July 16, 2019, 09:32:00 AM

Author Topic: Organized Play  (Read 7455 times)

zot

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Re: Organized Play
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2017, 12:48:23 PM »
honestly for tie breakers most are somewhat arbitrary. after hearing it and really considering it, i am more of the opinion that ties are ties. and no breaker.

zot

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Re: Organized Play
« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2017, 12:52:49 PM »
if you have to have one, which i do not think you do, most or least points in the graveyard. whichever you choose can have solid argument against it. most points means i have either been very active, or have had a lot of stuff killed. least points, perhaps i have been super efficient, or turtling and hoarding mana for very large things. either way does not give a good indication of who is winning. looking at the board state, cards left in the book is the best way to forecast an eventual winner. but that is not possible. hence ties should be just that. ties.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 01:30:11 PM by zot »

silverclawgrizzly

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Re: Organized Play
« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2017, 01:07:51 PM »
Yeah I thought about graveyard points too.
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Re: Organized Play
« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2017, 01:29:30 PM »
I haven't completely thought it all through, but does life differential get any closer to accurate than just life remaining?

By that I mean compare (Player 1 Ending Life + Player 2 Ending Damage)||(Player 2 Ending Life + Player 1 Ending Damage).

This way you combine life remaining with damage dealt and the bigger number wins the ties? Like I said I haven't completely thought it through, but seems like it would have a more accurate picture of what each player has actually done during the game.
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zot

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Re: Organized Play
« Reply #49 on: December 21, 2017, 01:37:22 PM »
really does not help. for example. if the game were to go one more turn, but cannot because time is called and we have ended the game, yet if i were to get initiative and have an excellent chance to kill the opponent on that turn, life differential or remaining or whatever comparison makes no difference. this was mentioned by someone else earlier as an example but points out no matter what tie breaker you use, it does not really indicate who is winning or who would likely win if there was no time limit.

but the fact is we have time limits for all kinds of reasons. and some games will go to time. this thread has been attempting to hash through how best to handle that situation. no matter how it is decided someone will be unhappy with the decision. cannot be helped. but the discussion has been good.

Coshade

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Re: Organized Play
« Reply #50 on: December 21, 2017, 02:24:37 PM »
Clearly the way to settle a game that goes to time is rolling a d20, highest score gets the win and points.  8)
We could call a situation like that "Battle Dice" or "Dice Wars"
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silverclawgrizzly

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Re: Organized Play
« Reply #51 on: December 21, 2017, 04:08:53 PM »
but the fact is we have time limits for all kinds of reasons. and some games will go to time. this thread has been attempting to hash through how best to handle that situation. no matter how it is decided someone will be unhappy with the decision. cannot be helped. but the discussion has been good.

Zot is 100% correct.

Also looking at the original organized play rules it is not "life" that is counted but how much damage you have on you. I have no intention at all of changing that as it straight up clears away any concerns people have with Sunfire Amulet or Restore.
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RomeoXero

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Re: Organized Play
« Reply #52 on: December 21, 2017, 04:21:44 PM »
I mean... you could do something like that actually. You could put whatever factors of the board state you want into a roll modifier. Life remaining= +1 for each 5 life round down. Creatures on the board +1 for each, mana in store at game off +1 for each 4, conjurations (prolly non vine markers) +1 for each.
Then literally have a roll off for victory with the applied modifiers on the d12! That way you could even split a tie with points to either side for not dying but not killing either with the victor of the roll getting 2 points the loser gets 1.
Now the exact number for the modifiers and maybe even the dice in general could be changed (we could do it with attack dice as well), but this way you'd have a list you check off immediately based on current board state and mages state, it wouldn't take long to do the math (cuz of the reference card and it being based I  whats out now) and there is a final roll with random results added to modifiers based on the situation at end game.
Not too bad a representation of what you might have been About to encounter, with the added bonus of randomness. I'd abide by it. Maybe that's just me
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DevilsVendetta

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Re: Organized Play
« Reply #53 on: December 21, 2017, 06:45:49 PM »
My problem with damage dealt over life remaining is it once again hurts Holy more than anything else. A Priestess for example could wind up with 60-70 total life and 40-50 damage against a Warlock with 35 life and 30 damage and the Priestess loses that because of her innate ability and in-school cards.

