December 17, 2017, 02:07:21 AM

Author Topic: tsunami & resplendent bow (not at the same time)  (Read 487 times)

exid

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tsunami & resplendent bow (not at the same time)
« on: September 03, 2017, 06:09:28 AM »
we had two doubt yesterday:

1) does tsunami need LoS for the second attack (if it went throw a wall, for example)?
we assumed not, since it's not written that the new zone has to be targeted.

2) does the healing of resplendent bow increase with its attack?
we assumed not, since it's not written that the healing is equal to the damages.

RomeoXero

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Re: tsunami & resplendent bow (not at the same time)
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2017, 07:31:04 AM »
1) no
2) no

The tsunami continues on the full length of the area and then stops.

When using the healing from the bow, you're not actually making an attack so range + does nothing.
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Puddnhead

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Re: tsunami & resplendent bow (not at the same time)
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2017, 07:45:54 AM »
Tsunami actually does require line of sight because ALL attacks require line of sight. The only exception is attacks with the indirect trait.

Tsunami is a very strange spell that doesn't work intuitively to the real world, but follows all the rules of the game exactly.  The push is always away from the caster and each attack must be in line of sight of the caster.

So the short answer is Yes for Tsunami and No for Resplendent Bow
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wtcannonjr

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Re: tsunami & resplendent bow (not at the same time)
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2017, 09:03:56 AM »
Tsunami actually does require line of sight because ALL attacks require line of sight. The only exception is attacks with the indirect trait.

Tsunami is a very strange spell that doesn't work intuitively to the real world, but follows all the rules of the game exactly.  The push is always away from the caster and each attack must be in line of sight of the caster.

So the short answer is Yes for Tsunami and No for Resplendent Bow
Even though it may not be RAW we play Tsunami as a special attack as follows. The initial zone for the spell follows the RAW for range and targeting. The Tsunami also requires the spellcaster to select a direction. We then use that direction for the subsequent Push effects and direction for future attacks. As a special effect of the spell the attack is repeated in each zone along the direction selected by the spellcaster. i.e. consider a repeating Force Push spell as being cast with a zone-wide effect that also includes the zone attack spell itself. We have not required these subsequent attacks to be in LOS of the original spellcaster as we consider the Tsunami as a 'moving effect' and the source of future attacks. i.e. similar to the effect the Water Elemental has to follow its target into the zone it was pushed. We treat the Tsunami effect as similar to a Trap Enchantment spell being triggered behind a wall that is blocking LOS. We have always played that the Trap spell still attacks the target as it is now the source of the attack.

If subsequent Tsunami attacks require LOS to the original spellcaster, then this lowers the overall value of the spell in our meta. It would be helpful for the Supplement to clarify this spell, since the effect is so unique. It might be useful to consider an Attack Trait (e.g. "Sustained") or expand on the Zone attack rules to define how 'multi-zone' attacks work.

[Edit: I discovered that the supplement does have an entry for Tsunami that clarifies the spell. The description I provided above is just our house rule and not RAW.]
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 08:03:33 PM by wtcannonjr »
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zot

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Re: tsunami & resplendent bow (not at the same time)
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2017, 09:16:27 AM »
puddn is correct for how the spell functions.  and tsunami is probably one of the most complex spells in the game. it ivites much confusion as a result since the way it functions is not intuitive
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 09:18:55 AM by zot »

exid

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Re: tsunami & resplendent bow (not at the same time)
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2017, 09:57:14 AM »
ok...
everybody seems to agree about the bow.

with the tsunamy, I got the two contradictory answers! does the second, third, etc., attacks need the LoS? (for example if it passes a wall that cuts LoS or a steep hill)
and about the push I think the caster can choose the direction for each push.

