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Mage Wars => General Discussion => Topic started by: Arlemus on August 22, 2013, 11:18:50 am

Title: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Arlemus on August 22, 2013, 11:18:50 am
Is there a date set for when AW will start spoiling the new set?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: jacksmack on August 22, 2013, 11:24:15 am
omg.. you got my expectations to this thread skyrocket in the 0.3543534 sec it took me to read the topic and click it.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Arlemus on August 22, 2013, 11:39:57 am
I'm an evil person,  ;D
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on August 22, 2013, 12:16:09 pm
Must be getting ready to play a Necro.

I thought the same when I saw the thread title, like there would be DvN spoilers here!  :-\

Looking forward to this expansion!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on August 22, 2013, 12:22:21 pm
Me too.  I really hope the Necro is cool and effective because it'd be a shame if the Necro ends up being on the same power level as the Warlord.  Necro's and undead have always been one of my favorite themes in fantasy games, so I've been pumped for this expansion since I heard about it.  Bring on the spoilers!  :)

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on August 22, 2013, 12:51:42 pm
Yes although I try not to get expectations too high or it easy to be let down.  But those are 2 of my favorite types of characters in other games.  In fact I still play the original EverQuest game and have been a Druid for 13 years now.  :P  I am eager to see there version of how a Druid plays out in MW.

Necros are so cool too, so I'm eager for both actually.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Boocheck on August 22, 2013, 02:48:18 pm
Somewhat, i still see a Dryad vs. Necromancer.

Druid in my head looks a lot different :)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Moonglow on August 22, 2013, 02:50:30 pm
You've watched the Gencon overview of the new art and cards I take it?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Locusshifter on August 23, 2013, 02:01:47 pm
Me too.  I really hope the Necro is cool and effective because it'd be a shame if the Necro ends up being on the same power level as the Warlord.  Necro's and undead have always been one of my favorite themes in fantasy games, so I've been pumped for this expansion since I heard about it.  Bring on the spoilers!  :)

I'll be heart broken if the Necro isn't a force to be reckoned with. I have to assume that Sardonyx is intended for the Necro, and I have a hard time believing it won't be awesome.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Memnaelar on August 23, 2013, 05:08:11 pm
Also awesome will be the way Necro will almost certainly have synergy with a number of Dark cards that haven't seen as much play thus far (at least from what I've read).  Malacoda and other Poison damage sources that focus on the living will be really strong in a Necro book that has almost no living creatures in it.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: reddawn on August 24, 2013, 12:20:29 am
People don't know Malacoda is good because they don't know what a Force Crush is.  4 direct damage per turn plus Ghoul Rot and Moloch's Torment gets stupid fast.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: aquestrion on August 24, 2013, 01:26:49 am
And rot from bats or tegu plus burns
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Arlemus on August 30, 2013, 08:16:07 pm
If anyone missed it, cards from the new set will start to be spoiled THIS WEEKEND (tomorrow or sunday).

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on August 31, 2013, 03:03:29 pm
If anyone missed it, cards from the new set will start to be spoiled THIS WEEKEND (tomorrow or sunday).

Where did you hear that at?

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Cowbell on August 31, 2013, 03:52:20 pm
Hey Koz, it was mentioned on the facebook page, my cut and paste skills are lacking but here is what was said:

Branden Voss I think everyone would be well incentivised by some more necro or druid spoilers.
Yesterday at 10:38am via mobile · Like

Mage Wars Coming this weekend!
Yesterday at 10:53am · Unlike · 5
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on August 31, 2013, 03:54:29 pm
Cool!  Will look forward to the spoilers.
I just ordered the Nec vs Dru expansion set at the Mage Wars store today, so I am ready to go!  :)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: isel on September 02, 2013, 08:57:04 am
When the spoilers begin?  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on September 02, 2013, 05:32:44 pm
See Facebook of course.....we even start with a new Trait!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Shonaman on September 02, 2013, 07:17:16 pm
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/1255182_567802903255806_1064566125_n.png)

On Facebook. Here's the Mage Wars Facebook link: https://www.facebook.com/MageWars?hc_location=stream
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Altropos on September 02, 2013, 07:30:41 pm
Long-time lurker, first time poster.

I'm really excited for our upcoming magi and the new spells they're bringing. That said I don't want to see all of them officially spoiled before I get to open my box. One spell a week would suit me fine and whet my appetite without taking away from that Christmas morning feeling I want so much.

"But Alt," you say, and then realizing that this is a written medium, type, "Just don't look at the spoilers." And that's a fair point save that the cards pop up on Facebook, and any thread might contain spoilers, and I'm not made of stone. October will be here soon enough. Let's savor the anticipation. Please, if you're set on releasing info on most of the cards hold the casters more dear and let us be surprised.

(Oh, and if you spoil a card like acid ball with a new ability like corrode, have a heart and tell us what it means.)

