December 12, 2018, 06:54:21 AM

Author Topic: Rules Cleanup (The Mage Wars Community Self-Management Project)  (Read 980 times)

Sailor Vulcan

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There are a number of messy or broken rules interactions that need fixing, and all of the rules need to be better organized in one place.

Here's how we're going to do things:

1. We're going to compile a list of rules interactions that need fixing. Any rules interactions that you think are messy or broken, post them below so I can add them to the list here.
2. Any fixes we're unsure about we will playtest.
3. We will organize all of the revised rules into a new 1.5 rules document and post it on the forums as well as on facebook so both competitive and casual mage wars players can see it.

Our focus will be solely on Arena for now. Later if Academy starts getting messy or broken rules interactions for itself we might visit that, but for now this thread will only focus on Arena.


List of rules/rules interactions that need fixing




Post away!
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 03:01:57 PM by Sailor Vulcan »
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DaveW

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Re: Rules Cleanup (The Mage Wars Community Self-Management Project)
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2018, 07:12:00 PM »
Is this the right place to put alternate / homebrew rules?

You aren't speaking for AW, in terms of an official rules revision, are you?
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Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Rules Cleanup (The Mage Wars Community Self-Management Project)
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2018, 09:24:36 PM »
Is this the right place to put alternate / homebrew rules?

You aren't speaking for AW, in terms of an official rules revision, are you?

Arcane Wonders is barely paying attention to these forums anymore. They've only posted like once maybe twice this whole year. And they don't have any of their employees moderating it any more, instead they're relying on coshade to do that, and I doubt coshade is going to stop me from posting this here. He probably agrees with me about this.

Besides, it's not like this section of the forums is being used for much of anything else. And the title of this section of the forums is "rules discussion". Not "official arcane wonders sanctioned rules discussion". Just "rules discussion". If arcane wonders wants to tell me to stop, they can post on here themselves to tell me that, like they should have been doing all along.

Also, that's why this is called the mage wars *community SELF-management* project. I would think that would be a dead giveaway that I don't work for Arcane Wonders.

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« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 09:27:17 PM by Sailor Vulcan »
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exid

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Re: Rules Cleanup (The Mage Wars Community Self-Management Project)
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2018, 02:22:31 AM »
Is it usefull that I post here the "rules supplement supplement" we use in my group (about 40 points we clarified from what we read here, our discussions, our preferences, etc.)?

Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Rules Cleanup (The Mage Wars Community Self-Management Project)
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2018, 03:51:40 PM »
Is it usefull that I post here the "rules supplement supplement" we use in my group (about 40 points we clarified from what we read here, our discussions, our preferences, etc.)?
Maybe. They might include some good suggestions. I would want to see it though. Ultimately I'm hoping any changes or additions we make are sound enough that Arcane Duels will add them to the admw rules. Otherwise we'd be unnecessarily fracturing the community.

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zot

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Re: Rules Cleanup (The Mage Wars Community Self-Management Project)
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2018, 08:43:36 PM »
looking forward to zuberi weighing in on some higher priority items that could use clarification.

exid

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Re: Rules Cleanup (The Mage Wars Community Self-Management Project)
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2018, 02:05:14 AM »
here it is:
(all the "Fs" mean that the rule was aproved on the Forum)

