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Author Topic: Blue Gremlin and Teleport  (Read 19544 times)

The Dude

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Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2013, 07:01:42 AM »
Teleporting in general does release a creature from a conjuration such as tanglevine, however, Blue Gremlin specifically states that when he teleports when he moves. This is still considered a move action, which the restrained trait specifically says you can not do.

As well, a crippled Gremlin may not take a move action. All his ability means is that if he does take a move action that turn, each move counts as him teleporting into that zone. It is still a move action, which, if the creature is restrained, it cannot do.

As well, this is what hinder states:

Hinder
If a creature begins its Action Phase in a zone with any
enemy creatures, or enters a zone occupied by an enemy
creature, it is hindered. A hindered creature may only move
1 zone during its Action Phase (even if it has the Fast trait).
Incapacitated, Restrained, or Pest creatures cannot hinder
movement.

This means that the Gremlin is still hindered by the enemy, as it's "teleport" ability is specifically a move action.

I hope this helps you!
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The Dude

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Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2013, 07:02:49 AM »
For reference:

When this creature is activated, you may pay 1 mana. If you do, Gremlin gains the Fast trait until the end of round, and each move action he takes this round is a Teleport to the next zone.
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Tacullu64

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Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2013, 09:11:35 AM »
Resurrecting this thread since it is a topic of interest again.

My personal belief is the gremlin isn't hindered, but both sides have articulated their cases persuasively.

Can we get a clear unambiguous official response to the question.

Can the Blue Gremlin be hindered if he pays 1 mana for his special ability when he activates?

Thanks in advance.

ringkichard

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Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2013, 10:53:27 AM »
For reference, here are links to the recent Blue Gremlin card discussion and the Spellbook discussion that contains more arguments.

To me, a lot seems to hinge on the original comments by Arcanus about the FAQ.

My opinion is that the Rules as Intended in the FAQ are unclear. The Rules as Written on March 5th mean that the Gremlin is hindered and may not take move actions. The Rules as Written on March 2nd mean that the Gremlin may teleport even though hindered.

As a matter of design, I support Gremlin being allowed to teleport even though hindered, because I think cards should do what most players will assume they can. I think a FAQ entry to clarify this would be helpful.
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Tacullu64

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Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2013, 11:59:03 AM »
My sense is that most people understand why blue gremlins would be allowed to teleport unhindered, but the rules are ambiguous, and most importantly people just want to play it correctly.

DaveW

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Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2013, 07:09:03 PM »
OK, so will someone with real rules authority adjudicate?

The issue seems to be whether the teleport is legal since the tanglevine prevents (normal, at least) movement, and the because teleport is described as a "move action."

My belief is that it should be able to teleport since:
1) The teleport "condition" is gained after the tanglevine's application,
2) The vine doesn't have any attribute that disallows the expenditure of the mana, and
3) There seems to be precedent in flying on the Vampiress... she activates flying and no longer is hindered (even though at the very moment that she activates the flying condition, she actually is on the ground and "should be" hindered).

Still, everyone would like an official answer, I guess.
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Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2013, 11:20:12 PM »
I'm pretty sure I do have a real rules authority mate. As an an ambassador, judge, and writer of Mage Wars, it is kind of my job to know the rules. c:

The answer I have provided is the correct one. Since the Gremlin is using a move action to teleport, it is still considered a move action. As such, any effect that would disallow the move action or limit it is still in effect. Again, I post, for reference, the ability of the card in question:

When this creature is activated, you may pay 1 mana. If you do, Gremlin gains the Fast trait until the end of round, and each move action he takes this round is a Teleport to the next zone.
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Shad0w

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Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2013, 12:13:33 AM »
I'm pretty sure I do have a real rules authority mate. As an an ambassador, judge, and writer of Mage Wars, it is kind of my job to know the rules. c:

The answer I have provided is the correct one. Since the Gremlin is using a move action to teleport, it is still considered a move action. As such, any effect that would disallow the move action or limit it is still in effect. Again, I post, for reference, the ability of the card in question:

When this creature is activated, you may pay 1 mana. If you do, Gremlin gains the Fast trait until the end of round, and each move action he takes this round is a Teleport to the next zone.


