August 16, 2018, 08:05:17 PM

Author Topic: Tsunami, can we change how its push works?  (Read 480 times)

Robintheboywonder

  • New Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Tsunami, can we change how its push works?
« on: June 15, 2018, 02:19:09 AM »
so I know the big issue with tsunami is when u cast it and choose which direction it will flow, the push effect acts independently from its direction. Push rules state the casting mage is the source of the push not the spell itself. The thematic argument for tsunami is the wave should push creatures in its direction of flow, so that a creature would be pushed into the next zone in which tsunami will hit. I do not know if the intentions of the makers of the card were to have it align with that thematic or they wanted it to operate how it does currently. there would have to be a good set up to have the spell hit a creature and push it back into the next zone it would be attacking and an even better set up to have a creature be hit with 4 zone attacks plus the potential wall bash at the end. Assuming you can land a 4 time hit with tsunami on a creature with push every single time, you end up with 5x3d roll on the creature. This assumption doesn't take into account any bonus damaging effects on the creature or if the creature would be pushed through an attack passage wall.

I would just like to know how balanced, whether overpowered or strong but not op or more of a neutrally balanced, tsunami would be if we stuck to the thematic idea for it. Also I would like to know your thoughts on how the card is currently, is it underpowered or underrated? community feedback of any kind will be graciously accepted.

exid

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 844
  • Banana Stickers 4
  • The longer the better!
    • View Profile
Re: Tsunami, can we change how its push works?
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2018, 02:36:17 AM »
i think its a "not so good" card, because
1) you don't allways find the right opportunity to cast it with 4 free-of-your-own-objets zones behind
2) the push can miss
3) if the wall with passage trait blocs LoS the Tsunami ends

Drefan

  • Playtester
  • Full Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 144
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Tsunami, can we change how its push works?
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2018, 02:47:15 AM »
"When Tsunami is cast, choose a direction. After the attack resolves, repeat the attack one zone farther..."
I believe most of us on Octagon, even in tournaments play it like that. Choose zone, then the direction is also where the push is towards. So you can attack + push from point a to b.

I do not believe its overpowered, it's a good card for sure but it costs a lot.
+ tons of small attacks and pushes
- if the target(s) have armor, the dmg will be significantly reduced.

I do not think it's overpowered, it's a good card but pretty situational.
  • Favourite Mage: Wychwood Druid
Octagon user: Drefan

exid

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 844
  • Banana Stickers 4
  • The longer the better!
    • View Profile
Re: Tsunami, can we change how its push works?
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2018, 03:48:51 AM »
the push must go "away", so if you want to make a 4 hits tsunami, the caster must be in the first zone...

Robintheboywonder

  • New Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Tsunami, can we change how its push works?
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2018, 10:25:22 PM »
to Drefan, yeah house rules on tsunami sound good. making it push the way u would think it would which isn't standard.
to exid, you listed 3 bullet points on a post. I have a concern about number 3. You are saying a wall with passage block trait prevents tsunami from going further, which makes since. Or are u saying if a wall which blocks line of sight but allows passage would also end the tsunami because now the spell is 'out of sight.' I agree with the first one, tsunami goes until it hits a blocking wall, like the arena border or wall of stone. but to say the spell ends because LoS is preventing the spell from casting on the zone feels off. if u could maybe set up a situation where that would be the case.

Coshade

  • Arcane Duels Host
  • Global Moderator
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1831
  • Banana Stickers 6
    • View Profile
    • Arcane Duels!
Re: Tsunami, can we change how its push works?
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2018, 11:51:24 PM »
the push must go "away", so if you want to make a 4 hits tsunami, the caster must be in the first zone...

This is RAW if anyone not commenting on the thread is wondering. Best way to think of it imo is if a jet stream were being cast how would push it behave, it's the same effect for Tsunami as well as other independant effects not related to the push going on. While I do love house rules, I personally don't feel a change is needed for this card.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 11:53:29 PM by Coshade »
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

Robintheboywonder

  • New Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Tsunami, can we change how its push works?
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2018, 11:54:56 PM »
I was looking it over and tsunami isnt as bad as I thought, but I did have  bad experience with it recently. but I figured the push does work the way I feel like it should, just not on the initial zone its cast.


if the top left corner of the board is zone 1 and you continue to count each zone across the board until you hit the right top corner which is zone 4. Then return to the left mid section counting it as zone 5 and continue across the board until you reach zone 8. the bottom zones will be 9-12. this is to set up an example for tsunami cast and push effect.

So if the mage is in zone 12, the bottom right corner and cast tsunami in the zone above them, zone 8, and chooses to have the spell move along the middle toward zone 5 then any creature in zone 8 gets pushed into zone 4, following the official push rules. Now once the tsunami moves into zone 7 for the next attack push works in your favor. A creature must be pushed one zone away from the caster unlike the first zone it attacked, where creatures were pushed upward from the mage, the mage has an option to push the creatures upward into zone 3 or better yet push one zone away into zone 6. This is how tsunami can be strong, because creatures are pushed into the next zone will be hit again by the attack.