RULES

    1. Attack modifier : if a modifier that applies only to the first attack of an attack action is mooved to another object after the first attack and mooved back, it will apply again. (F)
    2. Befor or after an action phase : events that take place during these periods can occure in any order (c.f. Initiative). (F)
    3. Burn : does flame damages. (F)
    4. Caster : when a card or rule refers to the "caster" it is the object that casted the spell, but "you" is the mage (the caster's controler if it is not a mage). (F)
    5. Conditions : if a creature recieves a condition that should be processed or removed at the end of its action phase during its action phase, it will be processed or removed at the end of its next action phase. (F)
    6. Damages : to recieve or deal 0 damage is not recieve or deale damage. (F)
    7. Duplicates : you can't have more than one copy of an object attached to the same thing. (F)
    8. Enchantments: hidden enchantments have no trait (exceptions : cantrip, decoy). (F)
    9. Formation :
        ◦ both effects are only in the zone. (F)
        ◦ second effect can be used only once per trigger. (F)
    10. Imunity : a creature can't intercept an attack it is imune to. (F)
    11. Imunity : a creature can't melee attack in a zone if all guards are imune to its attack (except if it is elusive). (F)
    12. Incapacitate : if a creature becomes incapacitate after the declare attack step, the attack stops. (house rule)
    13. Initiative : (F)
        ◦ The player with initiative goes first if both players want to act simultaneously.
        ◦ The order of resolution of simultaneous effects from the same cause is choosed by the controler of the cause.
        ◦ Special upkeep: during the upkeep it's the controler of the objects affected who chooses the order of the effects.
        ◦ Problem : if the normal rules don't solve the timing issue, the player with initiative chooses who plays.
            ▪ For example, during upkeep, if an object A, that should be destructed during upkeep, affects an opponent's object B. The player with initiative can choose A's controler (who must destroy A without effect) or B's controler (who must resolve A's effect on B befor A is destroyed).
            ▪ For example, during upkeep, if an effect on object A affects an opponent's object B too. The player with initiative can choose A's controler (who can resolve the effect on A, what forces B to resolve it simultaneously) or B's controler (who can resolve another effect befor A's controler forces him to resolvee the first effect).
    14. Intercept : the interceptor becomes the target. (F)
    15. Intercept : a creature can't intercept an attack that tagets it. (F)
    16. Mage's ability counter : If the object's controler changes, the abilty's doesn't (F):
    Pet receives +1 Melee with his first controler
    Bloodreaper is able to heal his first controler
    Eternal Servant can be reanimated by his first controler
    Holy Avenger gets bonus for the creatures and holy conjurations friendly to his first controler
    Bonded tree is still bonded to his first controler
    Veterans continue as usual
    Runes : Fortification and Precision go with the object // Power, and Shielding are useless // Reforging is bound to the owner
      ERRATA : if the equipment is stolen, the rune stays on it but has no effect for other controlers (house rull)
    17. Numbers : negative numbers don't exist. (F)
    18. Reach : reach doesn't affect flying creatures (except with sweeping: a flying creature with a reach + sweeping attack can attack a flying and a non flying creature in the same attack action). (F)
    19. Spell level: a "3x & 2y" spell is a level 5 spell of school x and a level 5 spell of school y, but a mage trained up to level n in school x will pay the x level simple when building if [x level]<=n. (F)
    20. Spellbind : when changing the bound spell, you can take another card of the same spell but not the same card. (F)
       ERRATA when the spell is cast, it's discarded (house rule)
       ERRATA a new spell can be bound during planning (house rule)
    21. Trample : a trample attack is a contact attac but no melee attack , many situations must be   decided.
        ◦ Elusive creatures can't ignore guards when trample (F)
        ◦ ERRATA Flying creatures loose flying during trample (house rule)
        ◦ +x/-x melee don't affect trample (F)
        ◦ ERRATA a defense that doesn't affect melee doesn't affect trample (house rule)
    22. If 2 effects trigger on the same condition, both resolve. (house rule)
    23. V'Tar orbs : when an orb is turned on by a mage who is part of a team, this mage gaines the "residual" mana or healing. (F)
    24. V'Tar orbs - Faulty Orbs variant : the orbs are turned on by controling the zone too. (F)
    25. Walls : walls are at range 0 and at range 1 from an adjacent zone. Adjacent zones are at range 1 from the wall. (F)
    26. Walls : walls of a certain type affect objects imune to this type in matter of LOS and passage block. (F)

