December 11, 2018, 03:17:38 PM

Author Topic: force pull through Mind's eye  (Read 720 times)

exid

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force pull through Mind's eye
« on: January 18, 2018, 11:31:03 AM »
"toward her" becoms toward the eye, or is it still toward the Forcemaster?

Puddnhead

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Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2018, 11:42:02 AM »
In short, it's fuzzy.

Towards her is the Rules as Written interpretation. The problem comes when you target something within the Forcemaster's zone.  This was never an issue before since the spell is range 1-2.  Now with Mind's Eye you can target something inside your own zone...what do you do now?

I think the best way to interpret Mind's Eye itself is that Mind's Eye becomes "her" when it is the source of Force Pull.  To put it another way, the Forcemaster always pulls towards the source (historically herself), but Mind's Eye wasn't on the radar back then and so the Forcemaster statcard should say "Force Pull pushes toward the source".
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Beldin

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Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2018, 11:59:02 PM »
Agreed.  The minds eye becomes the source and thus the target is pulled towards the eye.

exid

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Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2018, 12:55:08 AM »
and you can pull it in a wall (3 dices damage!)

ininalia

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Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2018, 06:30:56 AM »
Hi,

because I didnīt find a good answer I wanted to ask again. Sorry for reviving this topic

Is the "her" in Force Pull the Minds Eye or the Forcemaster if used through the Minds Eye?

It would be nice if someone could clarify this with a solid rule foundation.
(For me it matters little if the lore fits)

How I see it is that it moves closer to the Minds Eye, because it says "her" not specifically "Forcemaster".

But this interpretation comes from other (mostly TCGs) games that use specific Syntax to have clear Card Text. In most of them its, if its not the exact card name (in this case that would be "Forcemaster") then it means the source of the effect.

With best regards,
Ini

exid

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Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2018, 08:48:04 AM »
"her" is the force master.

you must choose:
-> does it stay the FM when cast from the eye?
-> does it mean "the source" and become the eye when cast from the eye?

ase written, it's the first answer... but I choosed the second.

Kharhaz

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Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2018, 11:59:59 AM »
In short, RAW, "her" is the forcemaster.

Mind's eye changes the source of the spell but not the ability of a spell.

You still cannot push creatures through walls with the passage attack trait and the spell is still an "untyped" force spell that follows all the normal steps. (doesn't trigger nullify, force ring discounts, etc.)

The push effect, see the codex, specifically works by having the target move 1 zone away from the source. The forcemaster ability overides that by always setting the Forcemaster as the source.

Puddnhead

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Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2018, 01:18:31 PM »
All throughout playtesting, I personally...as well as those with whom I playtested, assumed that Mind's Eye becomes the place toward which the target is pulled... I.E. the Forcemaster's ability gets reworded to "...pulled one zone toward the source".

Force Pull had no historical reason to be worded in the above manner and it is simpler "plain English" to just say "her" instead of "the source" because "her" IS the source...until Mind's Eye comes along.  All of a sudden you've divorced "caster" from "source" and now there's a grey area. Rather brilliant that this is the ONE thing that causes problems with Mind's Eye's wording.

Now, I'm not the designer and I don't know the intent.  I always prefer intent over "Rules As Written" and that may be a shortcoming of mine.

Most of the time Mind's Eye is used to cast Thoughtspore spells in my experience, but the potential to pull anywhere is what makes the spell actually interesting and fun to play.

As the official Rules Codex and Supplement has not been updated on this item it falls to the community to decide how to rule it. I know of at least two tournaments (both of which I've been involved in running, so take this with a grain of salt) that rule the way I have up above. By no means am I the arbiter of your enjoyment of this game, but tradition interprets grey areas and there's a tradition started with both this spell and with Disciple of Radiance and I would counsel to go with tradition.
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Kharhaz

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Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2018, 02:24:53 PM »
All throughout playtesting, I personally...as well as those with whom I playtested, assumed that Mind's Eye becomes the place toward which the target is pulled... I.E. the Forcemaster's ability gets reworded to "...pulled one zone toward the source".

Force Pull had no historical reason to be worded in the above manner and it is simpler "plain English" to just say "her" instead of "the source" because "her" IS the source...until Mind's Eye comes along.  All of a sudden you've divorced "caster" from "source" and now there's a grey area. Rather brilliant that this is the ONE thing that causes problems with Mind's Eye's wording.

Now, I'm not the designer and I don't know the intent.  I always prefer intent over "Rules As Written" and that may be a shortcoming of mine.

Most of the time Mind's Eye is used to cast Thoughtspore spells in my experience, but the potential to pull anywhere is what makes the spell actually interesting and fun to play.

As the official Rules Codex and Supplement has not been updated on this item it falls to the community to decide how to rule it. I know of at least two tournaments (both of which I've been involved in running, so take this with a grain of salt) that rule the way I have up above. By no means am I the arbiter of your enjoyment of this game, but tradition interprets grey areas and there's a tradition started with both this spell and with Disciple of Radiance and I would counsel to go with tradition.


Not disagreeing with you Pudding, but Ini wanted a solid rules foundation.

From FAQ:
"Unless the effect says otherwise, the pushed creature must move one zone away from the source of the Push"

The Force Pull effect overrides the source for the Push effect. It's not a gray area at all really becuase of how force pull is written to always push the creature towards the force master.






Arkdeniz

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Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2018, 04:28:42 PM »
Ininalia mentions lore. Well, since that door is opened...

To me the Mind's Eye (in in-game lore terms) is a manifestation of the Forcemaster's will. In effect the Mind's Eye serves as a remote version of herself (serving as the "her" of the Forcemaster detail card).

