February 25, 2018, 05:16:06 PM

Author Topic: The future of Mage Wars  (Read 4697 times)

exid

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 748
  • Banana Stickers 3
  • The longer the better!
    • View Profile
Re: The future of Mage Wars
« Reply #105 on: January 08, 2018, 12:54:02 AM »
I don't see why Germans, French or any other nationality/language should have less intelligent people compared to any smaller country and not be able to play the English versions?

It's a cultural thing.
English is very used in Sweden... in Germany and in France we learn a little english, spanish or italian, at school, but we often prefer to speak, to hear, to read, to play in our own language.

France I agree with, but not Germany. I spent 6.5 years working for a German multinational, and was over at head office every other month. The company official language for all meetings beyond department level was English, all staff from the canteen, to support staff to the board spoke very fluent English, and I use to socialise after hours with quite a few people, and even had a relationship with a German girl for 18 months. The picture I built up (and they were very proud of) was that everyone spoke good English, and felt comfortable using it - I can't speak German beyond a few tourist basics, and menus btw.

I've had similar experiences on the German/Dutch border and in Berlin, but in both cases my contact has been more limited to 'tourist-facing' people. I've also travelled across former East-Germany, but had less social contact there - I'd imagine English is much less spoken there, except amongst the youngest generation perhaps. We did have one interesting discussion with a mortuary worker during a dissection we were witnessing, where neither his English nor our German covered specific organ names and biological processes, but since we all had A-Level or degree Biology, we could communicate longhand by describing organ functions!

Some years later, and purely by coincidence, by fiancee is British, but speaks fluent German (attended a German-Swiss school from 4-18), and 3 of her last 4 jobs have been explicitly German-speaking and liaising with companies in Germany, as well as doing translation work. She reports much the same - with the odd exception, most people she speaks to in a German company  actually enjoy speaking English, and try to steer conversations to English, rather than German.

Just to add a third datapoint (admittedly less robust). On numerous similar discussions on BoardGameGeek and Kickstarter a lot of German players have said they prefer to get English copies of games, rather than German. That is probably something of a self-selecting sample however, as I'm reading those comments  from people who are happy and able to post on English language sites and threads to start with, and it makes sense that their playgroups (both family and friends) would often be similar.
I think it depends on the school training (international scientific doctors need more english than local bakers!).
I like that people speak different languages, which bring different visions of the world when we meet and learn to speak each other's. It worths some translation expenses!

I prefer to play with english cards to avoid the translation mistakes. I prefer to come on the english forum to speak with people that are close to AW.
But I'm clearly not as clear, as precise, in my reading and in my writing as if it was in french. And my children don't speak enough english (yet?), so they bought french and german cards, and we have to translate every "burn"-"enflammé"-"in brand" when playing...


jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 990
  • Banana Stickers 18
    • View Profile
Re: The future of Mage Wars
« Reply #106 on: January 08, 2018, 05:01:18 AM »
- The game is to long
This I think scare new players off. It looks and feels like a 45 min to 1h game. At least that is what people expect it to be based on their inner comparison with MtG. Now an average game is more like 2h, and that is way to long for this format. At least to attract a larger player pool. Same thing with Academy in fact. It is to long for what it gives. And to be honest MtG does this format much better, why Arena is the way to go for Mage Wars.

I find that the long games are too long. Not the average or even fast games.
Usually (very) the long games are caused by a bad assessment of one of the players within the first 3 rounds.
Can my mage / book go longer than my opponents?

Another reason why games drag out is that its very difficult to 'attack' in this game because guard markers carry over from last round. In its essence it just means that my grizzly takes 2 attacks from his grizzly in the same round i choose to attack his grizzly once.
It took me many many many games before i learned this what you would think is a simple thing... how to open up for attacking.

Some times i wish that the arena somehow was excately 1 zone smaller, in the sense that the distance from starting zones would be 1 less without making the arena smaller. I believe this would make rushes more viable.

- Armor issue
This bullet is very connected to the first one. In my mind armor and defense are two functions that prolong the game in a less desired way. Thematic it is great. But it is frequently seen that both mages and creatures stack a lot of armor which basically neglects 1/3 of all die rolls. This isn't very inspiring for an opponent. On top this is armor stacking very efficient and a good strategy as well. I would say most Armor spells should have been much more expensive.

