December 19, 2018, 03:50:34 AM

Author Topic: force pull through Mind's eye  (Read 783 times)

Arkdeniz

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Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2018, 08:47:30 PM »
So the situation we are left with is that if the target creature is between the Forcemaster and the Mind's Eye, a Force Pull can be used to push it away.

Okay then. Glad we sorted that out.
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Puddnhead

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Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2018, 09:36:34 PM »
So the situation we are left with is that if the target creature is between the Forcemaster and the Mind's Eye, a Force Pull can be used to push it away.

Okay then. Glad we sorted that out.

Only if "pushing it away" makes it closer to the Forcemaster.  In which case, why have the Eye in the first place?

I still contend that "RAW" is the wrong choice here and that since we do not get any rulings from the designers anymore we have to decide for ourselves how it is to be interpreted. My FM will use a spell called "PULL" to always "PULL" thank you very much.  Way more consistent.
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Arkdeniz

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Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2018, 09:38:35 PM »
Iím with you, Puddn!
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ininalia

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Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2018, 09:37:33 AM »
Thank you for the answers.

I somewhat thought the same as Arkdeniz in his Life Link example, in that its not 100% clear that RAW is that ďherĒ = This Forcemaster.

But from a Rule standpoint I think itís the right way, so I will go with it.
So we will most likely play like this in Munich from now on.

It always must be pulled towards the Forcemaster Mage.
If you target something in the Zone of the Forcemaster it canīt be pulled, so nothing happens.

Also nice to see that there are some active Members in this Forum still!

With best regards,
Ini

Coshade

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Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2018, 11:32:14 AM »
In general I prefer to play things by RAW when it comes to games. This discussion is really unique because it comes from a perspective of players that know "how the sausage gets made." with this set. You will see in some tournaments RAW get changed to the perspective of puddn, only because it was on the docket to get changed in an errata, but has not completed yet. If you are not sure which perspective to try it out as, I would suggest just playing as RAW to avoid explanation. But I would suggest trying it out with force pulling towards the source, just to see if you like it more or not. It does change the ability to have more uses, such as pulling the Forcemaster herself to allow a full Galvitar hit.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 11:36:46 AM by Coshade »
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Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2018, 02:27:23 AM »
 ;DWell , And now imagine a fight with two Forcemaster ^^ who is "her" ^^ ;D
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Zuberi

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Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2018, 06:54:18 AM »
I feel obligated to first say that despite my reputation and some people's opinion to the contrary, I am not the arbiter of rules and am not an official response. This is merely my personal opinion.

I think the card text is not clear. The use of the pronoun and what it is referencing when the source of the spell is suddenly changed can be argued, and trying to argue it is not going to get us anywhere. I prefer Puddnhead's method in this case, looking at the intent.

Option A: Force Pull always pushes towards the Forcemaster. Nearly every situation under this option will end up working exactly how Force Pull has always worked, and was clearly intended to work. The only exceptions are if you target the Mage herself or any other creature in the same zone as her. In which case the two possible interpretations are that nothing happens, or that she may push the creature in any direction. I'm of the belief that nothing would happen. The reason for this is clearer when talking about other creatures in the zone with her, as pushing them out of the zone obviously doesn't follow the rules of the spell. They'd be moving further away, not nearer. The same is true when used on the Mage though. You are moving her away from her current location, not towards it. So basically, Option A uses the Mind's Eye to increase range but does not affect functionality.

Option B: Force Pull pushes towards the source, i.e. the Mind's Eye. This would be consistent with the rules for Pushes in general. Their direction is generally in reference to the source, not the caster. However, this grants Force Pull all sorts of new functionality, in addition to increased range. Obviously it now lets you pull things AWAY from the Forcemaster, which is the exact opposite of what it was originally supposed to do, and makes it much easier for the Mage to disengage and keep things a safe distance away. It also allows you to pull yourself, giving you increased mobility. I don't think there's any way to argue that this isn't as intended for Force Pull. But maybe it's the intent for Mind's Eye? Puddnhead references Reverse Magic and Reverse Attack, but that seems like a poor comparison to me. The effect of those spells isn't really changed. They've always targeted the source, and have had rulings on that going back to the core set and Chain Lightning. And casting them out of Mind's Eye doesn't change anything about them. The only thing happening there is the fact that Mind's Eye can trigger them.