CARDS

    1. Arcane ward : triggers during the declare step. (F)
    2. Enchantment transfusion : there must be LOS from the ET to the new target of the enchantment. (F)
    3. Flank attack : the piercing bonus is only for one attack (not for the whole attack action). (F)
    4. Forcefield : counters a damage barrier. (F)
    5. Force orb / sword : isn't affected by conditions, or incapacitated or restrained. (F)
    6. Gurmash : uses warlord's orders as he would have the same text on his card. (house rule)
    7. Izimbila : has the subtype befor casted. (F)
    8. Joined strength : the damage's source doesn't change. (F)
    9. Mana prism : the loss can be caused directly by the spell or ability, or by an upkeep cost or a mana drain/transfer effect caused by the spell or ability. (F)
    10. ERRATA Quicksand : can't target uncontainable creatures. (F)
    11. Reverse attack : the reversed attack can't be avoided. (F)
    12. Reverse magic : the reversed spell can be countered (but the countering is non-mandatory for a nulify). (F)
    13. Seedlingpod : is sacrificied as part of the casting of the spell. (F)
    14. ERRATA Steep hill : cuts LoS that goes accros his zone diagonally. (house rull)


(and I should add, that we announce our mages before building)
« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 03:01:14 AM by exid »

Kelanen

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Re: Rules Cleanup (The Mage Wars Community Self-Management Project)
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2018, 07:01:02 AM »
Is this the right place to put alternate / homebrew rules?

You aren't speaking for AW, in terms of an official rules revision, are you?

Agreed. Sailor has a constant need to tinker with the game and propose variants, and personally, I find it destructive to the game. Yes AW has also been destroying it, but no need to add to it.

Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Rules Cleanup (The Mage Wars Community Self-Management Project)
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2018, 08:07:55 AM »
Is this the right place to put alternate / homebrew rules?

You aren't speaking for AW, in terms of an official rules revision, are you?

Agreed. Sailor has a constant need to tinker with the game and propose variants, and personally, I find it destructive to the game. Yes AW has also been destroying it, but no need to add to it.

Now you're just exaggerating and/or lying. People almost never play any of the variants I make. Mostly they just play Arena and Domination, rarely academy and every once in a blue moon somebody has a team game. I didn't make any of *those* formats.

As for other ways of tinkering with the game besides variants, this is the first time I've ever started a thread to propose houserules. Before now the only houserules I've used were the admw ones that we already had, which Arcane Duels made, NOT ME.

Aside from that, the only other creative things I've done with this game are writing fanfiction and making interesting creative spellbooks. And a few custom maps that rarely get used as well.

If people want to use my custom maps or play my alternate variants every once in a blue moon, that's THEIR CHOICE. That isn't destroying the game by any means since most everyone still prefers the standard arena format and spends most of their time playing that.

If you have a problem with me for some other reason I suggest you say it instead of making things up.

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« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 08:12:49 AM by Sailor Vulcan »
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Zuberi

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Re: Rules Cleanup (The Mage Wars Community Self-Management Project)
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2018, 02:08:45 PM »
I think this is a good idea. Compiling all of the rules into a single document would be very useful, and it will be easy enough to indicate any rulings that are still pending official clarification.

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Re: Rules Cleanup (The Mage Wars Community Self-Management Project)
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2018, 06:05:31 PM »
I think this is a good idea. Compiling all of the rules into a single document would be very useful, and it will be easy enough to indicate any rulings that are still pending official clarification.

Isn't that what the Codex was for? How many different locations do people have to look for rules?
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Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Rules Cleanup (The Mage Wars Community Self-Management Project)
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2018, 06:07:04 PM »
I think this is a good idea. Compiling all of the rules into a single document would be very useful, and it will be easy enough to indicate any rulings that are still pending official clarification.

Isn't that what the Codex was for? How many different locations do people have to look for rules?
For official rules, currently four: main rulebook, rule supplement, codex and the forums.

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exid

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Re: Rules Cleanup (The Mage Wars Community Self-Management Project)
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2018, 02:10:56 AM »
I think this is a good idea. Compiling all of the rules into a single document would be very useful, and it will be easy enough to indicate any rulings that are still pending official clarification.