I just don't see how it's tough to admit the mage closest to death when time is called is the loser. Not a tie. Loss. Not as big a loss as death but still a loss. Yes, the game could swing if there were another 8 rounds but that's not possible in a timed tournament. If you're closer to death than your opponent, you lose.

And if I win 3 matches that timed way and you win 2 by killing your opponent and then lose 1 via any mean, I played better than you because I didn't lose.


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Coshade

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Re: Organized Play
« Reply #54 on: December 21, 2017, 06:53:25 PM »
That's a really good point Devil. If you go for a high life low armor tactic it is more punishable in a tie situation then a high armor less life.

Romeo your idea is actually pretty brilliant. I was just joking but the way you brought it out maintains the RNG nature Mage Wars tends, but still gives the better player a clear edge in the final roll off. Also it would solve all the issues Devil has of modified wins being worth less then wins. This does create some issues though. The first is that you essentially could be losing and stall out to hopefully win by time in order to get the win. Doesn't feel good to have an opponent run 6 tanglevines so they can run away and those matches are quite long to play through.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 07:09:33 PM by Coshade »
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Re: Organized Play
« Reply #55 on: December 21, 2017, 07:00:03 PM »
Or maybe we just need to be able to make mage wars successful enough that they can afford to block out more time and table space at conventions? Yeah it's probably never going to happen but a guy can dream right?

I think that the way all the conventions are currently set up is really unfair. It unjustly penalizes games with a bigger game length. The amount of time blocked out for a game should be proportional to how much time they *actually need* to run a tournament for that game without artificially messing with the balance of the metagame. Of course, the problem could also be that arcane wonders misjudged the game length when they first published the game. It's not actually a 90 min game. The longest game of Arena I ever played lasted probably like 6-8 hours. Of course, that should never happen between skilled players. But even skilled players will sometimes play for about 3 hours tops. For competitive players, Mage Wars Arena is a 1-3 hour game. But AW put 90 min on the core box, so that's what we're stuck with. 75 min time limits is ridiculously short for Arena. If you see people playing arena on octgn, they usually take more time than that, and not necessarily because they are taking too much time to think.

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Coshade

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Re: Organized Play
« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2017, 07:15:20 PM »
Sailor. This thread is about trying to make timed events work. I know Mage Wars is different without timed events. It's ok to say why it's a problem in comparison to how the game plays out. That doesn't really progress trying to find a solution to how the most fun and proper way going to time should work. This thread is specifically trying to figure that issue out right now.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 07:25:10 PM by Coshade »
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zot

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Re: Organized Play
« Reply #57 on: December 21, 2017, 07:55:06 PM »
does anyone have actual data on how many games went to time over say gencon and mace this year?

zot

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Re: Organized Play
« Reply #58 on: December 21, 2017, 08:21:52 PM »
i would suggest four 90 min rounds with a 90 min break in between match 2 and 3. start the first match at 1pm. folks have lunch before the first round, and can eat again in the middle. at cons the extra break time would actually allow people to get something and make it back. total time is 7.5 hours for qualifiers. and enough time if you need a round five. ending at 8.30 or 10pm. seems reasonable. the extra 15 min may eliminate most of the tie matches, and you can then have them be equal in points and have no tie breaker issues. just a thought.

silverclawgrizzly

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Re: Organized Play
« Reply #59 on: December 21, 2017, 09:45:08 PM »
Statistic number wise? Yeah I probably do have those stats.....somewhere lol. For now I will say this: at 75 minutes the number of games that wen to time at both Gen Con and Mace was extremely low. I would say less than a quarter of the matches. At Mace the only ones I remember going to time were Littlenog VS Ashe and Littlenog VS Zot.

Seems like there were a few more went to timed at Gen Con but then there were more Holy mages too.....and lets be honest this whole argument would be easier if we all just played Beast Masters like champs :)
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