June 20, 2018, 02:21:22 AM

Author Topic: Focused Strike and other Academy Cards: "attack" means "attack action" in Arena?  (Read 369 times)

exid

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;D
when you make an attack ACTION, you get one more attack for the doublestrike and one more attack for the sweeping.
but i'm not sure...

and with battle fury?
since the 2 attacks are part of the same attack action, is it right that a doublestrike or sweeping trait wold only add 1 attack (not 1 attack for each BF's attack)?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 10:55:12 AM by exid »

Kharhaz

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So a creature with both the double and sweeping traits on an attack (regardless how it happens for clarity)


You go through the steps as per normal. When you get to additional strikes you can use doublestrike.

at the end of the attack you use your sweeping attack sequence to make an attack at a different creature, since it is still part of the same sequence you do not get another doublestrike.

Adding battle fury on top is easy, but its not worded that way. Battle fury will add to the end of the sequence, with a brand new attack sequence (as per the card text), but it is still considered part of the original attack.

You can reveal reveal badger frenzy after the original attack sequence, during the battle fury or sweeping sequences, and make use of the additional attack at the end of either of those, but its always in the Same original "attack" so you only get the traits effect once.

Make sense?


« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 12:10:19 PM by Kharhaz »

exid

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Make sense?
euh... i'm lost...

i understand the traits, that have a step to make a loop.
but why double strike before sweeeping? (why coudn't i strike once the first creature and two times the second?)

now, BF makes a new attack in the attack action. is it written somewhere that the traits apply only for the first attack?

last, with badger frenzy, i can't see why it woudn't give double strike to both of BF's attack, since both are "the next" at turn.

Kharhaz

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Doublestrike (Attack Trait)
This attack makes a second attack against the same target as part of
the same attack action. The additional attack occurs during the
Additional Strikes Step.


Doublestrike must be used in the additional attack sequence.
Sweeping and Battle fury are seperate attack sequences that happen at the end of the original attack sequence.


Badger Frenzy says, "the next attack" and "that attack gains doublestrike". So you can only ever get one attack from BF, yes they're in the same action but it's a seperate attack that is in addition to the first sequence.

Sweeping and Battlefury let you make another attack, as part of the same attack action.

jacksmack

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 according to the link someone posted where Zuberi explains that the time that battle fury occurs and the destruction effect of badger frenzy is simultaneous- so the obvious choice is to resolve battle fury before destruction of the enchantment.

Text on enchantment just says “next attack”. And apparently next attack can happen many times (and benefit).


exid

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we have different interpretations here!

1) badger frenzy is a special case, i read it as Jacksmack does: there can be many "next attacks" until the enchantment is destroyed.

2) if there is multiple attacks (BF or sweeping), each attack has an additional strike step, i think each attack should get the additional strike.

3) if you have multiple multiple attacks (BF and sweeping)... but i think we don't have the cards to make that happen...

jacksmack

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3) if you have multiple multiple attacks (BF and sweeping)... but i think we don't have the cards to make that happen...

What’s wrong with casting sweeping strike and battle fury on deptonne berserker when there is something bleeding in the zone?

exid

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3) if you have multiple multiple attacks (BF and sweeping)... but i think we don't have the cards to make that happen...
What’s wrong with casting sweeping strike and battle fury on deptonne berserker when there is something bleeding in the zone?
right... ok... my vision of the situation:
the shark has double strike
the attack gains sweeping if full action
there's one more quick attack
-> the shark can use a full action to make double strike on a first creature and double strike on a second creature, after that he can make a double strike on any creature -> TOTAL = 6 strikes

Arkdeniz

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3) if you have multiple multiple attacks (BF and sweeping)... but i think we don't have the cards to make that happen...
What’s wrong with casting sweeping strike and battle fury on deptonne berserker when there is something bleeding in the zone?
right... ok... my vision of the situation:
the shark has double strike
the attack gains sweeping if full action
there's one more quick attack
-> the shark can use a full action to make double strike on a first creature and double strike on a second creature, after that he can make a double strike on any creature -> TOTAL = 6 strikes

I have been trying my hardest to show how this is wrong, since it does not make intuitive sense to me.

However, If we accept that traits cannot be lost, I cannot find a hole in this thinking.

The casting of Sweeping Attack on the Berserker means that the quick action doublestrike attack is converted to a full action sweeping doublestrike attack. 

So this means that the Berserker makes two successive doublestrike attacks against two targets, changing between them at Step 7, additional strikes.

Once that is done, we proceed to Step 10, Attack Ends, where the Battle Fury kicks in, allowing the Berserker to make a final quick attack. As the Berserker’s only quick attack can be a doublestrike, this could allow the Berserker to hit one target an additional two times.

Now, I am not sure if this is rules as intended, but since it needs such a deliberate set up by the Berserker’s player in order to trigger, I would be willing to let it go if an opponent launched the sequence.

(To get 6 x 3 dice attacks, it is so much easier to simply cast Overextend on Ludwig Boltstorm...)
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Kharhaz

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When in doubt you have to go with the golden rule,

"What's printed on the card overrides the rules"

Frenzy applies to your next attack, which is essentially one roll of the dice, and then is destroyed "after that attack". You cannot extend the duration into another attack. Starting another attack happens after the first which is when the card destroys itself.

Battle fury adds one extra attack ACTION, at the end of your attack current attack ACTION, but it still counts as the same action. It's a new action and all traits that last for one action are removed before you get to the new action.

The sweeping trait in academy works as intended, im not sure why Zuberi is insistant that it wouldn't work as written........ from the academy codex:

"Sweeping
This attack has a wide sweeping arc. After completing its first attack, a Sweeping attack may make a second attack against a different target. The second attack begins with a new Declare Attack Step. The second attack cannot be made against the same target as the first attack."

Battle fury with doublestrike (or a sweeping quick melee attack) would apply it's ability to each of the attacks, since as we have seen the doublestrike trait applies only in the additional attack step.

So a Berserker in a zone with a creature that has a bleed conditon and is under the effects of  a sweeping strike, can make a total of 4 attacks (2 primary target, 2 secondary)

It can also make a total of 4 attacks with a battle fury and a creature with a bleed condition in it's zone. (2 first attack, 2 second attack)

And a total of 6 with both traits, as long as the Beserkers ability is still active
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 10:10:42 PM by Kharhaz »

Kharhaz

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To add further confusion to this muddy rules knot:

"Doublestrike
This attack makes a second attack against the same target as part of the same attack action. The additional attack occurs during the Additional Strikes Step."

On a strick RAW, I am not 100% that double strike can even trigger more than once in a single attack action. The wording is clearly a "second" and not "additional" or some other word to indicate it can trigger more than once per attack action, which all of these combo still count as that same attack sequence......

My previous post is assuming that you can use it multiple times, which I don't think you can now.....