If we want to look at it another way the target feels a pulling force from Force Pull. If the source of the pulling force emanates from the Mind's Eye it wouldn't make sense for the target to move in any other direction than towards the Mind's Eye.

So for both these reasons I am with Puddnhead. The Force Pull from a Mind's Eye drags the target towards the Mind's Eye.

(To me, Mind's Eye is kind of like a familiar that the Forcemaster channels her own spells through, rather than casting its own, but like a familiar it serves as its own source.)
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Puddnhead

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Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2018, 04:37:36 PM »

Not disagreeing with you Pudding, but Ini wanted a solid rules foundation.

From FAQ:
"Unless the effect says otherwise, the pushed creature must move one zone away from the source of the Push"

The Force Pull effect overrides the source for the Push effect. It's not a gray area at all really becuase of how force pull is written to always push the creature towards the force master.


I'm in full agreement that a RAW reading of Force Pull (as worded before the idea of Mind's Eye was a twinkle in the designer's eye) is always toward "her". But two points remain

1) First, as mentioned, Mind's Eye wasn't a concept while Force Pull was originally being worded. It still remains that "her" and "source" are interchangeable in RAW understandings of Force Pull until Mind's Eye was created.  Once Mind's Eye hit the field those terms are no longer interchangeable and I definitely believe they deserve a statement of intention. It could be argued that you are no longer using Force Pull in the way it is supposed to be used on either account. Which is the greater part of the intention of Force Pull: That it always closed the gap between FM and target OR That it always PULLS? They are one and the same until Mind's Eye mucks it up for us.

2) What happens now that the Forcemaster is able to target herself with Force Pull through Mind's Eye? Nothing? OR Any direction you choose?  Doesn't it make more sense to force (pun intended) the pull to move in a certain direction..i.e. Toward the source?  Which is now Mind's Eye.  Should changing the Source of Force Pull have ramifications other than range as it does with other spells?  Reverse Magic, Revese Attack will affect the Eye rather than the Forcemaster (or Thoughtspore) when using other spells.  Why does it not change the effect of Force Pull?

Slightly more frivolously, it could be construed that "her" is a very unclear term in that it could be referring to any "her" in the arena.  ;)

I know you and I have been around the block a few times with this one and I respect your rules knowledge and interpretive ability. I am just convinced that the "proper" way to play Force Pull + Mind's Eye is to actually make the Eye cast the spell instead of the Forcemaster and thus BE the "her" to which Force Pull is referring.
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Kharhaz

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Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2018, 06:35:08 PM »

2)
A.What happens now that the Forcemaster is able to target herself with Force Pull through Mind's Eye? Nothing? OR Any direction you choose?

B. Doesn't it make more sense to force (pun intended) the pull to move in a certain direction..i.e. Toward the source?  Which is now Mind's Eye. 

C.Should changing the Source of Force Pull have ramifications other than range as it does with other spells?  Reverse Magic, Revese Attack will affect the Eye rather than the Forcemaster (or Thoughtspore) when using other spells.  Why does it not change the effect of Force Pull?

2.A) The same thing that happens when you cast push on yourself.

2.B) Debating intent of effect vs intent of spell is irrelevant. At the end of the day, if I was a judge, the rules say how it works so that is how it works. Your judge may disagree but from the reverse, if I was playing someone and they called a judge over and the judge decided that a rule didn't apply becuase my opponenet didnt want it to, I would not be very happy.

2.C) Reverse magic / nullify require enchantment and incantations to trigger, so force pull will not trigger that; side note. The source of Force Pull does change for the record, it's the mind eye. What you have to remember is that force pull overrides the PUSH effect and that is why this gets weird.


P.S. I'll take you around the block any day ol buddy ;)

Arkdeniz

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Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2018, 06:38:24 PM »
Slightly more frivolously, it could be construed that "her" is a very unclear term in that it could be referring to any "her" in the arena.  ;)


I will see your frivolous statement and raise you Life Link. I feel sorry for any Priestess that wants to use it, since that spell clearly can be only used by the guys.

"The controller of Life Link may heal up to 3 damage from this creature and place it on HIMSELF as direct damage."


Now this may seem like a flippant comment, and I suspect that nobody will take this ruling seriously. I'm sure Kharhaz will agree that "Of course a Priestess could use Life Link!"

However, if you are prepared to accept that 'himself' in this case means 'controlling mage' then you are accepting that pronoun usage in Mage Wars is not a concrete thing. And if you accept that, then it is a very short step to thinking that "her" of the Force Pull may not necessarily mean "the Forcemaster" but could mean something else, like "the source".

At this point, if you argue that 'her' can only mean the Forcemaster because 'reasons' then you are arguing intent rather than RAW. Which means game on, may the best RAI win. 

« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 07:07:52 PM by Arkdeniz »
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DaveW

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Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2018, 07:13:54 PM »
Slightly more frivolously, it could be construed that "her" is a very unclear term in that it could be referring to any "her" in the arena.

Since pronouns replace nouns in context, and since the only "her" mentioned in the context of the Force Pull ability, this "her" must be the Forcemaster. It cannot be a reference to any other creature... even another female FM.
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Kharhaz

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Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2018, 07:46:18 PM »
Slightly more frivolously, it could be construed that "her" is a very unclear term in that it could be referring to any "her" in the arena.

Since pronouns replace nouns in context, and since the only "her" mentioned in the context of the Force Pull ability, this "her" must be the Forcemaster. It cannot be a reference to any other creature... even another female FM.

While I cannot say with 100% certainty, pronouns such as his, her, himself, and son on, mean "controlling mage".

So force pull is designed to force a target, "to the controlling mage" and life link places that damage on the "controlling mage".

O how I miss the good old days where we thought that Warlords sweeping themselves was the strangest rule issue....