Isn't that what the Codex was for? How many different locations do people have to look for rules?
the codex is a compilation of all the codex that are in each  core&expansions rulebooks. it shouldn't bring anything new.

for now we have the core&expansions rulebooks and the supplement. since the supplement isn't updated any more (it was never complete in my opinion), we could create a supplement's supplement.
i tried to bring this idea a few years ago (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=17282.0)... but since nobody followed, i created my own doc (above).
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 02:14:32 AM by exid »

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Re: Rules Cleanup (The Mage Wars Community Self-Management Project)
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2018, 08:10:38 AM »
here it is:
(all the "Fs" mean that the rule was aproved on the Forum)

RULES

    1. Attack modifier : if a modifier that applies only to the first attack of an attack action is mooved to another object after the first attack and mooved back, it will apply again. (F)
    2. Befor or after an action phase : events that take place during these periods can occure in any order (c.f. Initiative). (F)
    3. Burn : does flame damages. (F)
    4. Caster : when a card or rule refers to the "caster" it is the object that casted the spell, but "you" is the mage (the caster's controler if it is not a mage). (F)
    5. Conditions : if a creature recieves a condition that should be processed or removed at the end of its action phase during its action phase, it will be processed or removed at the end of its next action phase. (F)
    6. Damages : to recieve or deal 0 damage is not recieve or deale damage. (F)
    7. Duplicates : you can't have more than one copy of an object attached to the same thing. (F)
    8. Enchantments: hidden enchantments have no trait (exceptions : cantrip, decoy). (F)
    9. Formation :
        ◦ both effects are only in the zone. (F)
        ◦ second effect can be used only once per trigger. (F)
    10. Imunity : a creature can't intercept an attack it is imune to. (F)
    11. Imunity : a creature can't melee attack in a zone if all guards are imune to its attack (except if it is elusive). (F)
    12. Incapacitate : if a creature becomes incapacitate after the declare attack step, the attack stops. (house rule)
    13. Initiative : (F)
        ◦ The player with initiative goes first if both players want to act simultaneously.
        ◦ The order of resolution of simultaneous effects from the same cause is choosed by the controler of the cause.
        ◦ Special upkeep: during the upkeep it's the controler of the objects affected who chooses the order of the effects.
        ◦ Problem : if the normal rules don't solve the timing issue, the player with initiative chooses who plays.
            ▪ For example, during upkeep, if an object A, that should be destructed during upkeep, affects an opponent's object B. The player with initiative can choose A's controler (who must destroy A without effect) or B's controler (who must resolve A's effect on B befor A is destroyed).
            ▪ For example, during upkeep, if an effect on object A affects an opponent's object B too. The player with initiative can choose A's controler (who can resolve the effect on A, what forces B to resolve it simultaneously) or B's controler (who can resolve another effect befor A's controler forces him to resolvee the first effect).
    14. Intercept : the interceptor becomes the target. (F)
    15. Intercept : a creature can't intercept an attack that tagets it. (F)
    16. Mage's ability counter : If the object's controler changes, the abilty's doesn't (F):
    Pet receives +1 Melee with his first controler
    Bloodreaper is able to heal his first controler
    Eternal Servant can be reanimated by his first controler
    Holy Avenger gets bonus for the creatures and holy conjurations friendly to his first controler
    Bonded tree is still bonded to his first controler
    Veterans continue as usual
    Runes : Fortification and Precision go with the object // Power, and Shielding are useless // Reforging is bound to the owner
      ERRATA : if the equipment is stolen, the rune stays on it but has no effect for other controlers (house rull)
    17. Numbers : negative numbers don't exist. (F)
    18. Reach : reach doesn't affect flying creatures (except with sweeping: a flying creature with a reach + sweeping attack can attack a flying and a non flying creature in the same attack action). (F)
    19. Spell level: a "3x & 2y" spell is a level 5 spell of school x and a level 5 spell of school y, but a mage trained up to level n in school x will pay the x level simple when building if [x level]<=n. (F)
    20. Spellbind : when changing the bound spell, you can take another card of the same spell but not the same card. (F)
       ERRATA when the spell is cast, it's discarded (house rule)
       ERRATA a new spell can be bound during planning (house rule)
    21. Trample : a trample attack is a contact attac but no melee attack , many situations must be   decided.
        ◦ Elusive creatures can't ignore guards when trample (F)
        ◦ ERRATA Flying creatures loose flying during trample (house rule)
        ◦ +x/-x melee don't affect trample (F)
        ◦ ERRATA a defense that doesn't affect melee doesn't affect trample (house rule)
    22. If 2 effects trigger on the same condition, both resolve. (house rule)
    23. V'Tar orbs : when an orb is turned on by a mage who is part of a team, this mage gaines the "residual" mana or healing. (F)
    24. V'Tar orbs - Faulty Orbs variant : the orbs are turned on by controling the zone too. (F)
    25. Walls : walls are at range 0 and at range 1 from an adjacent zone. Adjacent zones are at range 1 from the wall. (F)
    26. Walls : walls of a certain type affect objects imune to this type in matter of LOS and passage block. (F)

