August 14, 2018, 04:50:09 PM

Author Topic: Mind control and chant of rage  (Read 548 times)

Kaarin

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Mind control and chant of rage
« on: January 29, 2018, 11:23:24 AM »
Can I put Rage token on a creature I mind control?
If I can will Rage token stay on the creature if MC gets dispelled before CoR gets discarded?
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Santar

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Re: Mind control and chant of rage
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2018, 12:54:04 PM »
I think you can put Hate on creature with Mind Control. And when MC dispelled Hate token will stay. But we need clear between YOUR creature and control creature.

Coshade

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Re: Mind control and chant of rage
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2018, 12:54:18 PM »
It's a really good idea! But ownership of the card vs control of the card are two different things. When you Mind Control, you are considered to control it, but you do not own it. Another instance of this is you cannot mind control something, destroy it to have it go in your graveyard to do things like resurrect.
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Zuberi

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Re: Mind control and chant of rage
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2018, 04:55:29 PM »
This is an interesting idea. I agree with Santar and Coshade that it depends on our interpretation of "one of your creatures". If we take that to mean a creature that you control, then you could put it on a Mind Controlled creature. This could have the weird affect though that if the creature gets free of the Mind Control before the Chant of Rage is destroyed, then the Hate token would end up on an enemy creature and thus not be destroyed when Chant of Rage is.

I'm pretty sure that that interaction is not intended. But then there's also the weird interaction where if we interpret it as a creature you own, you could put it on a creature your enemy has stolen from you with Mind Control. That isn't really desired either. You could also argue that it should be limited to a creature you both own AND control.

I'm honestly not sure which of these three positions I would promote, nor am I positive if there's ever been a ruling on what "your" means in the past. I want to say it means something you control, so it would work exactly how Kaarin suspected, but I honestly don't know for sure. The safest answer, I think, is the third option requiring both owning and controlling. Does anyone have previous examples of similar wording?

exid

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Re: Mind control and chant of rage
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2018, 01:02:35 AM »
should be in the next rule supplement!

Arkdeniz

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Re: Mind control and chant of rage
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2018, 06:10:01 AM »
This is an interesting idea. I agree with Santar and Coshade that it depends on our interpretation of "one of your creatures". If we take that to mean a creature that you control, then you could put it on a Mind Controlled creature. This could have the weird affect though that if the creature gets free of the Mind Control before the Chant of Rage is destroyed, then the Hate token would end up on an enemy creature and thus not be destroyed when Chant of Rage is.

I'm pretty sure that that interaction is not intended. But then there's also the weird interaction where if we interpret it as a creature you own, you could put it on a creature your enemy has stolen from you with Mind Control. That isn't really desired either. You could also argue that it should be limited to a creature you both own AND control.

I'm honestly not sure which of these three positions I would promote, nor am I positive if there's ever been a ruling on what "your" means in the past. I want to say it means something you control, so it would work exactly how Kaarin suspected, but I honestly don't know for sure. The safest answer, I think, is the third option requiring both owning and controlling. Does anyone have previous examples of similar wording?

I have found various uses of "your" on the spell cards. There are:

Your Mage*
Your spellbook
Your discard pile
Your opponent
Your zone
[type of spell] your mage controls
Your mana supply
Your choosing/your choice
Your spells
Your Challenged enemy
Your next attack
Yourself
Your effect roll

Only Chant of Rage refers to 'your creatures', rather than 'friendly creatures' or 'creatures you control'.

I would like to think that 'your creature' must mean something other than 'creature you control', or else the latter phrase would have been used since it is commonly in use on other cards.

The only thing I can think it might mean is 'a creature that came out of your spellbook' (i.e. a card you as a player own). The only rationale I can think of for this is that if the creature you Mind Control is destroyed, it does not go onto your discard pile, but the opponent's, since it is their card after all, and not *ahem* yours. The phrase 'your discard pile' is used several times to distinguish between the two piles.