--Alt
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on September 02, 2013, 09:21:57 pm
Oh wow. That's going on Wizard's Tower for sure. If not as a water Mage then at least splashed in Earth Mage. That's a real help against Iron Golem, too. Starting off with a bang! And great art!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on September 02, 2013, 10:37:51 pm
This is what was posted about corrode by "Mage Wars" on the facebook page:

Corrode
Condition Marker
Corrode wears away armor. For each Corrode condition marker on an object, it receives Armor -1. Objects can never have Corrode markers on them which would reduce their armor to below zero. Extra markers are destroyed. If an object with zero armor would gain a Corrode condition marker, each marker it would receive instead becomes one point of direct acid damage. Incorporeal objects are immune to Corrode.

Example: A Timber Wolf is enchanted with Rhino Hide, and has three Corrode markers. If his Rhino Hide is dispelled he would lose one of the Corrode Markers.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Moonglow on September 02, 2013, 11:59:03 pm
Tisn't a major, but it feels that the MW info is split across three sites, here - which feels like it should be the default platform, BGG, and increasingly Facebook. 

See Facebook of course.....we even start with a new Trait!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 03, 2013, 12:04:18 am
It's coming on the website here.  The future articles should have a more even distribution.  There are many more previews planned, and I'm excited for them.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: jacksmack on September 03, 2013, 06:09:45 am
Is effect from corrosive added before or after damage is applied?

If i cast Acid Ball on a timber wolf (10 hp and 2 armor):
2 normal damage
0 crits
9 on effect (enough for 2 x corrosive)

Do the timberwolf take 0 or 2 damage?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: tarkin84 on September 03, 2013, 06:23:44 am
Guess corrode is applied after damage as per the rulebook: in step 4 you are told to apply damage first and then the effect die.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 03, 2013, 08:04:15 am
There should be an article today that covers that, but you apply the damage from an attack, then any effect.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on September 03, 2013, 08:35:39 am
I'm all for the new spoilers!  Especially if there is any new traits, so we can make sure we discuss/understand them before they go live so can get in and play right away.  I can just not look if I don't want to see them.

Maybe even a summary of any new traits/conditions would be cool to see.  Corrode being on that list.

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 03, 2013, 08:45:21 am
I think as the previews are written you'll start to see all of the new abilities and fresh keywords for this set.  It's pretty exciting, in fact we should have a preview that will reveal two new keywords on Wednesday. This is an exciting time to play Mage Wars!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: patrickconnor on September 03, 2013, 08:53:38 pm
I think as the previews are written you'll start to see all of the new abilities and fresh keywords for this set.  It's pretty exciting, in fact we should have a preview that will reveal two new keywords on Wednesday. This is an exciting time to play Mage Wars!

Check out this awesome Druid vs Necromancer Preview of Acid Ball by Assistant Designer, Aaron Brosman

http://magewars.com/jsite/newsblog (http://magewars.com/jsite/newsblog)

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on September 03, 2013, 09:21:22 pm
I think as the previews are written you'll start to see all of the new abilities and fresh keywords for this set.  It's pretty exciting, in fact we should have a preview that will reveal two new keywords on Wednesday. This is an exciting time to play Mage Wars!

Check out this awesome Druid vs Necromancer Preview of Acid Ball by Assistant Designer, Aaron Brosman

http://magewars.com/jsite/newsblog (http://magewars.com/jsite/newsblog)

Sorry to nit pick when you maybe have already sent this to print, but in the text of corrode where it says object there is the potential for confusions due to the fact that corrode potentially interacts with equipment on a mage. If you change instances of 'object' to 'creature or conjuration' this source of confusion could be completely eliminated.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 03, 2013, 09:33:00 pm
Currently as the effects are applied to the target creature, there this cannot go on armor.  However, I see where you're coming from and try to get that wording changed!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 04, 2013, 08:44:06 am
Out of curiosity, how often will the previews be coming?  Once a week?  Twice a week? 

Not being pushy, just want to know how often I need to check the Mage Wars Facebook page ;)

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 04, 2013, 09:00:49 am
Check the news feed at noon today.  The card previews will be every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on September 04, 2013, 09:59:58 am
Has a release date been announced? That's what, 12 spoilers this month and up to another 14 next month?

Forcemaster vs Warlord was 60 unique cards, so that's less than half the set spoiled? If so, I know mystery fans should be happier with that than Conquest!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 04, 2013, 10:12:51 am
Check the news feed at noon today.  The card previews will be every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.

Thank you!  :)

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 04, 2013, 10:15:04 am
Has a release date been announced? That's what, 12 spoilers this month and up to another 14 next month?

Forcemaster vs Warlord was 60 unique cards, so that's less than half the set spoiled? If so, I know mystery fans should be happier with that than Conquest!

