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Author Topic: One-core Mana Drain?  (Read 2922 times)

Taeru

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One-core Mana Drain?
« on: December 20, 2012, 10:20:20 AM »
I like the idea I have seen of a mana denial-based Wizard book, but unfortunately currently only have access to a single core set - and my opponent is using two Nullifies, so only three remain. Given this restriction, how can I build something along those lines?

Thank you in advance for the help.

Hedge

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Re: One-core Mana Drain?
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2012, 02:49:38 PM »
buy another core set or find a singles dealer.



Hedge

Taeru

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Re: One-core Mana Drain?
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2012, 04:30:12 PM »
That... is not a very helpful response, honestly.  From what I could tell before purchasing it, and from even what I've played, it seems this is a very skill-intensive game as opposed to the more common pay-to-win-type models.  Am I wrong?

charlesatan

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Re: One-core Mana Drain?
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2012, 06:00:07 PM »
The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Mage Wars is skill-based. But it also needs an investment in cards depending on the type of deck you're planning to build. That's why they're released the Core Spell Tome packs (and, ummm, expansions), so you can expand it. I think it's (mostly) feasible to create a competent deck out of the core set, but I recommend 1 core set per player.

Having said that, my play style only uses two Nullifies, so depending on the build, I wouldn't say that having access to only 2 Nullifies is a deal-breaker.

Taeru

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Re: One-core Mana Drain?
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2012, 06:40:31 PM »
I have three Nullifies to work with, for the record, either there are five in core or he went down to one.
I'm not looking for an optimal decklist, of course that won't be possible, but when rather than advice about what I should do I get "buy more cards", that reminds me of Magic and I honestly don't really want to think about Magic's business model at this time.  As is, I'd like to build some sort of (ideally 1-creature (Huginn)) mana denial/control deck out of what I can, and any advice regarding such is appreciated.

ABGames

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Re: One-core Mana Drain?
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2012, 10:07:10 AM »
If it is just you and a friend playing, proxy what you don't have.

If you want to play in tournaments, buy core tombs to get
what you need.

The resources are there, if you don't want to spend more
money then build with what you have or proxy it.

charlesatan

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Re: One-core Mana Drain?
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2012, 10:23:54 AM »
Quote from: "Taeru" post=5578
I have three Nullifies to work with, for the record, either there are five in core or he went down to one.
I'm not looking for an optimal decklist, of course that won't be possible, but when rather than advice about what I should do I get "buy more cards", that reminds me of Magic and I honestly don't really want to think about Magic's business model at this time.  As is, I'd like to build some sort of (ideally 1-creature (Huginn)) mana denial/control deck out of what I can, and any advice regarding such is appreciated.


Regarding the response, I suspect it's because you started with a leading question. You started it with a misleading question (not having enough Nullifies) and a partially ambiguous title. And since you're sharing cards, it's hard to know which cards you have that are available/not available.

If it's advice you want, my general commentary is to avoid such a strategy altogether. It's a rather advance concept and if you're coming from a Magic: The Gathering paradigm when it comes to mana denial, you need to readjust how you envision your strategy.

Mana denial in this game is the equivalent of casting Armageddon (nullifying both of your mana) in Magic: The Gathering, rather than a slow ramp-up in the mana supply chain like Stone Rain. The only card that's close to the latter is Mana Siphon, and that's a Legendary Card, in addition to putting you in a mana deficit (it takes a few turns before you start "earning" from the spell). If you want to deprive your opponent of mana, the most efficient method is Drain Power, but it's an expensive proposition (assuming you're in range), and on average, breaks even (costs you 16 mana, opponent loses 8 mana, you regain 8 mana). Also because of the way of the turn structure, this method of mana denial (same goes for creatures) is that it's only effective every other turn, when you go first.

I'd be more concerned with developing a winning strategy (however you deem that best), and employ mana denial to retain that advantage, as opposed to building a deck with mana denial as an end in itself. It doesn't work, and you'll probably end up handicapping yourself.

Having said that, there is value in gaining a "Mana Advantage" (i.e. Arcane Ring + Mana Crystals), or using cards that penalize the opponent unless they spend mana.

