December 18, 2017, 02:27:42 PM

Author Topic: What exactly happened with gate to hell?  (Read 600 times)

Sailor Vulcan

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What exactly happened with gate to hell?
« on: June 13, 2017, 09:53:01 AM »
So it seems the gate to hell is still unusable and unsalvageable even after errata. How did that happen? It would be really cool if the gate could work because the warlock would love an arena wide attack.

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Halewijn

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Re: What exactly happened with gate to hell?
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2017, 09:56:29 AM »
There are no plans on making any errata pack. As far as I know, they prefer bringing out new sets. I'm sorry if I insinuated anything else in my previous post.
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Sailor Vulcan

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Re: What exactly happened with gate to hell?
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2017, 11:50:51 AM »
There are no plans on making any errata pack. As far as I know, they prefer bringing out new sets. I'm sorry if I insinuated anything else in my previous post.
Oh I know. But that's not at all what im talking about. Future sets or later editions of the same sets is what im talking about. Gate to hell has already been errated once and it still isn't usable. That's why I'm asking what happens with it and why it ended up like that.

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Beldin

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Re: What exactly happened with gate to hell?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2017, 03:26:53 PM »
Some cards have a low bar power level and as far I can see that is not changing. Without a way to cast Gate to Hell at a lower mana cost then it will not be viable. However this potentially unbalanaces idol of pestilence and the like.

Zuberi

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Re: What exactly happened with gate to hell?
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2017, 04:19:19 PM »
I don't think it was ever meant to be the most effective card. It's a really cool flashy spell made for Timmy players. Similar to Talos or Altar of Skulls. However, even though these cards are meant to lean more towards "cool" than they are "powerful" or "efficient" I think that Gate to Hell did miss the mark by a bit. The problem is it's TOO situational even for Timmy's, as it isn't going to make enough of a difference. The passive benefit just isn't worth the initial cost and you can't count on "opening" it to be that useful.

I suspect that they upped the initial casting cost to try and keep the "opening" cost down. I don't know for sure, as I wasn't around at that time, but that's how I'd personally fix it. If it was changed to cost something around 8 or 9 mana to cast and like 16 to "open" I think people would use it. It'd be worth the initial cost just for the Melee boost then, similar to the totems for animals. And then you'd still see players, especially Timmys, "opening" it in certain situations. Like when your opponent has 4+ creatures more than you (and yours are flame resistant/immune)

DaveW

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Re: What exactly happened with gate to hell?
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2017, 07:07:15 PM »
What is a Timmy?
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Enti

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Re: What exactly happened with gate to hell?
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2017, 07:46:32 PM »
What is a Timmy?

Ha, I was wondering the same. From the context I'd conclude something among the lines of "casual gamers"

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Re: What exactly happened with gate to hell?
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2017, 12:28:17 AM »
Jimmy, Timmy and Spike are the three "archetype" players. Jimmy is sometimes called Johnny. But they each represent a style of play or a type of player that espouses a particular way of enjoying the game. Timmy enjoys "cool or flashy" cards. In reality Timmy is a power gamer in the literal sense. He wants huge effects and big bombastic cards that effect everything.
Johnny is a cobmo card builder. Looking for cool interactions and synergies with his cards.
Spike is competitive. Spike wants to win all the time so he plays the "most competitive" books always because they have the best chance to win. Players like Hanma who played wizard exclusively In tourney because he's "the best mage" are good examples of Spikes.

Gate to hell is a huge arena wide effect, that has two functions and huge mana costs. This is timmys kind of spell, timmy likes this huge sort of power gamey type of effect
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Zuberi

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Re: What exactly happened with gate to hell?
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2017, 04:56:29 AM »
This is my favorite article on the subject of Timmy, Johnny, and Spike.

As they put it, Timmy wants to experience something. That's why they play games. They want a good story with excitement and flashy spells. Or maybe they just want to spend time with friends. They're there more to have fun than to be competitive.

Johnny wants to express themself. They like to come up with unique combos or deck/book ideas. They'll place arbitrary limits on themselves for the sake of style (like a Priest who uses all demons). They'll try to make subpar cards and strategies work just to show that they can. They're all about the creativity that the game allows.

Spike wants to prove something. They're competitors who like to see how good they can be at playing and/or building a deck/book. They're playing primarily to win.

Most of us are a mix of these archetypes. Usually only one or two provide your primary motivation though. For example, I definitely try to win every time I play. It's not completely irrelevant to me. And I definitely enjoy socializing and having cool stories come out of my games. But I'm really a hard core Johnny at heart. That's my single biggest motivation. The entire joy of the game for me comes from how creative I can be within it. I made an entire book using just Unicorns, lol. If someone gave me a tournament champion book to play with, I wouldn't have anywhere near the fun using it to win as I do when I'm losing with my Unicorn book.

Tom Vassel is a Timmy, if you ever watch his reviews. That's why so many people on here disagree with him. These forums seem to be mostly populated with Spikes and Johnnys, so when he starts talking about how awesome a card Sardonyx is, we start wondering if he's even looking at the same cards we are. Or playing the same game. And that's the thing. He's NOT. He's going into it from a completely different angle. These spells are exciting and make for good stories, and that's what he's after. He doesn't care that much about how effective it is at winning. He cares how cool it is.

That's the kind of player that Gate to Hell is made for. I think it misses the mark a little bit, because even the most die hard Timmy doesn't want to completely shoot themself in the foot. "I committed suicide by opening a Gate to Hell" does not make the kind of story they want (usually). This card doesn't need to be something that everyone, or even most people, would want to run. But I do think it could have been done a little better.

The reason I bring this up is because it's important to keep in mind when designing games like this. We need to constantly come out with cards for every type of player. Which means some people are going to look at cards that weren't made for them and wonder "what's the point?" The point is that it appeals to a different type of player than yourself.

So, when evaluating Gate to Hell, it only needs to be made "good enough" to see play. We need to focus on keeping it cool and exciting. A lowered initial mana cost makes it a very useful buff that's worth having out every game. However, the high level and sbp cost means it's not really worth putting in your book JUST for the buff. Spikes will still probably avoid it. But a Timmy will see that they can use it every game for that buff, and maybe, MAYBE, they'll get the right situation to where opening it will be worth it. And that, will be awesome. That is worth including it.

Again, I'm not a Timmy though, just trying my best to think like one. This is exactly the reason why different types of play testers and view points are needed.

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Re: What exactly happened with gate to hell?
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2017, 08:19:10 AM »
For me the Gate to Hell spell has more value for the Adramelech Warlock than any other mage. Her abilities combine Flame, Burn, and Demons and GtH does the same. As a simple Melee buff for Demons it is 5 mana more and a full action compared to the animal totems in the Nature school. However, you get a very tough conjuration for that investment with 3 armor and 11 health. This means it is likely to be around when you need to open the gate for the arena-wide Flame attack.

The closest comparison of spells I can think of is a combination of Tsunami (Multi-zone attack) and an animal totem (Melee +1 ). This combo costs 5 spell points  (if fully trained in nature and water), 21 mana, and a quick and full action. For this cost and combo you are still lacking the full arena attack and the ability to summon creatures in another location. So the costs of GtH seems in line with other spells providing similar effects IN COMBINATION.

The challenge is to create a strategy that uses this combination effectively. For example, the Infernian Scounger is a great combo with GtH and the Adramelech Warlock as the +1 melee is earned with each counterstrike as well.
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