They may accelerate the previews as we get closer to release, I think they did that for the last two sets.  I'd like to see the whole set revealed before release so that I can start planning new builds.  Those that don't want to see all the previews don't have to look, those of us that want them shouldn't have them withheld because some people lack restraint ;)

 
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on September 04, 2013, 10:19:09 am
In my friend's case, I think he wants everyone to struggle with the new environment while he picks out the best cards for himself :)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 04, 2013, 11:17:01 am
I prefer leaving some mystery. ;)  But I think the previews will give you a great idea what this set has to offer.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: maxlongstreet on September 04, 2013, 12:34:40 pm
Zombie minion is up!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on September 04, 2013, 01:48:03 pm
Well they do want to sell the product and without letting people know at least some of what they will be paying money for it is difficult.  It generates interest and provides information.  If I want total mystery and to have no idea what I am purchasing I can ignore the spoilers.  For me I like to get a taste of what I am buying.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on September 04, 2013, 02:08:01 pm
For me I like to get a taste of what I am buying.
I like mine with lots of mashed taters, white gravy, fried okra, some apple pie ala mode, and Chicken Fried Steak...the more the better :)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 04, 2013, 02:50:13 pm
Well they do want to sell the product and without letting people know at least some of what they will be paying money for it is difficult.  It generates interest and provides information.  If I want total mystery and to have no idea what I am purchasing I can ignore the spoilers.  For me I like to get a taste of what I am buying.

Yeah, there's a reason why companies provide spoilers and it's to generate interest, conversation, and internet traffic with the goal of converting that interest into sales.  I don't get the "savor the mystery" types who lobby for cards to NOT be spoiled.  If they don't want to look, then don't.  Why should those of us that want to see the spoilers be denied that option because there are some who lack restraint?

 
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Altropos on September 04, 2013, 03:45:26 pm
Shh, you'll give my game away.

In my friend's case, I think he wants everyone to struggle with the new environment while he picks out the best cards for himself :)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Moonglow on September 05, 2013, 04:16:34 am
Check out the Chronicles, there are a few new ones there:

http://us5.campaign-archive2.com/?u=9da956a569c65d5b054e80642&id=e38ef24789

Barkskin - +2 upkeep, cantrip that gives +2 armor and some other effects that aren't visible. Might be regeneration.
Vine Snapper - 7 mana slow cast, has a new characteristic 'rooted'
Ziggurat of Undeath - looks like the card revealed at GenCon, whenever a zombie kills something you can reanimate it.
Skeletal Archer - a bony royal archer.

Druids Leaf Ring
Togorah - cant read too much on this one, its a zone card, also rooted, but 21 mana, looks like a big deal.  Has another new characteristic 'uproot' and vigilent.  Also has regenerate 2, a d6 attack and looks like it dazes on 7-10 and stuns 11+. May also have intercept.
Grey Wraith - can teleport 1 zone instead of a move action for 1 mana. Gives a weak condition on 5+, but only a 3d6 attack.
Animate Death - this is the bring back from the discard card... yeaaahh!  Looks like it costs half the creatures casting cost to animate it.  Can't quite see what the creature's undead life is based on.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: tarkin84 on September 05, 2013, 04:40:24 am
Thank you!!!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 05, 2013, 09:34:31 am
Yeah, those all look cool.  The Wraith looks fun, it has Blue Gremlin's Teleport ability, is Incorporeal (with 8 life) and inflicts Weak on a 5+.  The Upkeep 1 is a drag, but is par for the course it seems for Incorporeal creatures.  I like it. 

Lots of new traits on those cards too.  I assume Rooted is going to be some sort of super Unmovable and Uproot is going to be the mana cost for the creature to move.  Not sure what Vigilant does, but it may be that they come into play with their ready marker active, or perhaps they come into play with a Guard marker on it.  Guess we'll see :)

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Shad0w on September 05, 2013, 10:02:44 am
Move along folks nothing to see here. 8)

Yeah, those all look cool.  The Wraith looks fun, it has Blue Gremlin's Teleport ability, is Incorporeal (with 8 life) and inflicts Weak on a 5+.  The Upkeep 1 is a drag, but is par for the course it seems for Incorporeal creatures.  I like it. 

Lots of new traits on those cards too.  I assume Rooted is going to be some sort of super Unmovable and Uproot is going to be the mana cost for the creature to move.  Not sure what Vigilant does, but it may be that they come into play with their ready marker active, or perhaps they come into play with a Guard marker on it.  Guess we'll see :)


 
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on September 05, 2013, 10:15:44 am
If Togorah is a Vigilant Interceptor, and that means what I think it means, that's pretty impressive.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 05, 2013, 10:26:28 am
If Togorah is a Vigilant Interceptor, and that means what I think it means, that's pretty impressive.

Yeah, I'm guessing he comes into play with a Guard marker, which is pretty sweet, especially with the Interceptor as you mentioned.  :)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on September 05, 2013, 11:25:21 am
I was able to get some more deatails out of the cards by sharpening in photoshop:

Druid's Leaf Ring (2 mana, quick spell, 0-2, Mage Level:?)
[Equipment: Plant]

Druid only
Once per round this Mage may p--ay 1 fewer mana--when she casts of reveals a p--lant spell.-- Enchantments only receive this dis--count when they-- are revealed.