There is a wide inconsistency in usage between "your mage" and just "your". They clearly almost always mean 'your mage' rather than 'you the player' (or else their would be interesting connotations for spells like Smite), but I argue you have to make exceptions for the more metagame concepts of 'your creature' and 'your discard pile'.

All this is a long winded way of saying "I think Zuberi's second theory is probably right, odd as it may seem".

But who knows? This is a very interesting question.

*in passing I note that the Ivarium Halberd refers both to 'this mage' (being the target) and 'your mage' (being the caster) - thus in theory if they were playing together in a variant match an arena mage could cast it on to an academy mage, who would thus gain one attack die more than if if they had cast it on themself. This contrasts with similar Academy weapons, such as the Johktari Hunting Knife, which use the term 'this mage' throughout.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 06:14:47 AM by Arkdeniz »
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Zuberi

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Re: Mind control and chant of rage
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2018, 09:14:28 AM »
Your mage, your spellbook, your discard pile, your opponent, and your mana supply are all irrelevant in this discussion as they never change control, so specifying whether "your" refers to things you own or things you control would not have been necessary.  Same for your choice.

Your zone is interesting, as you CAN'T own a zone, but you can control it. However, that doesn't seem to be what it is referring to here. Instead, it just seems to be referring to where you happen to be. Similar thing with your challenged enemy. You definitely don't control a challenged enemy creature, because if you did they'd be friendly rather than an enemy, and normally you don't own it either. This again seems to be using the term in a different way to simply mean the creature that you have challenged.

It seems that they tend to just use "your" as plain English and have always made it clear in the past what it is referring to. I think Chant of Rage really might be the first time its meaning has been ambiguous.

Quote from: Arkdeniz
There is a wide inconsistency in usage between "your mage" and just "your".
"Your Mage" has started falling a little out of favor, as it has been firmly established that your mage and you the player are synonymous. Therefore there's no difference between saying "your mage" and just saying "you". And the latter takes up less space. I think "your mage" is still the more common phrasing, but there definitely are more and more spells that just refer to "you" directly. There's no wacky connotations because the mage IS the player.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 09:55:20 AM by Zuberi »

Arkdeniz

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Re: Mind control and chant of rage
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2018, 02:43:26 PM »
"Your Mage" has started falling a little out of favor, as it has been firmly established that your mage and you the player are synonymous.

It surely cannot be entirely synonymous. You are someone sitting at a table playing a card game. Your Mage is a character running around an arena lobbing spells. I would have thought only one of those two individuals can have a discard pile, and it is not "Your Mage".** Some metagame concepts creep in around the edges.


**Unless, I suppose, we picture the mages as actually casting from pages torn out of their spellbooks and throwing the pieces of paper on the ground as they go. I guess that could work.
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Beldin

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Re: Mind control and chant of rage
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2018, 11:44:07 PM »
This is interesting.

I would say that "your" is something that you control. Your Zone is a zone that you control. Zonal control is dealt with in the FiF rules. Thus making it also synonymous with friendly.

Your needs a clear moniker now we have a nebulous use. Thus negating the English use of it. It is either owned or controlled and all cards are then tied to it for good or ill. In case that break the game we errata from here. All is then reflected in the rules supplement.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 11:55:39 PM by Beldin »

exid

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Re: Mind control and chant of rage
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2018, 12:54:22 AM »
"your zone" isn't allways controled!
if you are in a zone with an enemy creature, it's "your zone" but you don't control it.

Beldin

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Re: Mind control and chant of rage
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2018, 04:04:05 AM »
"your zone" isn't allways controled!
if you are in a zone with an enemy creature, it's "your zone" but you don't control it.

I'd overlooked that in the search for a moniker that works!

Coshade

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Re: Mind control and chant of rage
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2018, 09:04:02 AM »
Just wanted to clarify how the rules are written for Zone Control. A Player controls a zone if they control a creature in that  zone and their opponent does not. Do not count Pests or Incapacitated creatures
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exid

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Re: Mind control and chant of rage
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2018, 12:45:45 AM »
well, chants seem to be ill written.

is there an official rulling about control/own here?
will there be new versions of the rull supplement in the future?