December 17, 2017, 02:07:35 AM

Author Topic: 2 Questions  (Read 190 times)

Enti

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2 Questions
« on: July 29, 2017, 03:07:23 PM »
Hello Mage Wars community (and especially Zuberi :p)

2 questions came up in my recent games:


My falcon wanted to attack Fellella. I had initiative (not sure if that's even important).

Now. I have a hidden Falcon Precision. Fellella has an innate 6+ defense and has a hidden block.

The Falcon attacks the familiar.
My opponent - probably prematurely [because OCTGN asked him to] reveals his block. After that I reveal my Falcon Precision. He already paid 2 mana.


My problem is the following:

In a tournament - if I am the attacker - I'd politely ask him in the "Declare Attack step" if he wants to reveal anything. And at that point the would very probably reveal his block. Paying the mana.
And then, I would reveal my Falcon Precision in the fourth step, "Avoid Attack". In magic you would just say it was a misplay to reveal the block too early. I guess.
But I am not sure, what is the correct way of doing it?

I understand, that I probably have priority at the beginning of each step. So strictly speaking if I ask him in the fourth step, if he wants to reveal anything, I have passed my initiative and I am not allowed to reveal FP anymore. But if I ask in the first step, so when I "declare" the attack, it's hit "fault" for revealing it too early?

Not that I'd ever be so nitpicky, just curious how to handle this situation. :p
We just played it like this, he revealed Block, I then revealed FP and he got his 2 mana back. That's probably how you'd do it in most cases. But my question remains, how would you handle it in a highly competitive environment?


---

Second question, about block/dodge as well:

He has a hidden block/dodge. My Falcon has a daze/fumble.
Falcon attacks the creature with a block/dodge.
What happens?

My guess: With fumble, neither block nor dodge is triggered. Because you did non end the declare attack step.
But according to the supplement, once the declare step is successfully passed, it is considered an "attack". Thus it should trigger block/dodge even if he never even has to use the defense?
It's probably not intended to work like this, but the wording on block is pretty clear, isn't it?
"When this creature is attacked, you must reveal Block [...]"
And the supplement says: "Once the Declare Attack Step is completed, the melee attack is in progress"

Looking forward to reading your opinions.

jacksmack

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Re: 2 Questions
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2017, 04:04:51 PM »
Falcon Precision cannot be revealed as a counter to block and reverse attack unless you reveal it prior to the avoid attack step.

Block and Reverse attack specifically says must be revealed during the step which is different from the basic rules for when enchantments can be revealed. (only between steps.)

This situation vs fellella is a bit weird because you should have revealed your Precision prior to the attack anyway (,after moving into zone, to see if you get slow or something,) for it to work against her defense.
I think you did the right ruling here.


If you dont get to the avoid attack step for whatever reason, then block stays facedown.
Such reasons could be fumble, Divine intervention, Force Shield.

Regarding if failing a daze check triggers mandatory reveals in avoid attack step is not answered in the material available to me on this PC.
I see that damage barrier will not trigger and that the defender still gets to counter strike.

My guess is block stays facedown.

jacksmack

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Re: 2 Questions
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2017, 04:07:34 PM »
Remeber that it says: must reveal during the avoid attack step. not just 'must reveal'.

So if we skip that step or the sequence is terminated prior to that, then it will stay face down.

It's a matter of failing a daze check will skip the step or not. (we know its not terminating the sequence, because double/tripple strike gets another attempt and also counterstrike works.).

Zuberi

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Re: 2 Questions
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2017, 04:33:14 PM »
By the rules, there isn't ever a timing issue between Block and Falcon Precision. Block is revealed during the Avoid Attack Step due to it's mandatory reveal requirement. It can not be revealed at any other time without being canceled and discarded. Meanwhile, Falcon Precision as a voluntary reveal can only be revealed after a phase, step, or activation. Which means it can not be revealed DURING the Avoid Attack step. It would need to be revealed, at the very latest, after the Roll to Miss step. So, if you go through everything step by step sequentially, there is never a timing issue and the Falcon Precision would always be revealed first (before you know there is a Block).

Now, practically, when you're at the table or on OCTGN, you don't typically go through every single step. Perhaps you should at a tournament, but you're already pressed for time. So, I can't answer how a tournament would handle the situation, for that I'd recommend getting Silverclawgrizzly to weigh in, but personally if the person had revealed the Block prematurely I'd let them keep their mana because there's no way they could reveal it before the Falcon Precision without it fizzling. Meaning they clearly thought they were already in the Avoid Attack step.

With Daze and Fumble, the rulebook states that when an attack Misses, it skips to the Additional strikes step. Block would therefore not be triggered because it happens during the Avoid Attack step. Dodge is a little more problematic though. Because it's an Academy card, and Academy has a different series of steps than Arena, it is written in such a way that says it actually gets revealed BEFORE Daze even occurs, immediately after the Declare Attack step. This means that it would get used up despite a Daze or Fumble. Because it triggers before Daze happens, and it triggers at the same time as Fumble and the trigger is mandatory even if Fumble gets revealed first and makes it irrelevant. But that is how it would work according to the rules.

Edit: I deleted an opinion statement that was maybe a bit too harsh. I just really dislike that Academy and Arena are such very different games but they keep shoehorning them together. I really think they should be completely separate.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 04:35:45 PM by Zuberi »

Enti

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Re: 2 Questions
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2017, 06:22:40 PM »
Okay.

If Block can only be revealed during the "avoid attack" phase then there is no problem.

Same with Dodge. If Dodge has to be revealed in the "declare attack" step, then there are no further questions as well.

Thank you for your fast answer, both of you :)

silverclawgrizzly

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Re: 2 Questions
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2017, 06:53:30 PM »
Well I heard my name and was thinking of chiming in anyway. I'm not gonna touch the second question cause Zuberi more or less covered it. I will give basic feedback on how I'd handle it were I judging a tournament and it came up. First thing I'd do is give the actual word for word of how this works. Technically speaking yes Zuberi is right Falcon Precision is revealed first if you go through the step by step process so it's sort of a non-issue. But I've never once in 4 years of playing Mage Wars seen anyone including myself go "Ok now this phase, now this one, etc" all the way through the attack. With that being said I'd rule the guy who revealed Block prematurely gets his mana back and then smacked upside the head with whatever has Falcon Precision.

I can imagine it's possible some players might get all stickler and irritating about it in a super competitive tournament, but I don't find it particularly likely. I mean the guy who's attacking can't complain cause he's getting to make his attack and the guy taking the hit can't complain cause he's getting his mana back.
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