Armor issue is a disaster. This is probably the biggest flaw in this game. And apparently AW does not understand this which is a catastrophe.
Armor issue has always been there. Since release.

First catastrophe:
Wizard voltaric shield + armor + Passive regeneration.

Second catastrophe:
Druid treebond - or lifebond. Also you can add vinemarkers to this equation since it also slows the game down in the sense that rushing vs a druid is impossible.

And as if lifebond is not completely and insanly overpowered in itself they also added Barkskin.

Third catastrophe:
Veterans Belt. Congratulations... you have now broken Mage Wars.
If i express my self further regarding this card, i will probably be banned from the forums, so ill leave it at this.


- Destructive spells.
Same thinking as with the Armor issue. Every time you design a card that makes something destructive, and removes something from your opponent, you should think twice before releasing it or determine a cost for it because it will only prolong the game in an unfun manner. Spells like: Dispel, Siphone, Mana worm, Enfeeble, etc. These cards should also had been much more expensive.

I think making armor more expensive would fix this one, as it would also make the removal more expensive.
We got ward stones to help vs enchantments, and these actually work when played right. (Early on i thought they were unusable, but they can be great.)
Otherwise you are right.

- Effect issue
There are too many effects! For new people this is a jungle. In one game I tried to explain the difference of Rot and Bleed. They are basically the same, so why make a new version of it? All these tiny rules will act as a huge barrier for new player to get into the game.

I agree. And its not only markers. Hindered, slow, unmoveable, restrained.
oh... and just slam on its own...

- Ability issue
Wow, look at all these cool creature and conjurations abilities! Well, for new players this can be overwhelming. When each creature has its unique ability and none are just vanilla. Sometimes I play with the thought that what if most creatures were standard creatures and abilities came from the Conjurations, Enchantment and Mages?

I don't think that the creatures is the problem. They are learned pretty easy and because they are all cool i have not experienced the time it takes to be a bad investment.

Effects on the other hand....

Also.. learning the attack sequence is too complex in particular in relation to when to reveal what.

- Card pool count
In revers to several others in here I think the card pool is too large. That is at least the impression I get talking to "mugglers". There is no life cycle of cards. The pool just grow and grow and grow. It is even hard for me to keep track of all cards. Maybe a better format how to use the cards is needed?

I think the pool is okay to be honest. I also think its pretty few new spells that actually comes in expansions.
But ofc... over the years it adds up.

- Critical player count
I hope this isn't too late. But one big reason the game doesn't take off more, at least not in my area, is that a game needs a certain player count to grow from. MW had the chance when it was released but never really came up to that critical level when the crowd could bring in new players by itself. Now head hunting for new players are down to just a few dedicated persons globally, which is not enough. I bet one reason AW don't release new content as often for Arena is that for each release the sells figures has gone down down down.

Spot on.

I'm not too concerned about the release schedule. Actually I think it is just fine. What is missing is a clear well communicated plan for it though. Like: "Every year there will be one Arena release in April and one Academy release in November". Here AW must improve.
I guess it all boils down to what type of game and community we would like to have. Are we and AW looking for a prospering community I think the game needs a remake of some sort. Otherwise it will be you guys who are currently playing the game who will keep doing it, no one else unfortunately.

Spot on. 0 and or bad communication is so frustrating.

The introduction of Academy was really poor in my view. Marketing and production quality were ok, but the choice of mages were horrible. I can't understand how a mana-canceling wizard could end up as one of the basic mages in the core box? Why put in a "super advanced" mage whose only purpose is to deny the opponent to do "anything"? When I was demoing this the first year at one of Sweden’s larges conventions I got the same comment each time: "The beastmaster was cool, but the Wizard just made the game boring". Note, these were the only two mages available by then. Sure there are several to choose from today, but the train has already left...

So true. AW needs to look up the word 'anticlimax'.
I know that a small pool of players think controlling is fun. But i can assure you that many players will walk away with a very bad taste in the mouth after getting trolled for 3 or 4 hours by an experience undo wizard.

jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 990
  • Banana Stickers 18
    • View Profile
Re: The future of Mage Wars
« Reply #107 on: January 08, 2018, 05:10:57 AM »
oh... and catrastrophe 4:
Necromancer.... build in poison immunity.... GREAT IDEA!!!!!!!

jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 990
  • Banana Stickers 18
    • View Profile
Re: The future of Mage Wars
« Reply #108 on: January 08, 2018, 05:46:25 AM »
oh oh oh.... intercept.... Another reason why you cant kill a mage.

