October 15, 2018, 12:33:27 PM

Author Topic: Meditation Paladin Version 2.0  (Read 1286 times)

Reddicediaries

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Meditation Paladin Version 2.0
« on: December 21, 2017, 12:28:50 AM »
So as many of you may know, I have been grinding away at Paladin for about 6 months or so now, getting in about 80-120 games over that time if not more.
So this book is the culmination of 6 months of research.
Essentially, I want to get a temple out and start meditating to get mana to cast my high mana creatures. Originally I had a harmonize in here, but I cut it because I don't like being essentially forced to commit to a temple and harmonize just makes it more tempting to attack. So I cut it and decided to try out some other stuff
Here is the book:
Meditation Paladin Version 2.0A Paladin Spellbookbuilt by the OCTGN SBBA Paladin Stats Spellbookbuilt by the OCTGN SBB
Attack2 x Luminous Blast1 x Acid BallConjuration1 x Temple of Asyra1 x Hand of Bim-Shalla1 x Ballista1 x Mana Crystal1 x Pillar of Righteous Flame1 x Consecrated GroundCreature2 x Guardian Angel1 x Ehren, Enduring Paladin1 x Cassiel, Shield of Bim-Shalla2 x Knight of Westlock1 x Dorseus, Stallion of Westlock1 x Brogan Bloodstone1 x Alandell, the Blue Knight1 x Messenger of Bim-Shalla2 x Asyran Cleric1 x Meditating MonkEnchantment2 x Bear Strength1 x Rhino Hide1 x Rust1 x Nullify1 x Healing Madrigal1 x Eye for an Eye1 x Divine Protection1 x Life Link1 x Blind1 x Chant of Rage1 x Defend MeEquipment1 x Mage Wand1 x Tempered Faulds1 x Elemental Cloak1 x Wand of Healing2 x Champion's Gauntlets1 x Meditation Amulet1 x Signet of the Dawnbreaker1 x Harshforge Plate1 x Mage StaffIncantation1 x Teleport2 x Minor Heal1 x Heal2 x Remove Curse1 x Purify1 x Seeking Dispel2 x Dispel3 x Dissolve1 x Martyr's Restoration1 x Sweeping Strike1 x Purge Magic1 x Force Push1 x Lesser Teleport
Total cost: 120 pts
So essentially the basic plan is this:
Turn 1: Monk and Crystal (19-9=10)
This is a very safe opening and doesn't reveal your plan very much so it is hard for the opponent to exactly read what you're planning to do.
Turn 2: Cass and Med Amulet (20-13+1=8)
Cass is just really solid in general and will be able to pray to the temple until more clerics are out. The reasoning behind the amulet this round is so that next round you can cast temple and meditate to max mana gain.
Turn 3: Temple and Meditate, Cass prays (18-10+3=11 + 2 on temple
This when your mana production can start ramping up. If need be, you can start deploying your higher cost creatures or you can cast ehren and start getting more cheap incremental advantages.
Typically your temple placement depends on your opponent. If you're facing a necro or wizard, I will likely put the temple in my near center so as to get closer faster. Otherwise, I recommend your corner as the location of temple.
If you fear a rush (especially against war mages), you want to be more careful. Likely you want get out angels to protect you from early rushes and some form of dps so as to get you even in the dmg race. Alternatively, you could cast ehren if they are more likely to engage on turns 5-7. I likely would only heal him with bim and life link a couple a couple points off him because sometimes your opponent will try to snipe him before he is fully healed. Vs a full out rush though, Ehren is not that good. Especially against dot books, you want Dorseas out because he can essentially just give you two free healing every round until they kill him.
Now moving on to specific card types
Attack Spells
I don't run very many attack spells with pally in general. I run 2 blasts mainly to have some quick cast dmg sources to help burst people down and the daze is really useful vs rushes. I personally think acid balls are overated, but 1 is good for getting some armor removal and hopefully some dmg on important targets.
Conjurations
It's a temple build after all! Gotta have Temple of Asyra and Hand of Bim!
Ballista: This gives you an advantage over other spawnpoint builds because you can effectively focus down their investments (likely spawnpoints, but armored mages and such can be good targets depending on the situation). I typically like casting this after I have some creatures out so that they have to choose between what to deal with.
Temple of Asrya: I do not like casting this before turn 2 at the earliest and if you get rushed, forgoing Temple of Asyra altogether and focusing on getting out high cost creatures is likely a better plan.
Creatures
The bread and butter of the build! I have a lot of higher cost creatures since I can't get awesome low cost Holy Avengers and the Paladin can be really good at keeping high creatures alive. Each comes out in different situations, but they all serve a different purpose which keeps the book flexible enough to respond to most threats while maintaining enough focus to be able to go down one route with enough support.
Enchantments
Originally this build ran 4 regrowths and tons of divine reversals and such, but I cut all of those because I think the sbp can be invested more efficiently while maintaining proper creature support.
Defend Me: I'm really liking this card (especially over defend) due to the control of the user when they want to pop it. Popping the guard won't work due to the immediate reveal and with angels it's really good. I'm honestly considering a second one.
Blind: I really like it vs rushes. It essentially can function as a psuedo Surging Wave in most cases except in that it's cheaper in sbp and doesn't work as well on offense. Still a really solid defensive card.
Equipment
Generally I run 10 or so equips max without a forge or gear up. I'm really liking weapons and wands when combined with gauntlets and if need be a nullify. The mage staff is a recent addition and it might be cut, but I like it vs flyers. Especially because I want to meditate quite a bit, I'm not really sold on the bow (also I don't have the priest's burn ability so it's not as good). I run harshforge over radiant because I'm likely going to have a lot of guards in my zone anyway and the harshforge costs 2 more initial mana, but over time, the guards will likely make the radiant cost more.
Incantations
I love incantations! This is a typical toolbox for me: 2 dispels, 1 seeking, and 2 remove curse is standred in all my holy books and having heals for the wand if need be and for cass are always important.
Purge Magic: Super big tempo swing. 'For example, if you're dispelling the curses (even with a wand), you're likely losing the battle (most likely you are suffering the effects of the curses before dispelling them). While you won't likely use purge for curses, the same principle applies to removing enemy enchants.
A challenging thing is making sure you get valor to activate the auras so that you aren't just being a worse priestess. It's a complicated process and I am still figuring it out.
I hope you liked this book and please leave me feedback in the comments!
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 02:40:02 PM by Reddicediaries »
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wtcannonjr

