Arcane Wonders Forum

Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: nitrodavid on August 02, 2013, 11:18:32 pm

Title: Game plan and "cheat sheets"
Post by: nitrodavid on August 02, 2013, 11:18:32 pm
I cant find any mention of this topic.

i have my basic game plan of my first 10 moves in mage wars, and of course i can never play my first 10 moves without deviating to accommodating for the other mage. this topic is not about "you will never get to play 10 turns without change yada yada"

i have my first 10 moves printed onto a sheet of paper (i call this my cheat sheet), am i allowed to bring this sheet of paper with me while i play at comp lvl mage wars.
this can be generalised to "can you look at external information, ie Game notes, game plan, counter plays, X is countered by Y"

i currently have my first 10 moves printed in a excel spread sheet which i printed into 4 mage wars size cards and fit it into the back sheet of my mage book. i find it useful because i can plan stuff like "if i need 21 mana to summon X at turn 7, i cant spend more then 8 mana in turn 4"

a practical example might help
here is an example of my game-play for my temple priestess (pre errata)
(http://gbimg.org/p.php?t=ngfJm) (http://gbimg.org/ngfJm) (http://gbimg.org)

if i wanted to summon an angel (east wind is just a place holder) in turn 5, i have no spare mana. so in one game i had to dodge an attack in turn 4 so as i know i spent 9 mana that round i could pick any other spell that would cost 9 or less mana (in this case i chose reverse attack)

so would bringing a printout like this be allowed at any sanctioned event according to Arcane wonders (i understand other TO's can have custom rules, but they usually base it of AW rulings)
Title: Re: Game plan and "cheat sheets"
Post by: nitrodavid on August 04, 2013, 07:48:20 pm
If there is no information about this can i assume that it is not illegal?
Title: Re: Game plan and "cheat sheets"
Post by: Doma0997 on August 04, 2013, 08:03:16 pm
I honestly wouldn't feel comfortable with it. I mean, I brought it up to my group, and most of them said it should either be memorized or worst case, just put it in the spellbook in the exact order you play. Honestly it's up to the TO, however seeing as this isn't really fleshed out as a tournament game yet, there is no official ruling that I know of. I wouldn't be surprised if a 'no outside assisting resource' rule was decided on, as is most cases I've seen.

So no official answer yet.
Title: Re: Game plan and "cheat sheets"
Post by: Shad0w on August 05, 2013, 11:46:47 am
I would not allow outside match notes in the events I run. It is a very common rule in almost every major tourney game
Title: Re: Game plan and "cheat sheets"
Post by: nitrodavid on August 05, 2013, 08:57:57 pm
alright, time to study up
Title: Re: Game plan and "cheat sheets"
Post by: Shad0w on August 06, 2013, 07:17:43 am
alright, time to study up

Notes taken during a match are fine for that match.
Title: Re: Game plan and "cheat sheets"
Post by: reddawn on August 06, 2013, 12:09:44 pm
Taking notes during play, official or not, seems kinda...inconsiderate.  MW games last long enough even with both parties paying attention.  I guess if you don't have a strategy buddy to talk to during games, it's ok. 
Title: Re: Game plan and "cheat sheets"
Post by: Shad0w on August 06, 2013, 12:22:02 pm
Taking notes during play, official or not, seems kinda...inconsiderate.  MW games last long enough even with both parties paying attention.  I guess if you don't have a strategy buddy to talk to during games, it's ok.

It is possible to take notes and not slow a match down.
Title: Re: Game plan and "cheat sheets"
Post by: cbalian on August 06, 2013, 01:06:54 pm
Being an Excel geek I really like your format and set up Nitro.  Very cool.
Title: Re: Game plan and "cheat sheets"
Post by: nitrodavid on August 07, 2013, 04:39:52 am
I found that just making the spell books was not enough as I had no drive at the start of the match. once I used my excel to plan the first 10 moves my game pace increased dramatically.
Title: Re: Game plan and "cheat sheets"
Post by: piousflea on August 08, 2013, 08:50:21 am
I've seen several tournament players take notes during a game and I don't have a problem with it. If you want a separate sheet to keep track of how many minor heals or force pushes are left in your deck, or how many dispels I've used up, that's fine with me.

