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Author Topic: Alright... weird enchantment question.  (Read 23356 times)

baronzaltor

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Alright... weird enchantment question.
« on: March 16, 2013, 01:10:28 AM »
This came up in conversation about unorthodox ways to mess with an opponent and wasnt sure how it plays out properly.

Can I defend myself against a debuff enchantment, or deny an opponent a beneficial enchantment by placing a copy face down with no intention of revealing it?

According to the rules: "There is no limit to the number of different enchantments that can be on an object, but each object or zone cannot have more than one enchantment with the same name attached to it at one time.  This includes both hidden and revealed enchantments. It is possible both players may attach an identical enchantment to the same target.  if an identical enchantment is revealed on the same target, it is immediately destroyed."

So because it applies to both face down and face up enchantments universally, if i put a Poison Blood under myself then the opponent reveals a Poison Blood, his would be destroyed even with mine unrevealed? (obviously Id have to inform the opponent)

If it works, seems like a fun way to hamper certain enchantments, as well as block certain buffs.  (slide bear strength under a beast masters pet, sneak a forcefield under an opposing forcemaster in a mirror match so that its destroyed upon reveal, then shift it back to yourself, for example)

Drealin

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Re: Alright... weird enchantment question.
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2013, 01:26:27 AM »
As you quoted, if an identical enchantment is revealed on the same target.  So, yes as soon as one of them is revealed then both would be destroyed.
As an added bonus to your trick, the following passage would seem to indicate that your opponent would pay the reveal cost first, before there is a conflict.
Quote
When you reveal your enchantment, first you pay the reveal
cost, before resolving the effect of the enchantment. If the
cost is not paid, the enchantment is destroyed before it
can resolve and have any effect. If the cost is paid, flip the
enchantment over and reveal it to your opponent, then place
it partially under the object it is attached to.

It would also, actually, be illegal for you not to show your opponent the identical enchantment, and destroy them both.

baronzaltor

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Re: Alright... weird enchantment question.
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2013, 01:44:09 AM »
Why would both be destroyed?

"if an identical enchantment is revealed, it is immediately destroyed"  so the one is revealed and destroyed because it was the one that is both identical and revealed.

Sounds to me like the original face down one would stay, though the opponent would now know what it is.

Or am I focusing too much on the game mechanic "revealed" and not enough on the literal word "revealed" in that case?

DarthDadaD20

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Re: Alright... weird enchantment question.
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2013, 04:25:45 AM »
Quote from: "baronzaltor" post=9178
Why would both be destroyed?

"if an identical enchantment is revealed, it is immediately destroyed"  so the one is revealed and destroyed because it was the one that is both identical and revealed.

Sounds to me like the original face down one would stay, though the opponent would now know what it is.

Or am I focusing too much on the game mechanic "revealed" and not enough on the literal word "revealed" in that case?

You are right baronzaltor. They are not both destroyed, only the new one is. If you play poison blood on your self face down, and then the opponent plays poison blood on you and reveals it. nothing happens. If you were to reveal your face down poison blood after that, Your copy of poison blood would be destroyed. So if you have a enchantment with the same name face down as one that is face up, that is fine. You do not have to let the opponent know. If you reveal it, then the newest one is destroyed, not both.
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Drealin

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Re: Alright... weird enchantment question.
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2013, 01:32:44 AM »
You're right, it doesn't say they are both destroyed, only the one that is revealed.

If an identical enchantment is revealed, it is immediately destroyed.
You put a Poison Blood on yourself, and keep it facedown.
Then your opponent puts one on you and reveals it.
If you were to then reveal your Poison Blood, yours would be the one that gets destroyed, because its the identical enchantment being revealed.

However, "each object or zone cannot
have more than one enchantment with the same name
attached to it at one time. This includes both hidden and
revealed enchantments."
Which would seem to indicate that the second one should technically be destroyed as soon as it is attached, but can't happen as you don't know what the other person played.

Which means that short of a third party always checking what enchantments are being played, what DarthDadaD20 said is the only way to make the rule work in reality.
This of course would also mean that your tactic won't work.  Even though technically it should, as that is how it would work if you were to play both of them yourself.