Obsidian Soul

  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
  • Banana Stickers 1
    • View Profile
Re: The future of Mage Wars
« Reply #109 on: January 08, 2018, 07:09:33 AM »
I rarely have games that last more than an hour nowadays.  When I was down visiting silverclawgrizzly, we played three casual games in three hours, and we were testing out new spellbooks.  Even my Priestess has gotten to the point where the games do not last more than an hour, and you have to deal 80 points of damage to reliably kill her.

I agree about banning the Veterans Belt.  I think that changing the nature of dice results (changing critical damage from any source to normal damage) is far too powerful, especially for one spellpoint, and it is too complicated.  I think that it should just give the Mage Aegis 1, representing the survival instincts of a veteran warrior.

fas723

  • Sr. Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: The future of Mage Wars
« Reply #110 on: January 08, 2018, 07:43:52 AM »
Regarding play time, it is most likely possible to trim it down to an hour or so. But this takes time to master and experience from the player. They should know thier book very well, and also what thier opponent book might contain. And for this to work, both player must have this knowlege...

@Jacksmack:
Thanks! Glad you also can see all this. Regarding the creature abilities you are probably right too. I just stated a couple of isssue that together makes the game hard for a new player to like it. I would guess if all other bullets were fixed the creature ability issue would instead turn into a good flavour in the game.



Reddicediaries

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1026
  • Banana Stickers 1
  • Out of the ashes, a new power will rise.
    • View Profile
Re: The future of Mage Wars
« Reply #111 on: January 08, 2018, 07:54:57 AM »
oh oh oh.... intercept.... Another reason why you cant kill a mage.
I don't find this to be really the case.
Often times I don't want to work around the angel, I just want to kill it.
If it had 4 dmg already, a single focused strike with your paladin's 5 dice attack (you should have the sword and dawnbreaker's ring out at this point), is often a kill shot.
So many people focus on working around the interceptor, just kill it and your problem is solved in most games.
The Phoenix shall rise.

Obsidian Soul

  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
  • Banana Stickers 1
    • View Profile
Re: The future of Mage Wars
« Reply #112 on: January 08, 2018, 11:00:04 AM »
Guardian Angels tend to be difficult to kill, even with unavoidable attacks, especially if the Priestess/Priest playing them can support them.  In the case of the Priestess, it is usually worth a Minor Heal to keep their Guardian Angel alive because she usually also gains one permanent life from the spell, especially if the Minor Heal is on a Mage Wand.

jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 990
  • Banana Stickers 18
    • View Profile
Re: The future of Mage Wars
« Reply #113 on: January 08, 2018, 12:51:58 PM »
oh oh oh.... intercept.... Another reason why you cant kill a mage.
I don't find this to be really the case.
Often times I don't want to work around the angel, I just want to kill it.
If it had 4 dmg already, a single focused strike with your paladin's 5 dice attack (you should have the sword and dawnbreaker's ring out at this point), is often a kill shot.
So many people focus on working around the interceptor, just kill it and your problem is solved in most games.

Perhaps a paladin  Can this with his re roll ability. Rest is nonsense.
No 1 else can kill it effectively.

Reddicediaries

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1026
  • Banana Stickers 1
  • Out of the ashes, a new power will rise.
    • View Profile
Re: The future of Mage Wars
« Reply #114 on: January 08, 2018, 02:57:48 PM »
oh oh oh.... intercept.... Another reason why you cant kill a mage.
I don't find this to be really the case.
Often times I don't want to work around the angel, I just want to kill it.
If it had 4 dmg already, a single focused strike with your paladin's 5 dice attack (you should have the sword and dawnbreaker's ring out at this point), is often a kill shot.
So many people focus on working around the interceptor, just kill it and your problem is solved in most games.

