October 20, 2018, 04:34:25 AM

Author Topic: Focused Strike and other Academy Cards: "attack" means "attack action" in Arena?  (Read 724 times)

Miroque

  • New Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
I got different answers from the German Mage Wars Community, so I wanted to make it clear:

The Academy Card "Focused Strike" says:
"The target's next non-spell attack this round rolls an additional attack die, gains the Piercing +1 trait, and the Unavoidable trait."

Is "attack" in Academy always equal to use with "attack action" in Arena (when you take this cards in your Arena games)? According to this two threads about Shifratar and Badger Frenzy, I think it could:
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=18511.0
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=18513.msg88581#msg88581

And there are other Academy Spells like "Straywood Scout" or even "Pigmy Titanodon", which refers to "making an attack" or something similar.

So because Focused Strike doesn't say "Melee +1", I assume that (in Arena) it rolls one more die of each attack in an attack action, for instance Triplestrike (Hydra), Doublestrike (Badger Frenzy) or Sweeping (Shifratar). Is that true or not? (the same question about the Piercing +1 and the Unavoidable part)
On top you could add Battle Fury, for instance targeting a "Deptonne Berserker" making his quick Doublestrike attack twice (if there is a bleed condition around).

In the Supplement we have clarifications on "Piercing Strike" and "Perfect Strke" ("only affects the next attack, not the entire next attack action"), but for those Academy Cards we don't.

Or maybe there are differences between the cards: So with Focused Strike you can get 4 more dices (plus Piercing and Unavoidable) out of an Battle Fury+Badger Frendy attack, but only affecting the first strike of the Triplestrike from the Hydra...?

RomeoXero

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 596
  • Banana Stickers 6
    • View Profile
the additional attack only applies to the very next attack that creature makes. in every case (straywood scout, charge, bear strength, hawkeye, focused strike, etc) the extra die gained only applies to the first attack. so a doublestrikeing timberwolf lets say, would roll 5 dice on the 1st and 4 dice on the 2nd attack.
  • Favourite Mage: Wychwood Druid
I love this game. Its awesome!

jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1033
  • Banana Stickers 19
    • View Profile
When the card says “for the next attack” you can get it once or not at all (if you don’t attack).
Doing a sweeping strike is in this context is 2 attacks. Only the first benefits.

If the creature is guarding from last round while you cast this and it does a counter strike then it will use this “buff” during the coubterstrike and will not receive it again when activating during the turn.

If it had bear strength on the other hand... then it will both get +2 melee when doing counter strike and when activating later.
If either of this attack did sweeping/double/triple it would only get he bonus for the very first attack of the counterstrike and the very first attack made from its action later for a total of 2 benefits assuming its attacked while guarding and actually does a counter strike. 

Wolffury grants the piercing on every attack including sweeping/double/triple. But the +melee part is similar to bear strength.


You mention badger.
It does not “stack” with battle fury for a total of 4 attack’s.
If an ordinary minor animal creature has badger frenzy and is before it attacks being buffed with battle fury then it will do 1 attack with double strike. When those 2 are resolved (including giving opponent a single chance to counter strike and a single potential damage barrier), then it will start a new attack sequence (assuming its alive) where it can target same or a new target with a single attack that has no double strike. Opponent gets new chance to counterstrike (if able and potential damage barrier can trigger again).
« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 10:07:02 PM by jacksmack »

Miroque

  • New Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Quote
You mention badger.
It does not “stack” with battle fury for a total of 4 attack’s.
If an ordinary minor animal creature has badger frenzy and is before it attacks being buffed with battle fury then it will do 1 attack with double strike. When those 2 are resolved (including giving opponent a single chance to counter strike and a single potential damage barrier), then it will start a new attack sequence (assuming its alive) where it can target same or a new target with a single attack that has no double strike. Opponent gets new chance to counterstrike (if able and potential damage barrier can trigger again).

I'm not so sure about that. We played it that way at German Nationals (4 attacks with Battle Fury+Badger Frenzy), because of this thread and Zuberi's answer: http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=18511.0
("Badger Frenzy is destroyed at step 10 [...]. If you cast Battle Fury as well, then you will indeed get 4 attacks. Doubling up on Doublestrike is absolutely very powerful, and something that we watched during playtesting.")

So you go to the steps 8 damage barrier and 9 counterstrike, and after that, another quick Doublestrike attack happens. Zuberi mentioned only that "neither badger frenzy nor battle fury would activate in conjunction with a sweeping strike / whirling strike", because these two spells tell to "use a full action to make a quick action melee attack" (Battle Fury requires a quick action, and now it is a full action). 

I'm just a little confused with zot's reply on page 2 (same thread), in which he mentioned Shifratar+Battle Fury only gets max. 3 attacks. But it seems to be the same day, Zuberi and zot agreed on max. 4 attacks, in this thread: http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=18513.msg88581#msg88581 :o

exid

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 856
  • Banana Stickers 4
  • The longer the better!
    • View Profile
Badger frenzy is an enchantment, that makes the difference: it will stay on the creature.
that's why both of the battlefury's attacks are, one after the other, "the next attack" and get the double strike.

exid

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 856
  • Banana Stickers 4
  • The longer the better!
    • View Profile
with shifratar, i would say that if you pay mana for the first of BF's attacks, you get sweeping on the first, and if you pay for the second you get sweeping for the second (and you have to pay 2x3 mana to have 4 attacks).

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2484
  • Banana Stickers 56
    • View Profile
As referenced in one of the linked threads, I remember a discussion I had about using the word "attack" to mean different things between the two games would bite us in the butt. In general, I would recommend reading all text on Academy cards, when used in Arena, to mean the same thing they generally would in Arena. So this would only work on one attack, like the other "Strike" cards. And I'm pretty sure that was the intention.