"Since the Gremlin is using a move action to teleport, it is still considered a move action."
Correct
As such, any effect that would disallow the move action or limit it is still in effect.
Correct
All his ability means is that if he does take a move action that turn, each move counts as him teleporting into that zone. It is still a move action, which, if the creature is restrained, it cannot do.
Correct
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Shad0w

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Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2013, 01:05:08 AM »
I have rules that BGs teleport is used as a move action but it is as if telepot had been cast on it allowing to bypass hindering creatures. When Bryan and I talked way back about this he had no issue with that.



Do you want this in the FAQ?
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baronzaltor

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Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2013, 03:26:12 AM »
I have rules that BGs teleport is used as a move action but it is as if telepot had been cast on it allowing to bypass hindering creatures. When Bryan and I talked way back about this he had no issue with that.



Do you want this in the FAQ?

FAQ'ing the intended/finalized version would probably be a good idea.

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Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2013, 08:59:12 AM »
I'm not sure I understand how that would affect the situation:

Hindering Movement:

"Enemy creatures can prevent your creature from moving into a second zone. If your creature begins its Action Phase in a zone with any enemy creatures it is hindered and may only take one move action during its Action Phase (even if it has the Fast trait). If it moves into a zone occupied by an enemy creature, it is hindered, and must stop and cannot take any more move actions this Action Phase."

Teleporting:

"The teleported creature does not move through any zones in between, and bypasses all walls, creatures, and objects along its route."

Hindering from the FAQ:

"Movement by teleporting ignores the Hindering restriction. If a creature teleports before it takes any move actions, it can become un-hindered if it teleports into a zone without any enemy objects that can hinder it."


1. Since the Blue Goblin is teleporting only one zone at a time there are no 'zones in between' for him to avoid and the only thing that he would be bypassing is the walls which are literally in between zones.
2. It has already been stated that he is not teleporting before he takes any move actions, but in fact the teleporting is a move action for him.
3. The status of hindering occurs before any move actions are taken merely by his being in or entering a zone which contains creatures that can hinder him.

Conclusion: The Blue Goblin is affected by hinderance rules exactly as though he were taking normal move actions.

Am I missing some other source that references these rules?

Tacullu64

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Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2013, 09:30:59 AM »
You seem to be missing the intent of the way blue gremlin was meant work in favor of ambiguous rules.

The single statement of "Movement by teleporting ignores the hindering restriction." indicates the intent of how special abilities such as BG's are suppose to work. Rules passages such as the ones you listed make BG's special ability confusing. It is easy to see how you came to your conclusion, you are not alone.

Most people just want to play correctly. It's not easy writing rules and sometimes multiple interpretation arise, which can lead to parsing the rules.

Fortunately it sounds like they are going to add this to the FAQ to avoid (understandable) confusion in the future.

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Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2013, 10:27:21 AM »
Yes, I see what you are saying and my only problem with that interpretation is the previous claim that a Blue Goblin cannot escape tanglevines and such because he has to be able to declare a move action before he can teleport. And since the hinderance rules would prevent him from declaring his second move action if his first were to cause him to move into a zone containing creatures that could hinder him. I don't see how both of these rulings can be true as currently stated.

I agree with the intent, I just want to make sure it is stated unambiguously.

ringkichard

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Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2013, 11:08:39 AM »
Here's a similar one:
Does the promo Stumble work on Blue Gremlin?
I think it should, because it ties into the Tanglevine ruling, but the language of Stumble is very similar to the language of Hindered.

Quote from: Stumble
Enchantment. Non-Flying Creature.
You may reveal Stumble when this creature is activated. It stumbles and may not take a move action during its action phase. Then, destroy Stumble. Has no effect on creatures with the Unmovable trait.

Quote from: Hindered
If your creature begins its Action Phase in a zone with any enemy creatures it is hindered and may only take one move action during its Action Phase (even if it has the Fast trait). If it moves into a zone occupied by an enemy creature, it is hindered, and must stop and cannot take any more move actions this Action Phase.

Again, from a design perspective, Blue Gremlin is in a weird place because knowing more about the rules changes what you think it can do, and then knowing about the FAQ changes it back again, maybe. This isn't ideal.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2013, 11:35:56 AM by ringkichard »
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Tacullu64

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Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2013, 11:59:33 AM »
I would say that stumble works on Blue Gremlin. To me the gremlin's teleport ability wouldn't override Stumble like it does hindering.

In the first instance you have a rules conflict between the rules governing teleport and the rules governing hindering. The question was which one would take precedence. I don't see that conflict here.

This is of course just my interpretation.