That said, I expect that note sheet to be blank at the beginning of the match. If you walk into a Saturday/Sunday tourney match with a sheet full of words and numbers, I can only assume that you've spied on Thursday/Friday games and taken notes on everyone else's spellbook construction. While it's practically a given that some highly motivated tournament players will spectate other people's matches and use this as an unfair advantage, I sure as hell don't want to see them refer to a page of notes on my spellbook.
Title: Re: Game plan and "cheat sheets"
Post by: Shad0w on August 08, 2013, 11:46:26 am
I've seen several tournament players take notes during a game and I don't have a problem with it. If you want a separate sheet to keep track of how many minor heals or force pushes are left in your deck, or how many dispels I've used up, that's fine with me.

That said, I expect that note sheet to be blank at the beginning of the match. If you walk into a Saturday/Sunday tourney match with a sheet full of words and numbers, I can only assume that you've spied on Thursday/Friday games and taken notes on everyone else's spellbook construction. While it's practically a given that some highly motivated tournament players will spectate other people's matches and use this as an unfair advantage, I sure as hell don't want to see them refer to a page of notes on my spellbook.

This is what I am talking about
Title: Re: Game plan and "cheat sheets"
Post by: zot on August 09, 2013, 03:18:20 am
   Agreed. Shadow, for the tournement play, there may be some folks who are working demos for AW that could be helping run and also playing in the tournies. I would guess that if they are helping run the event, they are not allowed to play any matches for the whole tournement. But if they help run on one day are they allowed to play on a different day? If so, they would have access to see the sheets for spell books that players have to submitted on the day they helped run. I am preguessing no they cannot help run on one day and play on another. But that could give an unfair advantage if they would be allowed.

   I also know that folks want to help with events to lend a hand, and also want to play too. It was just me wondering about the technicalities/logistics.
Title: Re: Game plan and "cheat sheets"
Post by: Shad0w on August 09, 2013, 02:19:57 pm
   Agreed. Shadow, for the tournement play, there may be some folks who are working demos for AW that could be helping run and also playing in the tournies. I would guess that if they are helping run the event, they are not allowed to play any matches for the whole tournement. But if they help run on one day are they allowed to play on a different day? If so, they would have access to see the sheets for spell books that players have to submitted on the day they helped run. I am preguessing no they cannot help run on one day and play on another. But that could give an unfair advantage if they would be allowed.

   I also know that folks want to help with events to lend a hand, and also want to play too. It was just me wondering about the technicalities/logistics.

All build list are with Patrick and myself and can only be looked at by MW people not playing in the event. If you want to copy your list I allow it after the current event or before the next event.
Title: Re: Game plan and "cheat sheets"
Post by: Hanma on August 09, 2013, 02:55:24 pm
Actually, in most games, magic for example you are allowed to bring outside notes within reason. Such as like, I'm playing against X, this deck usually has X threat that destroys me. Etc.
Title: Re: Game plan and "cheat sheets"
Post by: Shad0w on August 09, 2013, 11:10:55 pm
Actually, in most games, magic for example you are allowed to bring outside notes within reason. Such as like, I'm playing against X, this deck usually has X threat that destroys me. Etc.

The rule was changed again double check the MTR (http://www.wizards.com/ContentResources/Wizards/WPN/Main/Documents/Magic_The_Gathering_Tournament_Rules_PDF1.pdf)


2.11Taking NotesPlayers are allowed to take written notes during a match and may refer to those notes while that match is in progress. At the beginning of a match, each player’s note sheet must be empty and must remain visible throughout the match.
Players do not have to explain or reveal notes to other players. Judges may ask to see a player’s notes and/or request that the player explain his or her notes. Players may not refer to other notes, including notes from previous matches, during games. Between games, players may refer to a brief set of notes made before the match. They are not required to reveal these notes to their opponents. These notes must be removed from the play area before the beginning of the next game. Excessive quantities of notes (more than a sheet or two) are not allowed and may be penalized as slow play. Players and spectators (exception: authorized press) may not make notes while drafting. Players may not reference any outside notes during drafting, card pool registration, or deckbuilding.

Players may refer to Oracle text, either electronically or in paper form, at any time. They must do so publicly and in a format (such as gatherer.wizards.com, other official Wizards of the Coast sources, or printouts of their sources)which contains no other strategic information. If a player wishes to view Oracle text in private, he or she must ask a judge. Artistic modifications to cards that indirectly provide minor strategic information are acceptable. The Head Judge is the final arbiter on what cards and notes are acceptable for a tournament
Title: Re: Game plan and "cheat sheets"
Post by: Hanma on August 10, 2013, 02:59:42 am
Oh, huh, touche sir. I could have sworn you could, this is what I get for posting a thought without googling for evidence. :)