RomeoXero

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Re: tsunami & resplendent bow (not at the same time)
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2017, 10:38:48 AM »
They do need line of sight and im sorry bout the quick answer but it requires line of sight from the caster not the wave itself. In this way it can go through walls at an angle.
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exid

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Re: tsunami & resplendent bow (not at the same time)
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2017, 11:01:36 AM »
They do need line of sight and im sorry bout the quick answer but it requires line of sight from the caster not the wave itself. In this way it can go through walls at an angle.
;D
your quick answer was very clear (and I got to the same conclusion), but the others say that the attacks need LoS... who's right?

RomeoXero

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Re: tsunami & resplendent bow (not at the same time)
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2017, 11:07:48 AM »
It DOES require line of sight from the caster, so an intervening wall doesnt necessarily block line of sight for the next attack on the next zone.
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Zuberi

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Re: tsunami & resplendent bow (not at the same time)
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2017, 01:30:07 PM »
Romeo has admitted that their original answer was made in haste, so now everyone is in agreement that all of Tsunami's attacks require LoS. As others have said, this is because all attacks require LoS unless otherwise stated. Another way to think about Tsunami is as a series of attacks. Each zone is a different attack and you do the whole thing over again, tracing LoS, rolling dice, determining Push direction from the caster, etc. That's basically what it is.

I admit that this causes a little trouble with intuition regarding walls, because sometimes a wall will stop it and sometimes it won't, all depending on if the caster can see past. Which doesn't really make sense why that should matter. Personally I think walls should always stop the Tsunami. Afterall, a Tsunami is only 3 to 4 feet tall, and if the walls aren't tall enough to handle that then I have trouble believing that any of them actually function as walls at all. I know others think differently, that walls should never stop it, imagining more of a blockbuster fantasy of how Tsunami's work. Which, it is a world of magic, so that could definitely be made the case. The problem really isn't which option is true, but rather the inconsistent fact that it relies on what the caster can see. And I don't have a thematic explanation for why LoS matters. It's entirely due to the fact that Tsunami must follow normal rules.

Theme aside, I also like having walls stop Tsunami because it gives you a way to defend against it. You have to do it before the Tsunami is cast, you can't just screw up a Tsunami in progress, so you're not robbing your opponent of cost effectiveness. If you've made Tsunami be not worth the cost, then they simply won't cast it. That's fair play in my opinion. But yeah, it all depends on if they can see past or not.

exid

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Re: tsunami & resplendent bow (not at the same time)
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2017, 01:39:27 PM »
It DOES require line of sight from the caster, so an intervening wall doesnt necessarily block line of sight for the next attack on the next zone.
oups, misunderstood!

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Re: tsunami & resplendent bow (not at the same time)
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2017, 01:40:07 PM »
The source of all of Tsunami's attacks is the caster of Tsunami. Therefore all attacks it makes must be within line of sight to the caster and all push effects must push the target away from the caster. That is RAW (rules as written). If you attend a tournament for Mage Wars this is how Tsunami will function. I am not saying that you and your friends can't play it differently, but I prefer to use the same ruleset for every game.
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exid

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Re: tsunami & resplendent bow (not at the same time)
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2017, 01:45:46 PM »
As others have said, this is because all attacks require LoS unless otherwise stated.
ok: during the declare attack step you have to target.
thanks!

about walls, it's really unrealistic that seeing the other side changes anything, but I think a tsunami can be 10 meters high and go over any wall!
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 01:51:12 PM by exid »

DaveW

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Re: tsunami & resplendent bow (not at the same time)
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2017, 03:23:40 PM »
A couple of side notes on the bow:

Zuberi also answered a Bow question (note that I misspelled the name of the bow back then)

http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=16911.msg70777#msg70777

In this case it was regarding the level of the mage increasing the number of dice rolled for healing, and the answer was no... it was always two dice. Also, it doesn't help to have the healer's ring, since you aren't casting a spell when healing with the bow.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 03:26:44 PM by DaveW »
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exid

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Re: tsunami & resplendent bow (not at the same time)
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2017, 12:30:10 AM »
all push effects must push the target away from the caster.
where do you find that in the rules?