Togorah, Forest Sentinel (21 mana, full cast, 0-0,Zone, Nature[4])
Creature: Plant, Tree, Sequoia

Armor: 2 Health: 18

Full Attack: Melee 6 dice, effect: 7-10 Daze 11+Smash Reach
Rooted - Uproot 2 - Vigilant - Intercept--Flame+2--Regenerate 2 - Hydro Immunity--Legendary--

[Speculation on Uproot 2: You must pay 2 mana to take a move action with this creature]


Grey Wraith (10 mana, fullcast, 0-0, Zone, Dark 3)
Creature: Spirit

Armor: / Health: 8

Quick Attack: Melee 3 dice , effect: 5+ Weak, Ethereal
Upkeep +1 - Incorporeal - Nonliving
Instead of taking a move action, Grey Wraith may pay 1 mana to teleport to an adjacent zone.


Animate Dead (Cost: X, Full-cast, range: 0-0, target: destroyed non-Epic Living Creature, level: Dark 3) Incantation: Necro

Dark Mage Only
--Choose-- a destroyed creature from any discard pile and… Place damage on the creature equal to it's --level. Then plac--e a Zombie marker on this creature. X= half --of the-- creature's casting cost rounded up.


Barkskin (2 mana cast/ 2 mana reveal, quick-spell, 0-2, target: Druid Mage, level: ?)
Enchantment: Plant, ?

Upkeep +2 - Cantrip - ?
Mage gains Armor +2 and Re--generate 2? silient?--


Vine Snapper (Cost: 7 mana, Fullcast, 0-0 Zone Nature: 2)
Creature: Plant, Vine

Armor: 0 Health: 10

Quick Attack: Melee 4 dice
Full Attack: Melee 5 dice, Piercing +1, Devour

Rooted - Regenerate 1 - Flame +2 - Hydro Immunity


Ziggurat of Undeath (8 mana, quick spell, 0-1, Zone, level: ?)

Zone Exculsive - Legendary - ?

--Whenever a f--riendly zombie  creature makes a me[lee attack and d--estroys a Living creature, you may pa--y mana equal to half it--'s casting cost (rounded up). to Rean--imate that creature. Whenever-- a  creature comes into play, place a --Zombie-- marker on it and place damage on --it equal to-- it's Level.


Skeletal Archer (11mana, fullcast, 0-0, Zone, Dark 3)
Creature: Undead, Skeleton, Soldier

Armor: 0 Health: 9

Fullattack: Ranged 1-2  4 dice
Quick Attack: Melee 2 dice

Nonliving - Psychic Immunity
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Hale_32bit on September 05, 2013, 01:45:28 pm
What about this? Full text for Animate Dead  and Barkskin.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ekn24oh2hqfc04/Arcane%20Wonders%20Distributor%20Product%20Catalog.pdf (https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ekn24oh2hqfc04/Arcane%20Wonders%20Distributor%20Product%20Catalog.pdf)


Druid's Leaf Ring (2 mana, quick spell, 0-2, Nature[1])
[Equipment: Mana]
Druid only
bla bla bla


Animate Dead (Cost: X, Full-cast, range: 0-0, target: destroyed non-Epic Living Creature, level: Dark 3) Incantation: Necro

Dark Mage Only
Choose a destroyed creature from any discard pile and summon it. Place damage on the creature equal to it's level. Then place a Zombie marker on this creature. X = half of the creature's casting cost rounded up.


Barkskin (2 mana cast/ 2 mana reveal, quick-spell, 0-2, target: Druid Mage, Nature[2])
Enchantment: --Healing, Protection--

Upkeep +2 - Cantrip - Druid only

Mage gains Armor +2 and Regenerate 2.

Ziggurat of Undeath (2 mana, quick spell, 0-1, Dark[2])
Conjuration: --Artifact--

Armor 2

According to an interview from GenCon: Vigilant ~ you may place guard marker on this creature each round for free.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Hale_32bit on September 05, 2013, 02:01:12 pm
Spoilers
http://www.critshappen.net/2013/09/05/mage-wars-druid-vs-necromancer-expansion/ (http://www.critshappen.net/2013/09/05/mage-wars-druid-vs-necromancer-expansion/)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 05, 2013, 02:05:40 pm
Wow, Barkskin is really good for 4 mana.  Really good. 

Not sure what the Zombie marker will give creatures, but I assume it will add the Lumbering and Resilent traits, but we'll see.

If Vigilant allows you to add a Guard marker every round then that's really good too.  Wow.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on September 05, 2013, 02:27:13 pm
Wow, Barkskin is really good for 4 mana.  Really good. 

Not sure what the Zombie marker will give creatures, but I assume it will add the Lumbering and Resilent traits, but we'll see.

If Vigilant allows you to add a Guard marker every round then that's really good too.  Wow.

But Barkskin could cost you 6, 8, 10, 20+ mana depending how long you leave it on.  2 mana upkeep is steep, it's a cool card armore + regen is awesome but 2 mana every turn for it.  I guess it is worth it to pay 2 mana to heal 2 points each turn but there are other regen items that don't cost mana.  Cantrip is cool though, at least you will always have the option of armor and regen.