I think my issue was with the initial cast having the creature not be pushed along with the spell. But unless im wrong u can push the creatures in the subsequent zones into the path of the next tsunami attack. tsunami isnt as bad as I thought if it follows the example I have laid out. it can deal a bunch of damage to several creatures and keep displacing them further away from your location. u can have it hit a battle forge in the enemy's backline, dealing 3d + hydro 3 which could do some serious damage or if you are lucky destroy it. tsunami can be useful, maybe not OP, and strongest when up against a swarm deck for more targets hit.

exid

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 844
  • Banana Stickers 4
  • The longer the better!
    • View Profile
Re: Tsunami, can we change how its push works?
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2018, 12:16:24 AM »
to exid, you listed 3 bullet points on a post. I have a concern about number 3. You are saying a wall with passage block trait prevents tsunami from going further, which makes since. Or are u saying if a wall which blocks line of sight but allows passage would also end the tsunami because now the spell is 'out of sight.' I agree with the first one, tsunami goes until it hits a blocking wall, like the arena border or wall of stone. but to say the spell ends because LoS is preventing the spell from casting on the zone feels off. if u could maybe set up a situation where that would be the case.
my number 3 was ill written: a wall that let the passage open (with or without attack) but blocs LoS ends the tsunami.

example:
- ABC are three zones in a row, i'm in A, there's a wall of thorns between B and C.
- I cast a tsunami on B in the direction of C. my opponent 's bear is hit and pushed in C, hit by the wall.
- I could now repeat the attack on C... but I need a LoS to make an attack (step 1) and the wall blocs LoS, so my tsunami ends.

steack

  • Playtester
  • Full Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 208
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
    • http://magewarsfr.forumactif.org/
Re: Tsunami, can we change how its push works?
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2018, 04:09:06 AM »
to exid, you listed 3 bullet points on a post. I have a concern about number 3. You are saying a wall with passage block trait prevents tsunami from going further, which makes since. Or are u saying if a wall which blocks line of sight but allows passage would also end the tsunami because now the spell is 'out of sight.' I agree with the first one, tsunami goes until it hits a blocking wall, like the arena border or wall of stone. but to say the spell ends because LoS is preventing the spell from casting on the zone feels off. if u could maybe set up a situation where that would be the case.
my number 3 was ill written: a wall that let the passage open (with or without attack) but blocs LoS ends the tsunami.

example:
- ABC are three zones in a row, i'm in A, there's a wall of thorns between B and C.
- I cast a tsunami on B in the direction of C. my opponent 's bear is hit and pushed in C, hit by the wall.
- I could now repeat the attack on C... but I need a LoS to make an attack (step 1) and the wall blocs LoS, so my tsunami ends.


Exid, the attack of a tsunami is a taget' s zone, if the bear has pushed out of the zone , the tsunami ignore the bear and continue his progression... . 

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AqnUiD8jBmnlmDrLPbG_Cn2CT6Ft

sorry, i have only the french version^^
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 04:15:26 AM by steack »
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord

exid

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 844
  • Banana Stickers 4
  • The longer the better!
    • View Profile
Re: Tsunami, can we change how its push works?
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2018, 04:29:13 AM »
the attack should be on zone C (where the bear is now, that would hit it again!), but i don't have LoS to the zone C and can't make the second attack (and therefore can't hit the bear again).

steack

  • Playtester
  • Full Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 208
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
    • http://magewarsfr.forumactif.org/
Re: Tsunami, can we change how its push works?
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2018, 06:27:20 AM »
For me the Los is necessary for casting the spell,here the zone cibled.
With a  zone attack effect , the are no  creatures cibled . If a creature can be get out the zone , this creature has no attacked . it s all .

 
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord

exid

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 844
  • Banana Stickers 4
  • The longer the better!
    • View Profile
Re: Tsunami, can we change how its push works?
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2018, 06:57:06 AM »
For me the Los is necessary for casting the spell,here the zone cibled.
With a  zone attack effect , the are no  creatures cibled . If a creature can be get out the zone , this creature has no attacked . it s all .
the second attack must target its target (step 1 of an attack) -> the second zone.
( ;D why do we do that in english?!?)

steack

  • Playtester
  • Full Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 208
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
    • http://magewarsfr.forumactif.org/
Re: Tsunami, can we change how its push works?
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2018, 08:28:23 AM »
 8)

bonne question :)
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord

wtcannonjr

  • Ambassador of Wychwood
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 696
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
    • WBC Mage Wars Tournament
Re: Tsunami, can we change how its push works?
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2018, 06:24:46 AM »
Our house rule is to simply have the Tsunami spell become the source of the attack after the initial cast spell action has resolved. The direction the spell moves/pushes is set as a spell effect by the mage when the spell resolves. LOS does not become an issue after casting the spell.
  • Favourite Mage: Wychwood Druid
"Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin