acid balls?

didnt run in a nullify with dissolve in like two years if it wasnt on purpose, only devine intervention countered, but yes in the case of 4 wands undoing will lose you, if you dont get to dissolve them all which is highly unlikely against competetive play even with my wand+3dissolve/crumble

would like to see the deck on the 4 mage wands one I either lacked enough dissolve/disperse to relyable use all 4 wands with those spells if I need to use one before or have almost no killing power. (also having sufficient surviveability with 3 regrowth etc). In the end became 3

I think you are right about the wands. In the case of your wizard, I think I would ignore most of the wands and try to get a creature spawnpoint like lair nearby so you can't just telekill my few bigs.

you dont have that in your AD curse/buddy/solo warlock. In current game, for good decks in good players hands some decks just don't have to power against some others, rarely but is.
If you were playing such a book, would you go after the mage, creatures or gate? Or does it depend?
Do you think a few buddy book could work well for a paladin or siren or a spawnpoint based strategy is better?
Edit: I guess the core of what I'm asking is do you think the Araxian is at a disadvantage because he doesn't have a good creature spawnpoint that is very good and if that is the case, do you think the two new mages have that disadvantage too if you out think their better without a creature spawnpoint.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 06:26:39 AM by Reddicediaries »
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Re: Has the AX Crown lost his competitiveness?
« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2017, 05:46:57 PM »
Hey guys,

If we are looking at if the AX Worlock is competitve then you should list the reason he may be competitive.

On the positive side he has:

-Melee +1: 1 of only 3 mages start with +1 melee. (high early damage potential).
-Hit Points: Most Hit Points in the game. (noob friendly)
-Curse Master: The remove curse has partaly nulled this ability, but curses are still good reaction spells ("Raise Dead" right before finishing a creature. Enffeble a large creature right before it charges, and Magebane which I think will always be worth it's cost.
-Blood Reaper: Great healling option. This is a two edged sword, since the Reaper will be a big target. Personally I like casting him Mid game once I took out most of the anti-air (for Blood Demon) or high dice enemy creatures (for ground base demons).

On the Negitive side:
-Curse removal: I think this can be dealt with if you use your curses wisely, (arcane ward or ward stone your curses, and have something to take out any wand. Once the wand is gone then just wand a few on your curses and you are good).
-Healing: This is a Dark school problem, the Reaper will help but you will want to add some armor early.
-Out of school cards: Most out of school cards have a cheaper novies vergen of that card, I would test out those cards and see which of those cards would work with your play style.

Please feel free to add to the list
Thanks
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bigfatchef

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Re: Has the AX Crown lost his competitiveness?
« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2017, 06:09:24 PM »
-Healing: This is a Dark school problem, the Reaper will help but you will want to add some armor early.
- siphon life
- drain life
- drain soul
- vampirism
- theft of life
- death link
- demonic link
- animate dead
The Dark school has many ways to heal. They are just different than the well known regrowths and heals.

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Re: Has the AX Crown lost his competitiveness?
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2017, 02:31:24 AM »
Toss them into Arena i say! Every mage/player is molded by his/her enemies. You can dominate everyone in one town and get zero wins in next one. Stating list of spells doesnt mean they will actually be in my opponents spellbook :)

Biblo, whos travel the wolrd as a Dojo Chalanger, is probably most suitable for answering this question and he can back it up by experience. ;)
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Re: Has the AX Crown lost his competitiveness?
« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2017, 04:52:57 AM »
Honestly i think AX Crown Warlock has 1 bad matchup: Necro with good Fireprotection.
Thats not bad at all. One bad matchup and he has to bring fire protection.

Necro has been really popular around the globe (Europa and USA) :)  , and still is as far as i can tell
So i would count on to meet at lest one in a 12+ people tourney.

Who can tell?



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Coshade

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Re: Has the AX Crown lost his competitiveness?
« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2017, 11:14:30 AM »
Honestly i think AX Crown Warlock has 1 bad matchup: Necro with good Fireprotection.

That's what explode is for  ;)

I have personally been loving chains of agony for resilient creatures. When paired with Moloch's most of them go down before they can reach you. Its also really effective against creatures like Water Elemental and Zombie Brute
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 11:33:30 AM by Coshade »
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