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Re: Meditation Paladin Version 2.0
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2017, 05:56:43 AM »
I like the mix of creatures, but curious about the equipment mix. It doesn't seem like you have a way to gain valor. Is that not part of our plan? You have made limited use of the mage only equipment for the Paladin.

Also, I would include more Eye for an Eye enchantments as it can be very strong deterrent once an opponent gets hit with one.

Have you found the Forcemaster to be your toughest opponent? I don't see an obvious counter in your book to handle this challenger.
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Reddicediaries

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Re: Meditation Paladin Version 2.0
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2017, 11:17:47 AM »
I like the mix of creatures, but curious about the equipment mix. It doesn't seem like you have a way to gain valor. Is that not part of our plan? You have made limited use of the mage only equipment for the Paladin.

Also, I would include more Eye for an Eye enchantments as it can be very strong deterrent once an opponent gets hit with one.

Have you found the Forcemaster to be your toughest opponent? I don't see an obvious counter in your book to handle this challenger.
I'll take these one by one.
1. The equipment is in flux atm. I just swapped back in the sword for the mage staff as though the reach is nice, the valor gaining potential is really helpful to this book.
2. Eye for an eye is good, but I don't really like it in the sense that it makes you want to take dmg. Although it could work nicely with the mass healing I plan to do, cass can't cast it and that limits what I can do with my actions (especially with amulet).
3. I haven't faced a forcemaster yet, but the basic plan is rely on Brogan and Dorseas to outlast and kill them or their stuff. You need to make sure you prep a seeking dispel/dispel if you fear mind seize or mind control. It's also important for you to have guards out so mind seize is less effective.
4. Something I am REALLY liking is deploying a cleric on turn 4, meditating, and casting an enchantment such as nullify or rhino hide. This leaves me with 31 mana on turn 5! I've tried and liked deploying ehren from the temple and then hardcasting dorseas while cass casts lifelink and the mage casts hand of bim (if they aren't being to aggressive). Vs opponents who are sitting back, it can work nicely although you need to be more catious vs necro's.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 07:53:37 AM by Reddicediaries »
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Puddnhead

