November 14, 2018, 03:59:40 PM

Author Topic: Buffs and Counters to Killer Bees  (Read 925 times)

farkas1

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Buffs and Counters to Killer Bees
« on: October 17, 2018, 01:18:48 PM »
Alright.  Lets discuss swarms.  These creatures are arriving in the Academy Druid expansion, set to be released very soon. 

The current ruling allows them to be very deadly and semi hard to kill right away. 

The definition is below if you are unfamiliar with it. 

Swarms

This creature is made up of countless Smaller creatures.  Creatures with the swarm trait cannot guard and cannot be targeted or affected by non-attack spells that do not specifically target swarm creatures. When attacking, Creatures with swarm trait may make additional strikes equal to their remaining health.   Additionally, they are immune to conditions, and have the finite life trait. Non zone attacks do a maximum of 1 damage to them.



I am not going to explain every single thing about swarms but I will highlight above one sentence that makes this card one of the most confusing cards in the game.  It also can be debated on a select few cards that may or may not work with the swarms.  \

So the targeting of them is rather difficult in my opinion and with the inclusion of Arena cards it becomes much more complex and annoying to figure out what can or cannot benefit them.  It is one of the main reasons why I wanted to make this list.

I will introduce the many number of cards that can give them a bonus.
The last half I will list and discuss the counters to the Killer Bees.



 



Buffs for Swarms (making them a bigger nastier Nightmare)
Etherian life Tree
Straywood Scout
Dorseus
Hand of Bim Shalla
Marked for Death
Sacrificial Altar
 Crown of Protection
Bloodwave Warlord Ability (veteran markers)
Symbiotic Orb
Rolling Fog
Azurean Genie
Summoning Circle

Cards that maybe questionable (current ruling is a little vague and these could or could not work depending on how you translate objects and spells)


Fortified Position
Standard Bearer
Circle of Protection (not healing)
Sacred Ground
Vtar Sentry

Force Wave (does not work because it is always a spell even after it is cast) 
Enchantment Transfusion (off another creature onto a swarm creature)  I think this move should be illegal



Enchantment transfusion is a card notorious for many sneaky and maybe rule breaking affects in the game.  Similarly it was brought to my attention that this card may work with the current ruling of swarms.  Which means all those enchantments that could not target swarms specifically may in fact can after they are cast and transfused from one object to the new one.  The whole ruling of objects and spell debate that gives them leverage since the enchantments are now objects they now can target swarms.  Giving us super swarms!   I am not on board with this ruling and find that it should not legal.  I know others feel the same way.  So in tournaments I will propose that it is illegal to use Enchantment transfusion in any way shape or form on Swarm creatures.  not sure about shift enchantment if it has the same wording but I am against it too if it works the same way. 

Thoughts

Etherian Life Tree is number one combo with Swarms and especially the Killer Bees.   giving more life and boosting number of attacks by 2.  Straywood Scout is another useful way to get the Bees to have one extra die of attack for first attack! 

Dorseus is also crucial in that it can bypass finte life trait!  Making them tougher to kill! 


There are a number of ways of adding attack dice using non spell abilities from an assortment of cards.  You can even give Swarms tiny insect armor apparently which is pretty funny.  Nature mages have an easier spellbook point advantage in swarm builds as well as just splashing swarms in builds for some sort of sick game of supremacy!   I could see out of School builds using Killer Bees tho. 


List of best to worst mages using Swarms down below.


Druid and Beastmasters
Paladin, Priest, Priestess
Necromancer, Warlocks
Wizard, Warlords
Siren, Forcemaster

Negatives (how to effectively kill Swarms/Killer BeeS)
Gravikor
Defenses, zone attacks, triple strike, double strike, direct damage
Redirect
Veterans belt with armor
Eye for an Eye

Zone attacks
Electrify, Sandstorm, Voltaric Discharge, Ring of Fire, Volley of Flame, Hail of Stones, Blinding Flash, Telekintic Burst, Tsunami (gravikor), 
Oscuda, Elemental Golem , Akiros Hammer, Goblin Bomber, Sardonyx

Multi Attacks (triple or double strike spells
Badger Frenzy,  Spray of Barbs, Ludwig Boltstorm, Gravikor or Eagle Wings (w/  Darkfenne Hydra, kumanjaran Leopard, Gaurding Cerberus, Goran Werewolf, Sir Corazon, Galvitar, Deptonne Berserker, ect,)

Direct Damage
Magma Golem, Ice Spikes, Whirlpool and Gravikor, Helm of Justice, Disciple of Radiance, Idol of Pestilence, Malacoda, Poison Gas Cloud, Plague (on another non swarm creature), consecrated ground,

Defenses against Killer Bees
Any defense chance, force sword, Cobra reflex, reflex boots, ect.  Spiked Buckler, Veteran Belt with Armor, Suppression Cloak, Dodge, Force Field, Block, Repulse, Mass Cowardice, Alluring Orchid, Altar of Infernia,

There seems like a lot more things to counter swarms then there is to help them out. Donít let that fool you tho.  Aggressive Swarm builds not considering current meta can and will get wreaked if none of these above counters are in your builds.  Zone attacks are best way to deal with them however just like most zone attacks mana to overall effectiveness could set your plan back and it may backfire if the attack is unsuccessful.  There are some quick easy counters that maybe in your book already.  Such as Gravikor, or alluring Orchid, eye for an eye, redirect, or maybe even mass cowardice.  These spells are already benefiting your build in other ways so an extra one maybe important to have to stop the bees from even hitting or ground the flying threats and get to work using non flying creatures.  Other spells or creatures to consider more are ones that have the double or triple strike attacks.  Which can quickly decimate any swarm. 
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 07:35:02 AM by farkas1 »
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Arkdeniz