The problem is, that causes some of the other academy cards to behave a bit wonky in Arena. In Arena, each roll of the dice is one attack, and the entirety of the attack steps is an attack action. Normally if something gained a trait for one attack, it would lose it before doing another attack in the "Additional Strikes" step. But having that happen with traits like doublestrike and sweeping doesn't make sense because it would lose them before they could actually be utilized. They become nonsense on certain Academy cards and the cards would be useless if played as written. Obviously, we're not going to have useless cards. So we had to do some mental gymnastics and make special exceptions for them to get them to work. This resulted in "well, attack should just be attack action in this case." That allows those cards to function and makes sense because Academy has the two terms being synonymous. But these should really be considered special exceptions, and not a precedent to judge other cards by. In general, just play the cards as written.

wtcannonjr

  • Ambassador of Wychwood
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 741
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
    • WBC Mage Wars Tournament
As referenced in one of the linked threads, I remember a discussion I had about using the word "attack" to mean different things between the two games would bite us in the butt. In general, I would recommend reading all text on Academy cards, when used in Arena, to mean the same thing they generally would in Arena. So this would only work on one attack, like the other "Strike" cards. And I'm pretty sure that was the intention.

The problem is, that causes some of the other academy cards to behave a bit wonky in Arena. In Arena, each roll of the dice is one attack, and the entirety of the attack steps is an attack action. Normally if something gained a trait for one attack, it would lose it before doing another attack in the "Additional Strikes" step. But having that happen with traits like doublestrike and sweeping doesn't make sense because it would lose them before they could actually be utilized. They become nonsense on certain Academy cards and the cards would be useless if played as written. Obviously, we're not going to have useless cards. So we had to do some mental gymnastics and make special exceptions for them to get them to work. This resulted in "well, attack should just be attack action in this case." That allows those cards to function and makes sense because Academy has the two terms being synonymous. But these should really be considered special exceptions, and not a precedent to judge other cards by. In general, just play the cards as written.

Should we add this to the "rules uncertainty" thread?  :)

Perhaps the next version of the Rules Supplement could have a section that explains all the differences between Academy and Arena rules, terminology, etc. This would help players of both product lines and potential customers.
  • Favourite Mage: Wychwood Druid
"Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin

Sailor Vulcan

  • Secret Identity: Imaginator
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3128
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
It's annoying when I have to explain to new Academy players how double strike and sweeping work. Clearer terminology would help in Academy too. This isn't just a problem in Arena.

Personally I think it was a mistake to change so much of the terminology between Arena and Academy. It makes it confusing to transition between them. I also think it should use the terms "action" and "quick cast action", instead of "activation" and "quick cast". The action phase should instead be called the actions phase. That way it's clear: during the actions phase, creatures perform their actions. That way it would be much more intuitive, and I wouldn't have to re-explain it over and over and over again every single time I play Academy with my few irl Academy -playing friends.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using Tapatalk

  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster
I am Sailor Vulcan! Champion of justice and reason! And yes, I am already aware my uniform is considered flashy, unprofessional, and borderline sexually provocative for my species by most intelligent lifeforms. I did not choose this outfit. Shut up.

Enti

  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 152
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
No no, rules are crystal clear and no problem. Haven't you read the thread? Tzzz! :P

jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1033
  • Banana Stickers 19
    • View Profile
How does” sweeping strike” interact with a quick action melee double strike ? (You must p
(Either badger frenzy minor animal creature or the bloodthirsty shark.)

Do you get 2 attacks on target A and 4 attacks on target B?
Or
2 attacks on target A and 2 attacks on target?
Or
Something else I can’t figure out.

exid

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 856
  • Banana Stickers 4
  • The longer the better!
    • View Profile
"once this round" on sweeping strike.
so, the shark gets the sweeping on one strike and normal on the other strike.

Kharhaz

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2091
  • Banana Stickers 6
    • View Profile
How does” sweeping strike” interact with a quick action melee double strike ? (You must p
(Either badger frenzy minor animal creature or the bloodthirsty shark.)

Do you get 2 attacks on target A and 4 attacks on target B?
Or
2 attacks on target A and 2 attacks on target?
Or
Something else I can’t figure out.

Some traits, such as Triplestrike, allow the attacker to make
additional attacks against the same target. Once the first
strike is finished, you get to make these additional strikes.

Each additional strike is resolved, one at a time, following
these 4 steps: Roll to Miss, Avoid Attack, Roll Dice, Damage
and Effects.

Note: All of these strikes are still part of the same attack
action, and the defender will still only get one damage
barrier attack and one counterstrike!

After the final strike is resolved, proceed to Step 8.

So the attack has both the sweeping and doublestrike traits; you resolve each additional attack one at a time at a legal target for that additional attack.

exid

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 856
  • Banana Stickers 4
  • The longer the better!
    • View Profile
Some traits, such as Triplestrike, allow the attacker to make
additional attacks against the same target. Once the first
strike is finished, you get to make these additional strikes.

Each additional strike is resolved, one at a time, following
these 4 steps: Roll to Miss, Avoid Attack, Roll Dice, Damage
and Effects.

Note: All of these strikes are still part of the same attack
action, and the defender will still only get one damage
barrier attack and one counterstrike!

After the final strike is resolved, proceed to Step 8.

So the attack has both the sweeping and doublestrike traits; you resolve each additional attack one at a time at a legal target for that additional attack.
oups... i answered to quickly...
so, the extra attacks allways apply on attack action?
 

jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1033
  • Banana Stickers 19
    • View Profile
I’m still confused....

What’s the answer? 2 or 4?