Jet Stream is a better example. But here I think it's important to realize that this, and any other example you can come up with, aren't Mage Abilities. Any spell card you can point to as an example has the property of being a spell card, and thus designed with the idea in mind that it may be cast by a Familiar instead of by your Mage (Note, I recognize that Magecast spells exist, but I couldn't find any relevant to the discussion). That's not the case with Force Pull. It's initial design and intention was always that it would be pushing things towards the Mage.

That's why I think Option A is the right interpretation. It pushes them towards the Forcemaster, and if you target the Forcemaster herself or any other creature in her zone, it doesn't do anything. Not because it has the best argument grammatically with regards to the pronoun, but because it preserves game play and avoids unintentional uses of an ability.

Puddnhead

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Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2018, 12:35:22 PM »
Can we take a minute to understand that Force Pull is Force PULL.  Why is it less important that it actually PULLS rather than is relevant to the position of the Forcemaster?!

The only reason Force Pull is worded the way that it is is because they wanted to use the already extant Game Terminology of "push" instead of having to have a separate entry for "pull". Force Pull as a spell is intended to be a quick "yoink". The reason it costs 1 mana is because it is limited in direction and cannot push through passage attacks.

Why does the "yoink" FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE DIRECTION when a Mind's Eye casts it? This is preposterous. Mind's Eye CHANGED the RULES. I contend that PULL is more important to the intrinsic spell-ness of Force Pull than "her" is.

*rant snipped out* My views have been stated and the rules lawyers have spoken -- exit Puddnhead.
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Kelanen

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Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2018, 02:02:32 PM »
I'm of the opinion that it should pull towards the minds Eye, but it needs a ruling one way or other written in stone...
« Last Edit: December 01, 2018, 06:17:20 AM by Kelanen »

farkas1

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Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2018, 05:03:18 PM »
Yea agree minds should pull towards minds eye.  I donít think it breaks the game having it work that way and makes minds eye more deadly.  I also agree thematically it makes since that way.
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Zuberi

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Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2018, 05:07:33 PM »
I don't think the fact that it "pulls" is less relevant. But it is intrinsically tied to the question of "pulling towards what?". You can't say whether it's a pull or a push without a frame of reference. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your argument seems to mostly be a thematic one at this point. But there are ways to imagine this to make thematic sense. Instead of some kind of lasso of force coming from the Mind's Eye and pulling the creature in that direction, think of it as a tether. The mind eye uses force energy to tether the Mage and the target creature together, and pull them closer to each other. Theme isn't my strong suit, but there are ways to explain it.

Meanwhile, I find it funny that we use a lot of the same points of contention but reach different conclusions. "The reason it costs 1 mana is because it is limited in direction..." is, to me, a good reason why the direction shouldn't be changed. "Why does the 'yoink' FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE DIRECTION when a Mind's Eye casts it?" It shouldn't. Which is why it should continue to pull the creature towards the Forcemaster. Doing otherwise would be a fundamental change in how the spell functions. That's the direction it was always designed to operate with. Giving it extra functionality and versatility without increasing it's cost seems like a poor idea to me.

Also, remember that the Mind's Eye isn't the caster. The Forcemaster is still the one casting it. So that might help your thematic disconnect. Maybe picture it as a hand of force that is magnetically/magically attracted to her that she just throws behind the target. She can use the Mind's Eye to help her plop it behind a target, but it is still drawn towards her, the caster. I think that is a better picture than my tether idea.

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Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2018, 06:34:19 PM »
If the community is voting for consensus, then my vote is to always pull toward the Forcemaster using her ability.

Rationale: it creates the smallest amount of change to the way the Forcemaster ability worked prior to release of Mind's Eye. The ability still pulls a creature toward the swirling Galvitar Force Blade intent on slicing it to pieces but now the ability has an extended range and can be used over top of walls.
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