Taeru

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Re: One-core Mana Drain?
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2012, 10:40:07 AM »
Thank you for the advice.
My intent was more of the "taxing" type: as I can play cards like the Obelisk/Orb and then simply play no (or one) creature(s), the effects aren't really symmetrical, and Suppression Cloak is also asymmetrical, yes? Further, there exist Essence Drain, etc.
The reason for the Nullify comment was that I recall seeing a sample decklist for a similar idea on this forum, playing six copies.  This signified to me that it was probably somehow rather important and that it might be worth stating.
The Magic decks I've played that did make use of mana denial were of the Death and Taxes, Prison (Winter Orb), or Stasis types, so I do think I am thinking more along the lines of what seems to exist in this game than just mono-red land destruction (which I have never actually played in Magic, actually.)  Correct me if I am wrong, and either way, thanks for the advice.

charlesatan

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Re: One-core Mana Drain?
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2012, 08:24:57 AM »
Suppression Cloak might be a nice support in general (although to be honest, there might be better solutions, such as better armor, or not getting hit in the first place), but the rest I find to be better suited as a "sideboard" (and I think every deck should devote a few points to sideboard spells) rather than the core of a a deck.

The problem with Suppression Orb and Mordok's Obelisk is that it presumes your opponent will be using a lot of creatures. Against a Beastmaster summoning lots of low-level creatures, it's fantastic. But against a deck with a few creatures or even a solo mage (or a mirror match), it's not as effective. Of the two, Suppression Orb is probably the least effective, because it's also not as useful against creatures with Ranged Attacks. And sometimes, battle becomes confined to one or two squares, so the mana-for-movement isn't so much of an issue.

And again, there is also the issue of recouping your investment in mana. These conjurations costs 8 mana, so if your opponent is only using one or two creatures, it'll take eight (or four) rounds before you recoup your investment.

Essence Drain is one of those Enchantments that needs to be carefully used. I mean it's terrific if you're fighting against a stupid player, but there's also a point where the smart move is for the opponent to simply not pay the upkeep cost and let it die. (Again, it depends on the target; Level 1 creature? I'll let it die. My level 5 creature? Sure, I'd pay it, although again, it takes three turns before you recoup your investment, and it doesn't solve the problem that the creature is still there, ready to attack you.)

In general, I don't like these cards because 1) it gives the power of choice to the opponent (i.e. they can choose not to pay it), and 2) it doesn't really solve the existing dilemma that your opponent has creatures/permanents that are a threat to you. Or in the worst-case scenario, you've built all this setup, while the enemy Mage themselves moves right next to you and start pounding you (Beastmasters and Warlocks deal more damage than you and have more life from the get-go).

Personally, 6 Nullifies are overkill for me. I usually pack two, although I can envision some people using 3-4 if they want to be particularly protective. I mean the smart move by the opponent would be to cast Decoy, Seeking Dispel, or simply summon creatures and conjurations to attack the opponent instead of casting spells on them. In general, I usually pack 2 cards of each that I find useful, while 4 of each card (or even 6) are the exception to the norm. (Cards like Dispel or Dissolve are probably a good exception--I pack 3.)

If you're looking for some kind of "control" deck, I'd probably recommend inflicting various status conditions on the opponent. Lightning effects tend to have a good chance of stunning, while the Basilisk can Cripple them, and the Gorgon Archer can Weaken them.

Taeru

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Re: One-core Mana Drain?
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2012, 12:44:58 PM »
Makes sense - so far, I've only played against creature-heavy decks (the issue with only having one opponent, I suppose), but I can certainly see my deck being much worse against a less creature-focused deck.  I am definitely looking for some sort of control deck, though not entirely sure how to build it - what I've seen is that much of the time if I don't explicitly make time in the first few turns to cast creatures I end up feeling too pressured to actually do so. W.r.t. Essence Drain, as long as it only goes on creatures that cost 8+ I'll get a mana advantage regardless (and it was mainly going on 21-cost creatures).  Speaking of which, I need a better answer to that Lightning Angel.
Beyond this, is there any answer to Dispel other than Jinx? Losing Circle of Lightning basically lost me my last game, for instance.