CARDS

    1. Arcane ward : triggers during the declare step. (F)
    2. Enchantment transfusion : there must be LOS from the ET to the new target of the enchantment. (F)
    3. Flank attack : the piercing bonus is only for one attack (not for the whole attack action). (F)
    4. Forcefield : counters a damage barrier. (F)
    5. Force orb / sword : isn't affected by conditions, or incapacitated or restrained. (F)
    6. Gurmash : uses warlord's orders as he would have the same text on his card. (house rule)
    7. Izimbila : has the subtype befor casted. (F)
    8. Joined strength : the damage's source doesn't change. (F)
    9. Mana prism : the loss can be caused directly by the spell or ability, or by an upkeep cost or a mana drain/transfer effect caused by the spell or ability. (F)
    10. ERRATA Quicksand : can't target uncontainable creatures. (F)
    11. Reverse attack : the reversed attack can't be avoided. (F)
    12. Reverse magic : the reversed spell can be countered (but the countering is non-mandatory for a nulify). (F)
    13. Seedlingpod : is sacrificied as part of the casting of the spell. (F)
    14. ERRATA Steep hill : cuts LoS that goes accros his zone diagonally. (house rull)


(and I should add, that we announce our mages before building)

I gotta say this is great work. Thanks for putting the time to get a comprehensive list like this. I think there are a few things to still be added.
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Re: Rules Cleanup (The Mage Wars Community Self-Management Project)
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2018, 08:13:12 AM »
here it is:
(all the "Fs" mean that the rule was aproved on the Forum)