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Re: Meditation Paladin Version 2.0
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2017, 11:26:20 AM »
Small thing to note on that last point: life link is magecast. There are many other good choices for Cassiel, though, so if sounds like a fun surprise.
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Reddicediaries

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Re: Meditation Paladin Version 2.0
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2017, 11:27:24 AM »
Small thing to note on that last point: life link is magecast. There are many other good choices for Cassiel, though, so if sounds like a fun surprise.
Ah yes, good catch puddn! Hmm, that doesn't really impact the plan as using a qc would have happened anyway. Thanks!
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Beldin

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Re: Meditation Paladin Version 2.0
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2017, 07:57:16 PM »
I wonder your millage on Ehren and wonder if it would be better to have Metatron instead as he feeds into you temple build. Metatron gets double duty from your hand of Bim Shalla too.

I also wonder why this is a Paladin now, it used to be more about the Crusade banner, but as your opening is more about Temples etc then I wonder if a Priestess would be a better choice. This would mean you get the monk for free just by choosing her over the paladin, and her abilities are more useful than Valor based ones, as you are not really focusing on those either.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 08:00:39 PM by Beldin »

Reddicediaries

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Re: Meditation Paladin Version 2.0
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2017, 08:17:40 PM »
I wonder your millage on Ehren and wonder if it would be better to have Metatron instead as he feeds into you temple build. Metatron gets double duty from your hand of Bim Shalla too.

I also wonder why this is a Paladin now, it used to be more about the Crusade banner, but as your opening is more about Temples etc then I wonder if a Priestess would be a better choice. This would mean you get the monk for free just by choosing her over the paladin, and her abilities are more useful than Valor based ones, as you are not really focusing on those either.
Well I have put the sword back in over the mage staff and recently have been gaining 4+ valor consistantly.
I want to try the shield and holy armor over a angel and it is more efficient sbp wise and it is a good way of protecting your creatures. What are your experiences with the shield/cloak/helm Beldin?
I don't like Metatron because he has really bad base stats and one really lucky hit can just destroy him. He also requires a lot more setup than Ehren.
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drmambo23

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Re: Meditation Paladin Version 2.0
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2017, 09:18:43 PM »
I wonder your millage on Ehren and wonder if it would be better to have Metatron instead as he feeds into you temple build. Metatron gets double duty from your hand of Bim Shalla too.

I also wonder why this is a Paladin now, it used to be more about the Crusade banner, but as your opening is more about Temples etc then I wonder if a Priestess would be a better choice. This would mean you get the monk for free just by choosing her over the paladin, and her abilities are more useful than Valor based ones, as you are not really focusing on those either.
Well I have put the sword back in over the mage staff and recently have been gaining 4+ valor consistantly.
I want to try the shield and holy armor over a angel and it is more efficient sbp wise and it is a good way of protecting your creatures. What are your experiences with the shield/cloak/helm Beldin?
I don't like Metatron because he has really bad base stats and one really lucky hit can just destroy him. He also requires a lot more setup than Ehren.

Whats your set up to get ehren to no dmg?


And if you play temple and hand of bim anyways, metatron may be a good choice! Flying, aegis, regen, melee+...cant go wrong. Life link and healing madrigal can save 7dmg a turn, 8 if you use bim.
Also, curious as to why no basilica? Especially if you have the sword now it can help! It would also help metatron lol

The only thing metatron needs is something like gator toughness. 2 armor 11 life can go a long way with a holy mage when they have built in regen.

Just saying dont overlook it bc his base stats are not "up to par". His other stats make up for it and if used right he wrecks!
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Beldin

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Re: Meditation Paladin Version 2.0
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2017, 09:36:56 AM »
Well I have put the sword back in over the mage staff and recently have been gaining 4+ valor consistantly.
I want to try the shield and holy armor over a angel and it is more efficient sbp wise and it is a good way of protecting your creatures. What are your experiences with the shield/cloak/helm Beldin?
I don't like Metatron because he has really bad base stats and one really lucky hit can just destroy him. He also requires a lot more setup than Ehren.

Well from what I see that is 22 mana to create a valor engine. There is no mention of the auras you prefer for the book, which I would consider to be a big part of the book design. After 6 months research you should be able to shed light on which ones you prefer and what ones are the better ones etc. Without this in your description then one can assume that you are not working with them and using the paladin skin to unlock the schools and benefits of the mage; another thing that can surmised from your book list due to the splash of war in a mostly holy book and the opening does little to persuade the reader otherwise. I am only suggesting at this point that you might be correct in moving away from the Paladin to the Priestess due to the fact your book has higher mana requirements, however you have to evaluate what you are also losing in the process.

Now onto the sword/melee attack, I have always rated a mage based melee attack to be low down on the list of priorities of what I want to do in my turn. I would rather be using my actions to cast spells, furthering my own plan or mitigating the plan of my opponent, where it causes me problems. The melee attack short circuits that as it means I have to forgo any full round action, which is fine where there are other objects providing me with the full turn actions I am losing, however these also need to be correct and positively producing or you end up with too many actions and not enough mana to power them all.

On the note of Metatron. The set up you talk about is the core of your build and opening, maybe with the addition of a single Bull's endurance/Gator's toughness can boost him to where he needs to be ideally. With a Temple of Asyra and Hand of Bim-Shalla Metatron gets +2 Melee and Regen 2, +1 to either if you use the Hand's bonus on him. Where as Ehren requires a number of healing actions and the shift to heal him can be thwarted by a clever opponent giving him just enough damage so you pay more for him than you opponent does. Also Temple of Ifernia hurts Ehren more than it does Metatron.

@drrambo23 There is very few light based attacks here and tbh it is a shame Metatron does have light himself.

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Re: Meditation Paladin Version 2.0
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2017, 10:38:33 AM »
I find that you should play Temple of Asyra fairly early or else you are not going to get a good return on your mana investment.  I would suggest Temple of Asyra with Harmonize (which you would have to add to your deck) during the first turn.  Of course, it will take you seven turns to regain your mana investment, but it will only take you two turns to regain your action investment. 

As it stands, you will not regain your mana until seven turns after you put out your Temple of Asyra anyway.  You are spending 20 mana for one Temple of Asyra and two Clerics of Asyra, and they are generating three mana a turn for two actions a turn.  Your preparation requires three actions (as opposed to the two actions of a Temple of Asyra and Harmonize combination) and you have to spend thirteen actions from the Clerics of Asyra to regain the 20 mana that has been invested (as opposed to no actions with the Temple of Asyra and Harmonize combination).

Beldin

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Re: Meditation Paladin Version 2.0
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2017, 09:17:27 PM »
I find that you should play Temple of Asyra fairly early or else you are not going to get a good return on your mana investment.  I would suggest Temple of Asyra with Harmonize (which you would have to add to your deck) during the first turn.  Of course, it will take you seven turns to regain your mana investment, but it will only take you two turns to regain your action investment. 

As it stands, you will not regain your mana until seven turns after you put out your Temple of Asyra anyway.  You are spending 20 mana for one Temple of Asyra and two Clerics of Asyra, and they are generating three mana a turn for two actions a turn.  Your preparation requires three actions (as opposed to the two actions of a Temple of Asyra and Harmonize combination) and you have to spend thirteen actions from the Clerics of Asyra to regain the 20 mana that has been invested (as opposed to no actions with the Temple of Asyra and Harmonize combination).

