December 19, 2018, 03:49:26 AM

Author Topic: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?  (Read 1088 times)

werner

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Mage with 'FD-Falcon Precision' declares melee on my ForceMaster. I declare and pay for 'Symbiotic Orb Defense,' is it too late to reveal 'Falcon Precision?' Or does it fizzle my Orb_Defense (wasting 3 mana / or / 1 Dissipate).
« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 03:08:14 PM by werner »

farkas1

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You can reveal enchantments at each phase of the attack phase.  So you should be able to reveal falcon precision and use the unavoidable attack. Even once you pay for the defense on the orb before defense did is rolled an enchantment can be revealed.  So I think you lose the mana and the FP creaature gets to strike. 
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werner

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That's the way we ruled it... And as I chose 3-mana I started to think about how rough it would be to lose the Defense AND harm a ever-fading Force Creature. Either way it's ruled; more Seeking Dispels are going in my FM deck!!! Thanks for the reply.

Sailor Vulcan

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I'm not so sure about that. The cost for orb's defense should be paid either before or during the avoid attack step. If it's during the avoid attack step then it is too late because that is when the attack is avoided. If it's before the avoid attack step then you would be able to reveal falcon precision after the cost of the defense has already been paid. I suspect that the cost is paid *during* the step, not before. Though I could be wrong.

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werner

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Thanks for weighing in, Sailor Vulcan. Like in most Timing/Phase debates... I just want to make sure I understand it correctly (and then still cramming more Seeking Dispel deckwise).


Arkdeniz

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I see two possibilities here:

The Simple Argument:

The key line on the Symbiotic Orb is "This counts as a Defense". So, despite the wording of 'once per round when an object in your zone is melee attacked...' the card  should activate (and be paid for) at the appropriate time in the attack sequence for Defenses, which is at the start of step four: Avoid Attack.

Now, during attacks, Enchantments can only be revealed at the end of any step, not during one.

So the simple reading is that if the player with the Falcon Precision wants to use it against someone who might be defended by a Symbiotic Orb, the FP needs to be revealed no later than the end of the Roll to Miss step, because the Orb would be activated during the Avoid Attack step, before the FP has another opportunity to reveal. You thus could not drain 3 mana by revealing the FP after the Orb is used. 

This has certainly been the way that my group has used the card so far.


The Counter Argument:

The key line is "when an object in your zone is melee attacked..." It does not say "during an attack." So the 3 mana needs to be paid at that time the attack begins, at Step One: Declare Attack, and is paid to stake in advance a claim that a Defense will be used at Step Four: Avoid Attack.

If this reading is right, then the Falcon Precision could definitely be used as a de facto 3 mana theft, and the forcemaster holding the Orb needs to think a bit more about whether she wants to use the Orb. ("Oh, the attacker has a Daze condition, so the attack might not get through anyway... Do I risk it?")

I can certainly see the appeal in this argument, since it does balance out the very powerful automatic Defense provided by such a cheap piece of equipment.


Does anyone more knowledgeable of the card's intent have anything to say?
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Puddnhead

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Enchantments can never affect something retroactively. Therefore the latest you could reveal falcon precision is indeed the roll to miss step which is immediately before the avoid attack step. There are no steps to activating abilities.
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Arkdeniz

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There are no steps to activating abilities.

So when can/must you activate the Symbiotic Orb's power and pay for it?
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Zuberi

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There's a few things here, and everyone is kind of hitting on them in bits and pieces.

So, first regarding the possibilities listed by Arkdeniz: The text on the card "when a friendly object in your zone is melee attacked" tells you when the ability occurs. This would override any general rules. So the second possibility is correct.

That said, Puddnhead is also correct in that you can't affect things retroactively.

So, the way it would work, is at the end of the Declare Attack Step the defender could use their orb. Since there are no steps involved in using the orb, there is no chance to respond. The attack is then avoided, and skips to the Additional Strikes step. You could reveal the Falcon Precision before performing the Additional Strikes step, but the attack has ALREADY been avoided, and you can't change that.

The more important thing to this timing, in my opinion, is that the decision to use the orb, and pay the cost for it, has to be made before using most other defenses and even before rolling to miss from things like Daze. The only reason it really matters that it counts as a Defense is with regards to other Academy cards like Dodge which also happen at the end of the Declare Attack step.

Edit: to try and avoid confusion.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 12:15:31 AM by Zuberi »

exid

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SO is an academy card... it does not use all the arena steps, so it must be read litterally: "when [...] is attacked" is during the declare attack step (and not during the avoid attack step as it would be with an arena card).

in this case: the attacker declares the attack, you avoid the attack, at the end of the declare attack step the attacker could reveal FP, but it's too late!

Arkdeniz

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The only reason it really matters that it counts as a Defense is with regards to other Academy cards like Dodge which also happen at the end of the Declare Attack step.

I am uncomfortable with the idea that Defenses could fire before the Avoid Attack step.

Might it be more accurate to say that when these cards are used, Attack Steps Two and Three are not actually ignored but are still formally run through even though they have no effect on anything, then the Orb/Dodge Defence kicks in at Step Four (when all other Defences do), and finally you once again formally move through Steps Five and Six until you get to Step Seven: Additional Attacks?

In almost all cases the practical effect of doing this would be the same as having the Defenses kick in at the end of Step One, (since Steps Two and Three are almost certainly just empty shells).
But just in case other card interactions make it messy, it might be best to treat the whole attack process formally as per the Arena rule for Defenses.

These cards come from Academy, and the Academy rules support this approach, I think. Academy states clearly that Defenses (including those that are inherent powers of cards, such as the Jade Gremlin's) still occur in Step Two: Defense Step, and not in Step One: Declare Attack. Thus Defenses do not fire in Step One in either ruleset.

Thoughts?
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exid

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Crotte de bique!!! Zuberi was faster thant I !!!

the academy cards are written for academy... they can be played in the arena but aren't perfectly designed for it.

Arkdeniz

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the academy cards are written for academy... they can be played in the arena but aren't perfectly designed for it.

There is an imperfect cross over between the games, yes.

But in this case where both Academy and Arena have Defenses take effect in later Steps I think there is a case to be made that the Symbiotic orb (and Dodge) - which are both explicitly counted as "Defenses" - do not take effect in the Declare Attack step in either game, because Defenses are used in the Avoid Attack (Arena) or Defense (Academy) Step.

 
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exid

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there are other situations where academy cards have to be adapted, i like to have only one rule, "as written", better than a rule for each situation (and i already plaid the academy's defenses like this for a long time... it would be troubling to change know  ;D ).

the enchantments (as in the situation here) are no problem: FP should be revealed before the defense and could be revealed befor the declaration.
it's different when you have a role to miss or a cost. I don't know if academy has such mechanisms.

Zuberi

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@Arkdeniz: I am sorry that this makes you uncomfortable, but your interpretation is indeed wrong. It's even wrong for Academy, as far as I can see. I am less well versed on Academy rules, but as far as I can tell there is no rule like you imagine that limits defenses to only happening during the Avoid Attack step. Even if there was, the text on the card always overrides general rules and both Jade Gremlin and Symbiotic Orb say that they happen "when attacked". Which means at the end of the Declare Attack step in both Academy and in Arena. If it was meant to happen during the Avoid Attack step, then it would say that.