RULES

    1. Attack modifier : if a modifier that applies only to the first attack of an attack action is mooved to another object after the first attack and mooved back, it will apply again. (F)
    2. Befor or after an action phase : events that take place during these periods can occure in any order (c.f. Initiative). (F)
    3. Burn : does flame damages. (F)
    4. Caster : when a card or rule refers to the "caster" it is the object that casted the spell, but "you" is the mage (the caster's controler if it is not a mage). (F)
    5. Conditions : if a creature recieves a condition that should be processed or removed at the end of its action phase during its action phase, it will be processed or removed at the end of its next action phase. (F)
    6. Damages : to recieve or deal 0 damage is not recieve or deale damage. (F)
    7. Duplicates : you can't have more than one copy of an object attached to the same thing. (F)
    8. Enchantments: hidden enchantments have no trait (exceptions : cantrip, decoy). (F)
    9. Formation :
        ◦ both effects are only in the zone. (F)
        ◦ second effect can be used only once per trigger. (F)
    10. Imunity : a creature can't intercept an attack it is imune to. (F)
    11. Imunity : a creature can't melee attack in a zone if all guards are imune to its attack (except if it is elusive). (F)
    12. Incapacitate : if a creature becomes incapacitate after the declare attack step, the attack stops. (house rule)
    13. Initiative : (F)
        ◦ The player with initiative goes first if both players want to act simultaneously.
        ◦ The order of resolution of simultaneous effects from the same cause is choosed by the controler of the cause.
        ◦ Special upkeep: during the upkeep it's the controler of the objects affected who chooses the order of the effects.
        ◦ Problem : if the normal rules don't solve the timing issue, the player with initiative chooses who plays.
            ▪ For example, during upkeep, if an object A, that should be destructed during upkeep, affects an opponent's object B. The player with initiative can choose A's controler (who must destroy A without effect) or B's controler (who must resolve A's effect on B befor A is destroyed).
            ▪ For example, during upkeep, if an effect on object A affects an opponent's object B too. The player with initiative can choose A's controler (who can resolve the effect on A, what forces B to resolve it simultaneously) or B's controler (who can resolve another effect befor A's controler forces him to resolvee the first effect).
    14. Intercept : the interceptor becomes the target. (F)
    15. Intercept : a creature can't intercept an attack that tagets it. (F)
    16. Mage's ability counter : If the object's controler changes, the abilty's doesn't (F):
    Pet receives +1 Melee with his first controler
    Bloodreaper is able to heal his first controler
    Eternal Servant can be reanimated by his first controler
    Holy Avenger gets bonus for the creatures and holy conjurations friendly to his first controler
    Bonded tree is still bonded to his first controler
    Veterans continue as usual
    Runes : Fortification and Precision go with the object // Power, and Shielding are useless // Reforging is bound to the owner
      ERRATA : if the equipment is stolen, the rune stays on it but has no effect for other controlers (house rull)
    17. Numbers : negative numbers don't exist. (F)
    18. Reach : reach doesn't affect flying creatures (except with sweeping: a flying creature with a reach + sweeping attack can attack a flying and a non flying creature in the same attack action). (F)
    19. Spell level: a "3x & 2y" spell is a level 5 spell of school x and a level 5 spell of school y, but a mage trained up to level n in school x will pay the x level simple when building if [x level]<=n. (F)
    20. Spellbind : when changing the bound spell, you can take another card of the same spell but not the same card. (F)
       ERRATA when the spell is cast, it's discarded (house rule)
       ERRATA a new spell can be bound during planning (house rule)
    21. Trample : a trample attack is a contact attac but no melee attack , many situations must be   decided.
        ◦ Elusive creatures can't ignore guards when trample (F)
        ◦ ERRATA Flying creatures loose flying during trample (house rule)
        ◦ +x/-x melee don't affect trample (F)
        ◦ ERRATA a defense that doesn't affect melee doesn't affect trample (house rule)
    22. If 2 effects trigger on the same condition, both resolve. (house rule)
    23. V'Tar orbs : when an orb is turned on by a mage who is part of a team, this mage gaines the "residual" mana or healing. (F)
    24. V'Tar orbs - Faulty Orbs variant : the orbs are turned on by controling the zone too. (F)
    25. Walls : walls are at range 0 and at range 1 from an adjacent zone. Adjacent zones are at range 1 from the wall. (F)
    26. Walls : walls of a certain type affect objects imune to this type in matter of LOS and passage block. (F)

CARDS

    1. Arcane ward : triggers during the declare step. (F)
    2. Enchantment transfusion : there must be LOS from the ET to the new target of the enchantment. (F)
    3. Flank attack : the piercing bonus is only for one attack (not for the whole attack action). (F)
    4. Forcefield : counters a damage barrier. (F)
    5. Force orb / sword : isn't affected by conditions, or incapacitated or restrained. (F)
    6. Gurmash : uses warlord's orders as he would have the same text on his card. (house rule)
    7. Izimbila : has the subtype befor casted. (F)
    8. Joined strength : the damage's source doesn't change. (F)
    9. Mana prism : the loss can be caused directly by the spell or ability, or by an upkeep cost or a mana drain/transfer effect caused by the spell or ability. (F)
    10. ERRATA Quicksand : can't target uncontainable creatures. (F)
    11. Reverse attack : the reversed attack can't be avoided. (F)
    12. Reverse magic : the reversed spell can be countered (but the countering is non-mandatory for a nulify). (F)
    13. Seedlingpod : is sacrificied as part of the casting of the spell. (F)
    14. ERRATA Steep hill : cuts LoS that goes accros his zone diagonally. (house rull)


(and I should add, that we announce our mages before building)

I gotta say this is great work. Thanks for putting the time to get a comprehensive list like this. I think there are a few things to still be added.
Should I quote that post in the original post?

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