The maths is correct and whereas I agree that a spawnpoint should be cast as soon as possible, with Pentagram being the exception. I have seen a pair of Clerics and Harmonise on a Temple of Asyra be the core of Priestesses that win games and tournaments.

Reddicediaries

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Re: Meditation Paladin Version 2.0
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2017, 11:09:39 AM »
I find that you should play Temple of Asyra fairly early or else you are not going to get a good return on your mana investment.  I would suggest Temple of Asyra with Harmonize (which you would have to add to your deck) during the first turn.  Of course, it will take you seven turns to regain your mana investment, but it will only take you two turns to regain your action investment. 

As it stands, you will not regain your mana until seven turns after you put out your Temple of Asyra anyway.  You are spending 20 mana for one Temple of Asyra and two Clerics of Asyra, and they are generating three mana a turn for two actions a turn.  Your preparation requires three actions (as opposed to the two actions of a Temple of Asyra and Harmonize combination) and you have to spend thirteen actions from the Clerics of Asyra to regain the 20 mana that has been invested (as opposed to no actions with the Temple of Asyra and Harmonize combination).
I find this analysis very interesting. It doesn't seem like enemy mana, sbp, and actions spent to to take the temple out is included in these return calculations no?
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RomeoXero

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Re: Meditation Paladin Version 2.0
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2017, 11:20:53 AM »
I really don't recommend harmonizing a temple of assyra unless you are planning on having it focused down. It increases the value of the target by a lot. Now its 5 sp worth of target and the acid ball, boulder/hammer makes much more sense to use to kill it. That temple is squishy as hell
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Re: Meditation Paladin Version 2.0
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2018, 08:59:49 AM »
These are some cosmetic changes I would make though I would like to see a few games of how you play this book.

PaladinA Paladin Spellbookbuilt by http://www.spellbookbuilder.com
Equipment2 x Champion's Gauntlets1 x Dawn's Bastion1 x Defense Ring1 x Elemental Cloak1 x Mage Staff1 x Mage Wand1 x Meditation Amulet1 x Radiant Breastplate1 x Tempered Faulds1 x Wand of HealingConjuration1 x Ballista1 x Consecrated Ground1 x Hand of Bim-Shalla1 x Mana Crystal1 x Pillar of Righteous Flame1 x Temple of AsyraCreature1 x Alandell, the Blue Knight2 x Asyran Cleric1 x Brogan Bloodstone1 x Cassiel, Shield of Bim-Shalla1 x Dorseus, Stallion of Westlock1 x Ehren, Enduring Paladin2 x Guardian Angel2 x Knight of Westlock1 x Meditating MonkEnchantment1 x Bear Strength1 x Brace Yourself1 x Chant of Rage2 x Critical Strike1 x Divine Protection1 x Eye for an Eye1 x Healing Madrigal2 x Knight's Courage1 x Life Link1 x Nullify2 x Pacify1 x Rhino HideIncantation2 x Dispel3 x Dissolve1 x Force Push1 x Heal1 x Martyr's Restoration2 x Minor Heal1 x Purge Magic1 x Purify2 x Remove Curse1 x Seeking Dispel1 x Sweeping Strike1 x TeleportAttack1 x Acid Ball2 x Luminous Blast
Total cost: 120 pts

I would like to see more healing in this book I thought about the promo healing ring with wand, but I don't think they mix.  After looking in spellbook builder it would work.  So yeah you could use the healing ring with the wand for an extra hp per heal.

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Re: Meditation Paladin Version 2.0
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2018, 02:05:17 PM »
It really has too few attack spells and too few healing spells.  I would suggest six Luminous Blasts and six Minor Heals.  When your Paladin really starts going, he should really be tossing down a minimum of 14 dice of damage a turn or so (one quick action ranged attack at 6 dice and one full round action attack at 8 dice).  I also suggest thinking about throwing in a Straywood Scout and a couple of Marked for Deaths so you could increase the damage to 18 dice per turn against the enemy Mage (they also help your creatures gain +2 attack dice against the enemy Mage).