Would be cool if Vigilant was like the Vigilance trait in MTG which lets the creature attack and still block/guard.  Not saying they should copy Magic by any means just saying Vigilance is one of my favorite traits in that card game, so I'm eager to see how they implement it here.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 05, 2013, 02:30:29 pm
Spoilers
http://www.critshappen.net/2013/09/05/mage-wars-druid-vs-necromancer-expansion/ (http://www.critshappen.net/2013/09/05/mage-wars-druid-vs-necromancer-expansion/)

Ok, those are awesome too.  Holy cow, I am getting really pumped for this set!  I have been anticipating the Necro since he was announced, and now I can't wait! 

The Druid seems really cool too.  Based on the text describing her Treebond ability, it sounds like she'll be able to shunt damage done to herself to her plants possibly.  It also sounds like she may be able to extend the range of her spells through her plants or something like that. 

The Necro description talks about his Eternal Servant ability which sounds cool, and it sounds like he gives his Skeletons the ability to reconstruct themselves in some fashion.

Totally salivating over here!!  8)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 05, 2013, 02:32:44 pm
Wow, Barkskin is really good for 4 mana.  Really good. 

Not sure what the Zombie marker will give creatures, but I assume it will add the Lumbering and Resilent traits, but we'll see.

If Vigilant allows you to add a Guard marker every round then that's really good too.  Wow.

But Barkskin could cost you 6, 8, 10, 20+ mana depending how long you leave it on.  2 mana upkeep is steep, it's a cool card armore + regen is awesome but 2 mana every turn for it.  I guess it is worth it to pay 2 mana to heal 2 points each turn but there are other regen items that don't cost mana.  Cantrip is cool though, at least you will always have the option of armor and regen.

Would be cool if Vigilant was like the Vigilance trait in MTG which lets the creature attack and still block/guard.  Not saying they should copy Magic by any means just saying Vigilance is one of my favorite traits in that card game, so I'm eager to see how they implement it here.

Yeah, missed the Upkeep 2, still, it's very good and well worth the cost IMO

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Hale_32bit on September 05, 2013, 02:39:17 pm
The Druid seems really cool too.  Based on the text describing her Treebond ability, it sounds like she'll be able to shunt damage done to herself to her plants possibly.  It also sounds like she may be able to extend the range of her spells through her plants or something like that. 
I think she use regeneration from plant.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Hale_32bit on September 05, 2013, 02:42:41 pm
Quote
Yeah, missed the Upkeep 2, still, it's very good and well worth the cost IMO
Cost is big because you can use it together with rhino hide. I think this is rhino hide and you can must buy two life each upkep for two mana.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on September 05, 2013, 04:00:17 pm
Cantrip makes it worth almost anything, never worry again about being caught without armor, even after everything has been dispelled/destroyed this can come back out.  Me personally I wouldn't pull it out early and would favor non upkeep forms of armor first, 2 mana per turn (early on) is just too costly, but later game wouldn't matter as much.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Moonglow on September 05, 2013, 04:31:49 pm
Deathlink for the Druid..?

The Druid seems really cool too.  Based on the text describing her Treebond ability, it sounds like she'll be able to shunt damage done to herself to her plants possibly.  It also sounds like she may be able to extend the range of her spells through her plants or something like that. 
I think she use regeneration from plant.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 06, 2013, 12:21:53 pm
They just "spoiled" Ziggaraut of Undeath on Facebook.  I knew this was going to happen when we found all of those cards on other sites.  If they are only going to trickle out the previews this time, they should at least make sure that they are spoiling cards that haven't already been spoiled in promotional ads elsewhere.  Otherwise they aren't much of a spoiler when we've already seen them.

So now we'll have to wait until Monday for the chance to see a card we haven't already seen.  :(
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on September 06, 2013, 01:02:33 pm
Good point.  If they've been shown on Crits Happen or elsewhere they aren't new.

I also like to see a lot more cards that are school of magic based vs specific mage based.

So instead of Necromancer only, Dark Mage only is my general preference.  It adds more flexibility of play and more variety, so you aren't locked into a specific mage.  So if there is a good dark spell the Warlock being able to cast it also adds more flavor to him.  Or Nature Mage items could also be used by the Beastmasters.

I can see how a very few specific items should be mage specific to make them unique but hopefully most cards are school based not mage based if they are limited at all.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Kroko on September 07, 2013, 05:25:11 am
I have question about Reanimate. Reanimated creature recive Bloodthirsty +0, Nonliving, Psychic Immunity and Slow. And now I have few questions:

1) Let's say that Zombie Minion killed for example Bitterwood Fox or Cervere or something with Fast trait. When reanimated acreature with Fast recive Slow trait will  this two traits cancel one another (Cervere can move two zonne but caan't attack) ora Slow is "stronger" and Cervere has Slow trait?

2) Can Zombie Knight of Westlock use his Defence Roll to avoid attac?

3) Can Reanimated creature for example Asyrian Cleric use his Healing Light to heal another  Living creature (for example Acolyte of  the Bog Queen)?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 07, 2013, 08:30:37 am
1) Fast and Slow cancel each other out.  You would have a normal speed zombie fox.

2) Defense rolls are totally allowed.