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Re: Buffs and Counters to Killer Bees
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2018, 03:12:27 PM »
I point out the text on Enchantment Transfusion states that enchantments can only be moved to a legal target (so you canít shift Plagued onto Malacoda or Eagle Wings on a Skeletal Knight). Since Swarms are not a legal target for any spell that does not specificly target Swarms, this should prevent that particular exploit.
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farkas1

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Re: Buffs and Counters to Killer Bees
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2018, 03:26:32 PM »
Cool problem solved.  If someone wants to argue for it please give your reason.  Iím totally fine with enchantment transfusion not working on swarms.   :)

« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 05:05:23 PM by farkas1 »
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Puddnhead

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Re: Buffs and Counters to Killer Bees
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2018, 04:44:53 PM »
I point out the text on Enchantment Transfusion states that enchantments can only be moved to a legal target (so you canít shift Plagued onto Malacoda or Eagle Wings on a Skeletal Knight). Since Swarms are not a legal target for any spell that does not specificly target Swarms, this should prevent that particular exploit.

I'm fairly certain that RAW this is incorrect.  The Swarm trait prevents SPELLS from targeting Swarms.  Once the Enchantment has been successfully cast it becomes an OBJECT.  The Swarm trait does NOT prevent OBJECTS from targeting Swarms.  I am very happy to be wrong on this one, but it seems to be the correct way things interact.  For instance, if Objects are also Spells that would prevent everything from targeting swarms...including Creatures! The only way to deal with Swarms would then be with your Mage's personal attack (Mages are never spells) or with Attack Spells.  This seems to be a clearly erroneous interpretation of the rules.  Objects do not equal Spells is the only way I see the rules actually working here.
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Arkdeniz

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Re: Buffs and Counters to Killer Bees
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2018, 05:16:29 PM »
Puddnhead,

The targeting rule re ET has been confirmed in the Rules Supplement:

"The enchantments must be moved to a legal target creature (a target you could cast the enchantments on as if you were casting each enchantment again on the new target)."
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Puddnhead

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Re: Buffs and Counters to Killer Bees
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2018, 08:36:07 PM »
Puddnhead,

The targeting rule re ET has been confirmed in the Rules Supplement:

"The enchantments must be moved to a legal target creature (a target you could cast the enchantments on as if you were casting each enchantment again on the new target)."

I am so relieved!
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farkas1

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Re: Buffs and Counters to Killer Bees
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2018, 09:17:00 PM »
Yeahhhhh...dispute settled!!! Thank you puddnhead for sharing ur thoughts. Thank you Arkendeniz for confirming that it does not work on the swarms.  We can all sleep at night and not worry about super killer bees coming at us.   ;D
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 10:35:45 PM by farkas1 »
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Arkdeniz

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Re: Buffs and Counters to Killer Bees
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2018, 11:02:19 PM »
It seems to me that the basic rule is that the powers of cards on the board can affect a swarm*, but a card played from the hand (except for attack spells) will not.

So incantations and enchantments (other than zone enchantments) will have no affect, but creatures, conjurations and attacks will work (subject to normal rules around traits and subtypes).

If this is right, you can add V'tar Force Sentry to the lists of cards that could hamper and aid Swarms (depending on who controls the Sentry).
 

*with the exception of some specifically forbidden spells, such as ET.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 11:04:03 PM by Arkdeniz »
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keejchen

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Re: Buffs and Counters to Killer Bees
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2018, 06:03:59 AM »
Good write-up Farkas.

Just one note: Crown of Protection does not work on swarms, the ability on the crown is a non-attack spell requiring a target.

I still hope there will be an official statement/update/clarification to the swarm trait, I foresee many frustrating debates coming up when the cards actually start getting used.
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Coshade

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Re: Buffs and Counters to Killer Bees
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2018, 11:02:28 AM »
Nice thread! I think this kind of FAQ thread is needed for swarms
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Coshade

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Re: Buffs and Counters to Killer Bees
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2018, 11:15:45 AM »
Also I think Consecrated Ground is a decent counter as well!
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farkas1

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Re: Buffs and Counters to Killer Bees
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2018, 12:01:19 PM »
Thanks all.   I added the ones Mentioned.  Please let me know if there is any more cards I missed. 
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Re: Buffs and Counters to Killer Bees
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2018, 12:03:37 PM »
So, would a Reverse Attack spell require the swarm to kill itself using the extra attacks based on its health with each attack dealing one damage off the swarm's health?

Looks like Nope. I just checked the wording in the top message and it says "may" for the additional attacks.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 12:05:47 PM by wtcannonjr »
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farkas1

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Re: Buffs and Counters to Killer Bees
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2018, 08:54:14 AM »
Yea reverse attack only prevents first attack and it would only do one damage even if first attack was buffed up. The key is is would prevent the buffed up first attack if any melee dice were adding using marked for death, bim.  Etherian life tree would just add more attacks. 

The only Card that really does the full damage for first strike would be eye for an eye I believe. 
« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 09:53:21 AM by farkas1 »
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Re: Buffs and Counters to Killer Bees
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2018, 06:54:22 AM »
You might want to add Doublestrike and Triplestrike to the Negative column as they remain effective in dealing more than one damage per Attack Action.
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