DarthDadaD20

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Re: Alright... weird enchantment question.
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2013, 08:38:41 AM »
The reason that it works that way is because enchantments take no effect until the are revealed. It does not matter what enchantment you have face down,it is just not in play until it is revealed.(Rhino hide face down is not a +2 to your armor, its not even considered a rhino hide,it is considered a face down enchantment, that is, until it is face up and in play.)  It would be cool if it worked that way, and would add a different strategy to enchantments. :)
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
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takes the form of a mountain as well as a flower,
it cannot be outrun by the greatest of power.
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
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DarthDadaD20

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Re: Alright... weird enchantment question.
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2013, 08:44:19 AM »
Quote from: "Drealin" post=9212
as that is how it would work if you were to play both of them yourself.

I think it would still be just the newest enchantment that would be destroyed. [strike]On a side note, Im thinking this is the reason (Or one there of) that the game was made to have Mandatory enchantments. That way you could play two or four blocks or nullifys on yourself if you chosen to do so....but once that event triggers, you have no choice in them all going off at once.[/strike]
Edit What I said here really makes no sense, I was thinking out loud...)
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
It has been around since the dawn of time,
it follows your loved ones as well as mine,
takes the form of a mountain as well as a flower,
it cannot be outrun by the greatest of power.
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
Within Shad0w.

Tacullu64

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Re: Alright... weird enchantment question.
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2013, 09:08:58 AM »
Quote from: "DarthDadaD20" post=9220
Quote from: "Drealin" post=9212
as that is how it would work if you were to play both of them yourself.

I think it would still be just the newest enchantment that would be destroyed. On a side note, Im thinking this is the reason (Or one there of) that the game was made to have Mandatory enchantments. That way you could play two or four blocks or nullifys on yourself if you chosen to do so....but once that event triggers, you have no choice in them all going off at once.


I cannot tell if you guys are speaking hypothetically here or not, but in any case you can't cast 2 enchantments with the same name on yourself even if they are face down.

I agree with the way you answered the topic's question, although that is just my opinion.

Shad0w

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Re: Alright... weird enchantment question.
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2013, 10:04:12 AM »
By the rules it cant be done but speaking from a tourney level you only have 2 ways to check this.

First call a judge over to see if the play is legal over not.
Second would be to wait until the card is revealed ( this would include things like seeking dispel).


In the second case the way I would rule it is the player casting the seeking dispel get the mana refunded, puts the seeking dispel back in the book, and gets to plan a different card(based off the fact the only reason they planed a seeking dispel was from an illegal play). The player who made the illegal play gets no mana refund, the illegal enchant stays in the discard, and the do not get to replan.

I hope that helps.
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DarthDadaD20

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Re: Alright... weird enchantment question.
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2013, 10:23:30 AM »
we are speaking hypothetically on casting the same enchantment on yourself, since legal targeting applies, it was answered in another thread that you couldn't cast a spell on yourself illegally to use as a bluff. I just used it as an example to explain the rules,(Since a opponent cannot see whats hidden I dont know what other example to use.) I super glad you said something though, Tacullu64 so there is no confusion to anyone who reads this and isnt directly involved in the conversation at this time! :)
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
It has been around since the dawn of time,
it follows your loved ones as well as mine,
takes the form of a mountain as well as a flower,
it cannot be outrun by the greatest of power.
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
Within Shad0w.

Tacullu64

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Re: Alright... weird enchantment question.
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2013, 10:34:08 AM »
No problem, I'm glad you took it the way you did. It's all about the community and keeping things clear in as polite and friendly a manner as possible. Got cover for each other when things could get misunderstood.

baronzaltor

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Re: Alright... weird enchantment question.
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2013, 06:01:00 PM »
Quote from: "DarthDadaD20" post=9219
The reason that it works that way is because enchantments take no effect until the are revealed. It does not matter what enchantment you have face down,it is just not in play until it is revealed.(Rhino hide face down is not a +2 to your armor, its not even considered a rhino hide,it is considered a face down enchantment, that is, until it is face up and in play.)  It would be cool if it worked that way, and would add a different strategy to enchantments. :)


I dont think this is true though, because Im not allowed to cast 4 Rhino Hides on a target and just reveal a new one each time one is destroyed.  The quoted rule says it applies to face up and face down enchantments.
They still count as identical enchantments even if facedown, which is were the original idea started from.  They do count as at least their name while attached according to the quote.