3) Asyrian Cleric can heal a living creature still, it's just not him anymore.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: patmak1138 on September 07, 2013, 09:57:11 am
Was I just not looking close enough, or does this expansion not include new spell books?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ChimpZilla on September 07, 2013, 10:28:15 am
Was I just not looking close enough, or does this expansion not include new spell books?

It does.

http://us5.campaign-archive2.com/?u=9da956a569c65d5b054e80642&id=e38ef24789

Scroll down.


And is it just me, or does Raptor Vine seem like a solid value creature?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on September 07, 2013, 11:36:48 am
We'll need to wait till the full rules are spoiled, but yeah, the numbers are good.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 07, 2013, 02:15:34 pm
I'm a huge fan of Audrey II.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on September 07, 2013, 03:14:51 pm
I'm really hoping that Rooted gives teleport immunity in addition to immovable.

Some people think that all these cards have been spoiled, but the rules details are keeping me up nights in anticipation. I guess that makes me a rules junkie.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 07, 2013, 03:38:36 pm
Oh, I can totally agree with that.  I download all sorts of free Minis rulebooks just to see what they're doing.  Yea I devour rules. Wait till you see what devour does ...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on September 07, 2013, 03:49:09 pm
Oh, I can totally agree with that.  I download all sorts of free Minis rulebooks just to see what they're doing.  Yea I devour rules. Wait till you see what devour does ...

I'm going to guess that it gains a growth token when it kills a creature... I assume you won't be able to raise that creature as a zombie either...what does a growth token give is my big question.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Kroko on September 07, 2013, 04:23:57 pm
I think it will eat enemy creature, so it won't go to discard pile but will be removed from play for good.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: wolf88 on September 08, 2013, 08:57:19 am
Me personally I wouldn't pull it out early and would favor non upkeep forms of armor first, 2 mana per turn (early on) is just too costly, but later game wouldn't matter as much.

And why not? Cast it early game but don't reveal it. Reveal only after you start being attacked and pay the upkeep only if you can afford it and it's worth it, otherwise it's 4 life points for 4 mana and a quick action in a turn you didn't need it.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Charmyna on September 08, 2013, 11:41:02 am
Me personally I wouldn't pull it out early and would favor non upkeep forms of armor first, 2 mana per turn (early on) is just too costly, but later game wouldn't matter as much.

And why not? Cast it early game but don't reveal it. Reveal only after you start being attacked and pay the upkeep only if you can afford it and it's worth it, otherwise it's 4 life points for 4 mana and a quick action in a turn you didn't need it.

That is a really cool thought! With 1-2 ring(s) its even better.
Actually, im not sure if you can benefit from the regen and then refuse to pay upkeep. The rules are not 100% clear I think.
Btw, if you have 2 corrosion markers on you, you could refuse to pay upkeep and recast it to get the armor back (unless you had still some armor left after its gone).
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Shad0w on September 08, 2013, 01:44:03 pm
If you all have rule questions lets put them into a new thread DvN rules (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=12985.0) just so we dont wonder off topic too much. :P
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 09, 2013, 01:36:08 pm
Was there a new spoiler yet today?  I don't have access to Facebook at work...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Hale_32bit on September 09, 2013, 01:38:43 pm
Was there a new spoiler yet today?  I don't have access to Facebook at work...
No
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 09, 2013, 03:05:36 pm
There is one today, but It doesn't look like it's posted yet.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on September 09, 2013, 07:51:16 pm
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=570432449659518&set=pb.201117713257662.-2207520000.1378774137.&type=3&theater (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=570432449659518&set=pb.201117713257662.-2207520000.1378774137.&type=3&theater)

This guy looks like he is going to see a lot of play. Great offense and decent survivability for his cost. Compare him to Royal Archer and Flaming Hellion and it seems to me like he is a slight uptick in value for your mana.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on September 09, 2013, 08:08:48 pm
He looks pretty cool.  Ranged that works in your zone is kind of nice.  Although I'm not sure if it is better to have ranged 0-1 or 1-2.  I like having 2 range but sucks when they get into your zone then.

Acid attacks look fun and corrode.

I don't suppose water attacks can wash away acid/corrode like it can extinguish burns?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Hale_32bit on September 10, 2013, 04:24:26 am
SPOILERS!!
http://magewars.com/jsite/newsblog/item/177-druid-vs-necromancer-expansion (http://magewars.com/jsite/newsblog/item/177-druid-vs-necromancer-expansion)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Hale_32bit on September 10, 2013, 05:02:43 am
I think
Innate Life = Life.
Lifebound + x = you can prevent x healing points from tree and give them to mage.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Charmyna on September 10, 2013, 06:08:56 am
I think
Innate Life = Life.
Lifebound + x = you can prevent x healing points from tree and give them to mage.

I guess its the other way round. The tree is supposed to protect the mage.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: isel on September 10, 2013, 08:31:30 am
(http://magewars.com/jsite/images/dvn%20ichthellid.png)

When the egg give us a new creature, that creature will have a token to reproduce another time?

Dark Mage scares me!!!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: jacksmack on September 10, 2013, 08:40:53 am
(http://magewars.com/jsite/images/dvn%20ichthellid.png)

When the egg give us a new creature, that creature will have a token to reproduce another time?