Perhaps a paladin  Can this with his re roll ability. Rest is nonsense.
No 1 else can kill it effectively.
I can't agree here.
War Mages: Focused Strike with a buffed creature and you can kill an angel if you get a slightly above average roll. Obviously you want to do this when the angel is already damaged, but it is very doable is played right in my opinion. Paladin can also just use focused strike on himself and challenge on the angel to have a good shot at taking it out.
Holy Mages: This is a bit harder, but still not that hard. Priestess and Priestess can blast it (sure they can dodge, but if you then hit them with a buffed up allandel, it's not looking good for the angel). Holy Avenger Griffin also will do well as long as the dice are average.
Nature Mages: Tanglevine the angel and just murder it with a buffed up bear, eagle wings and falcon percision the bear, use tons of ranged attacks with johktari (the angel can't dodge them all). Pretty good counters here.
Dark mages: Necro's can just curse it and warlocks can use buffed up unavoidable attacks combined with creature hits to kill it fast. The lash and chant of rage also work wonders.
Forcemaster: Nothing to say as I don't play forcemaster
Siren: Nothing to say as I don't play siren.
Wizard: Make use out of your own guards and ranged attacks. Eventually you will win the battle.
Lots of good counters to angels in my honest opinion.
The Phoenix shall rise.

Kelanen

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1093
  • Banana Stickers 1
    • View Profile
Re: The future of Mage Wars
« Reply #115 on: January 10, 2018, 06:39:53 AM »
Honestly, if the armour, and defences weren't there, it wouldn't be a game I was playing. It would just be another short aggressive game, of which their are tons. I like it BECAUSE it's a much longer game. At it's heart, MW is a miniatures skirmish game, not a board or card game - it's market (and game length) should be compared to Malifaux, Heroclix, Warmachine and 40k, not MtG, etc...

But whilst we're on the MtG comparison - the card pool is too small, not too big. It's currently around a full block in size (and a large number of those cards are essentially unusable outside of Academy). It does definitely need more cards, and more releases, but the card pool is not to big (I have to think it's the wrong game for anyone that thinks that - the whole living card game format is wrong for that person).

As noted, there are plenty of counters to everything, including armour and regeneration. But Arena was never designed to be a short game - Academy is that. Arena is designed to be a much longer game, from teh core set onwards.

exid

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 748
  • Banana Stickers 3
  • The longer the better!
    • View Profile
Re: The future of Mage Wars
« Reply #116 on: January 10, 2018, 07:00:37 AM »
I prefere my MW games over 3 hours, when the first attack fails and we have to find something else...
After 4-6-8 hours building, it's a little frustrating when I win or loose in 1h30!

In my groupe we don't like long waiting games, so we don't have problems with armor (even with veteran's belt), but I understand it can be boring when the other player stacks armor and waits for you to have to go to work! 

Obsidian Soul

  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
  • Banana Stickers 1
    • View Profile
Re: The future of Mage Wars
« Reply #117 on: January 10, 2018, 07:14:17 AM »
I really cannot image playing a three hour game anymore.  I have usually played 75% of my cards by 60 minutes and I have had plenty of games where both people emptied their books by 60 minutes.  At that point, it usually comes down to Creature superiority, especially since all of the Wands are long gone.

Sailor Vulcan

  • Secret Identity: Imaginator
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3022
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: The future of Mage Wars
« Reply #118 on: January 10, 2018, 09:21:02 AM »
I really cannot image playing a three hour game anymore.  I have usually played 75% of my cards by 60 minutes and I have had plenty of games where both people emptied their books by 60 minutes.  At that point, it usually comes down to Creature superiority, especially since all of the Wands are long gone.
I'm really curious about your local meta obsidian. Which sets do you use? Why can't you kill the enemy mage before they manage to amass so many creatures? And why do you need to summon so many of your own?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using Tapatalk
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster
I am Sailor Vulcan! Champion of justice and reason! And yes, I am already aware my uniform is considered flashy, unprofessional, and borderline sexually provocative for my species by most intelligent lifeforms. I did not choose this outfit. Shut up.

Obsidian Soul

  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
  • Banana Stickers 1
    • View Profile
Re: The future of Mage Wars
« Reply #119 on: January 10, 2018, 10:14:16 AM »
I do not play that much right now, but in my old group with steelclawgrizzly, we would usually have 6-12 creatures in each discard before the end of the game (Beastmasters tended to lose more because of the number of small creatures, so it was not unknown for a Beastmaster to have 12 creatures in his discard while the Priestess or Priest would have only 6 creatures).  I regularly had games with steelclawgrizzly where we would run out of creatures to summon and we would be chasing each other around with what was left (two Steelclaw Grizzlies versus two Guardian Angels and two Knights of Westlock was not an unknown situation).  Depending on the iteration of our spellbooks, we could have stripped all of the enchantments and equipment off each Mage as well.