DarthDadaD20

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Re: Alright... weird enchantment question.
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2013, 07:25:55 PM »
It is not. You have to target a leagal target. I have had a hard time finding a way to explain this. you could target a opponents creature with rhino hide even if they had a rhino hide face down since it is not in play, that is what I was trying to say.good point on your part for sure, and thank you. like how if I put a face down bear strength on your creature and then you played a face up bear strength. on the same creature, no you cant have two of the same enchantments on one creature, but the face down bear strength would stay until it was revealed.  is that better you think.? I'm sorry I answered. the question and then made it confusing for everyone....or am I wrong? would I have to say..."oh you revealed. bear strength? well that's my face down enchantment on your creature,let me go ahead and destroy that now that you have one revealed???? I think I am right.
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
It has been around since the dawn of time,
it follows your loved ones as well as mine,
takes the form of a mountain as well as a flower,
it cannot be outrun by the greatest of power.
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
Within Shad0w.

Doma0997

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Re: Alright... weird enchantment question.
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2013, 07:55:42 PM »
I think it's an interesting game state question that does need to be clarified in the faq, or at least in tournament rules. Honestly, it would not come into play very often unless someone is being shady, as we usually only play negative enchantments on our opponents creatures and positive on our own, but I can see someone stacking a bunch of bear strengths on one creature just to reveal them when one is destroyed could be an issue. Granted by the time that happened, someones noticed and you probably just got disqualified...

Like what if I enchant your creature with eagle wings so tarok has an easier time against it, and you already have eagle wings, or play a face down eagle wings before mine is revealed?

In competitive play, neither person would want to confirm that both are the same, because that would be giving away information that shouldn't be revealed to begin with.

Though you can't just say that an identical enchantment can only be revealed if the first is destroyed, because then you have a bear strength stacking situation. I doubt any competitive players would go by the honor system either. Do we just say that if an enchantment is destroyed and the player attempts to reveal an identical enchantment right after it just goes to the discard pile? That's a bit of game state memory, especially if the opponent waits as long as possible before revealing. Looking forward to this one!

baronzaltor

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Re: Alright... weird enchantment question.
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2013, 08:19:30 PM »
Quote from: "DarthDadaD20" post=9262
would I have to say..."oh you revealed. bear strength? well that's my face down enchantment on your creature,let me go ahead and destroy that now that you have one revealed????


Thats how I interpterated it, except the revealed one is destroyed not the hidden one.  

to re quote: "There is no limit to the number of different enchantments that can be on an object, but each object or zone cannot have more than one enchantment with the same name attached to it at one time. This includes both hidden and revealed enchantments. It is possible both players may attach an identical enchantment to the same target. if an identical enchantment is revealed on the same target, it is immediately destroyed."

My reading and interpretation was:
To use the Poison Blood example-

I play Poison Blood facedown on myself, obviously with no intent to reveal it...but because I suspect the opponent will try to use it on me.

Now, Poison Blood is not a legal target for me to play on myself again because of the quoted rule.  no copies are allowed, face up or down.  But, because the rule says "its possible both players may attach identical enchantments to the same target"  So my opponent could still play a Poison Blood face down on me (since the opponent doesnt know better)

Once the opponent reveals HIS Poison Blood, it is tagged as identical to the facedown one I have.  Which then obligates me to inform you that the Poison Blood you flipped must be destroyed because I already have a copy of that spell attached to me.   Because the rule also states:  "if an identical enchantment is revealed on the same target, it is immediately destroyed".   The revealed one is destroyed. So because my opponents was the one revealed, and it is identical to the unrevealed one it must be destroyed an my unrevealed one stays there though its identity is no longer a mystery.

Or, in a reverse scenario of using it to deny a beneficial enchantment:
We are both Force Masters.
I play my Forcefield Face-Down  on you.  

You can still attach Forcefield to yourself (and do so, for this example)  and I couldnt play another on you.

When you reveal Forcefield, I inform you that you already have that enchantment on you and then you must destroy it.   (and show the card or call a judge I assume to confirm)

Then I use Shift Enchantment to get my Forcefield back.

That is how we thought the rule was stated, making Enchantments interesting ways to counter themselves.  But we were never 100% certain if that is how it was meant to work.