Dark Mage scares me!!!

Ichthellid Larva

A creature with this condition marker has been impregnated with the Ichthellid Larva and is now a host to this dark creature’s spawn. Upon the death of the infected creature, an adult Ichthellid emerges with a voracious need to find another living host.

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Shad0w on September 10, 2013, 08:48:21 am
(http://magewars.com/jsite/images/dvn%20ichthellid.png)

When the egg give us a new creature, that creature will have a token to reproduce another time?

Dark Mage scares me!!!

I gave Bryan the idea for him based of the movie Alien.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: isel on September 10, 2013, 10:27:53 am
(http://magewars.com/jsite/images/dvn%20ichthellid.png)

When the egg give us a new creature, that creature will have a token to reproduce another time?

Dark Mage scares me!!!

I gave Bryan the idea for him based of the movie Alien.

I believe many people will hate you for this!!!! But not me ;)

them the new egg have another egg??
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 10, 2013, 10:34:21 am
SPOILERS!!
http://magewars.com/jsite/newsblog/item/177-druid-vs-necromancer-expansion (http://magewars.com/jsite/newsblog/item/177-druid-vs-necromancer-expansion)

That Unstable Zombie is very cool.  It should have been named "Versatile Zombie" instead ;)

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on September 10, 2013, 10:38:30 am
SPOILERS!!
http://magewars.com/jsite/newsblog/item/177-druid-vs-necromancer-expansion (http://magewars.com/jsite/newsblog/item/177-druid-vs-necromancer-expansion)

That Unstable Zombie is very cool.  It should have been named "Versatile Zombie" instead ;)

Yah it seems pretty stable to me. I mean it even heals itself. Maybe they are referring to its personality.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 10, 2013, 11:07:56 am
SPOILERS!!
http://magewars.com/jsite/newsblog/item/177-druid-vs-necromancer-expansion (http://magewars.com/jsite/newsblog/item/177-druid-vs-necromancer-expansion)

That Unstable Zombie is very cool.  It should have been named "Versatile Zombie" instead ;)

Yah it seems pretty stable to me. I mean it even heals itself. Maybe they are referring to its personality.

I think that is my favorite creature spoiled so far.  It seems good in a mana vs effectivness ratio.  Tough, moderate damage, and a self-healing ability.  Nice.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Hale_32bit on September 10, 2013, 11:15:13 am
I think unstable zombie must choose option at random, because he ustable :)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on September 10, 2013, 11:46:49 am
I think unstable zombie must choose option at random, because he ustable :)

That would have made more sense thematically.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on September 10, 2013, 11:54:42 am
He should be so unstable that he might randomly attack any target in his range (possibly including friendly targets).  Kind of like a mindless zombie that will attack anything.  Not suggesting for real just kind of playing with fun options.

They should have a mind attack or enchant spell like Berzerk that has that effect, the targeted creature would randomly attack any target in range.  - ok that is off topic sorry
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on September 10, 2013, 07:20:25 pm
For those who are not keeping up and are interested with the DvN spoilers out starting 9 mere days we have, if you dig around a bit, seen 33% of the new cards in the set of 56 new cards. Spells broken down by Type:

Attack = 1 (5)
Conjurations = 3 (9)
Creatures = 11 (16)
Enchantments = 1 (9)
Equipment = 1 (11)
Incantations = 1 (10)

What are the numbers in parentheses you ask? Why they are the counts of new cards from the FvM release. I know we don't have enough releases to do an accurate trend analysis, but I thought it might be fun to look at history to see what the future might behold. I have been working on preparing OCTGN for the DvN release and have been having a blast looking at the cards and entering in all the data that we have. How does that song go? Future's so Bright, I gotta wear shades.....yes my pre-order is in and I can't wait to get my formerly nicotine stained hands on the real thing! Come on October(fest)!!!!!


Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on September 10, 2013, 10:04:53 pm
yep every spoiler just makes me want it more.

Already pre-ordered 2 copies, ready to go!

The trait and abilities list looks pretty cool.  Some unique, different stuff.

I still hope they release a copy of a sheet with all the traits/abilities/conditions when it comes out instead of just a list of the new ones added like they did with Forcemaster vs Warlord.  We shall see...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Arlemus on September 10, 2013, 11:27:56 pm
(http://magewars.com/jsite/images/dvn%20ichthellid.png)

When the egg give us a new creature, that creature will have a token to reproduce another time?

Dark Mage scares me!!!

Ichthellid Larva

A creature with this condition marker has been impregnated with the Ichthellid Larva and is now a host to this dark creature’s spawn. Upon the death of the infected creature, an adult Ichthellid emerges with a voracious need to find another living host.

Yeah, I'm gonna have to make a bunch of clicking noises when I play this card.  It's weird, but it's just gonna happen.  I'm sorry.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on September 11, 2013, 06:50:53 am
When that 'adult' emerges from the dead host is that another card, a condition token, or what is representing the new adult? 
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: jacksmack on September 11, 2013, 06:54:32 am
When that 'adult' emerges from the dead host is that another card, a condition token, or what is representing the new adult?

And more importantly... if its a new card must it be in your spellbook? or can it be added to the game without spending spellpoints on it?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on September 11, 2013, 07:08:34 am
Actually that is the more important question, I was wondering that too.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on September 11, 2013, 10:12:53 am
When that 'adult' emerges from the dead host is that another card, a condition token, or what is representing the new adult?

And more importantly... if its a new card must it be in your spellbook? or can it be added to the game without spending spellpoints on it?

Yes, that makes a pretty huge difference in how powerful this card is. If we are limited to only four of them (since his level is 2) then the spawning ability is a nice trick but doesn't have the potential to end in an true alien apocalypse.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on September 11, 2013, 10:20:52 am
It's very flavorful, but it's not competitive. Way too easy to kill to be a real threat. Probably intentionally so.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Shad0w on September 11, 2013, 10:25:47 am
When that 'adult' emerges from the dead host is that another card, a condition token, or what is representing the new adult?

And more importantly... if its a new card must it be in your spellbook? or can it be added to the game without spending spellpoints on it?

I am not allowed to say because it has yet to be revealed.  8) Now just look into the light *** FLASH *** (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnEWvBsRjBo) and that is how it works.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Charmyna on September 11, 2013, 11:19:23 am
Do we see the druid today? Or Friday? Cant wait!!!!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 11, 2013, 11:23:16 am
Do we see the druid today? Or Friday? Cant wait!!!!

Should be today!  Spoilers are supposed to be on Monday, Wednesday and Friday :)

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Memnaelar on September 11, 2013, 08:51:08 pm
The Druid is up on Facebook.

Apparently only skilled in Level 1 of the Water School.  Have we seen a mage like that before?  Does that mean that spells higher than Level 1 are consider out of school?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ChimpZilla on September 11, 2013, 08:59:45 pm
The Druid is up on Facebook.

Apparently only skilled in Level 1 of the Water School.  Have we seen a mage like that before?  Does that mean that spells higher than Level 1 are consider out of school?

My guess is yes. Level ones cost a point. Level two plus costs double.

Statistically the weakest mage with the worst training, but if her vine ability reads like I think it does, she will eat control builds alive.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on September 11, 2013, 09:21:25 pm
Druid looks pretty cool.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on September 11, 2013, 09:46:07 pm
Random Thoughts, somewhat freeform, somewhat addled:

A lot depends on the rules clarifications, and which spells turn out to be vines, but it sure looks like any of the vine creatures can be summoned to any zone from the first turn on. Opponents' conjurations will not be safe from immediate Raptor Vines. This will certainly threaten Mana Crystal, Hand of Bim-Shalla, etc, etc. Poor Akiro's Hammer, though. I also feel bad for any any rogue spellbook that relied on walls. That Acid Raptor was bad news for Wall of Steel, but Vine Tokens make the LOS requirement kinda quaint, even before the splash damage from Eagleclaw Boots.

Is Tanglevine going to get an erratum to become a vine?
Fellella is Nature Mage Only, and vine tokens are familiar friendly, so if there are vine enchantments Fellella will be able to cast them.

I wonder if Druid will come with a familiar. I thought Joctari Beastmaster was going to have a Hawk, Scree.

Apparently Druid can play 6 dissolve for 6 spellbook points. If she doesn't get to wear clothes, neither do we. I hope she can summon a cactus.

Best plan against Druid really does seem to be to summon a lot of creatures, maybe by defending a spawnpoint for a bit, and then start casting lots of fire. Warlock with Deathlock seems well suited. Druid will teach a lot of opponents discipline: she's got very little health, low channeling, and two opposed schools. You can kill her if you can play your gameplan instead of hers.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on September 11, 2013, 09:58:19 pm
she's got very little health, low channeling, and two opposed schools. You can kill her if you can play your gameplan instead of hers.
Once she is Treebond all of these +4 Innate Life (speculation that Deathlock will not affect it) and +1 Channeling. Her stats are then 34 and 10 not shabby.

The Vines are a lot more powerful than I expected. I was expecting more a growth pattern emanating for her start square. It looks like she could place a creature in the OP mages start zone, round one...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: aquestrion on September 11, 2013, 10:44:15 pm
I think warlord has the worst training... there are only two spells I am personaly concerned about battle fury and whirling strike... all the other war spells i use are novice.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 11, 2013, 10:49:55 pm
Just to be clear, the rulebook for Druid vs Necromancer has some clarifications on the spreading vines ability.
Quote
Spreading Vines
Life springs up in the footsteps of the Druid. Each Deployment Phase, the Druid may place a new Vine marker in her zone.  Or, she may instead place that marker in a zone, or adjacent to a zone, containing a Vine marker she controls. The Druid, and her spawnpoints and familiars, can use her Vine markers to extend the range of vine spells they cast.  See “Vine Markers” in the codex.

Also, when she casts a spell using a vine marker she has to target it, meaning she still needs LOS. She can ignore the range on the spell though.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on September 12, 2013, 08:50:45 am
There's the clarification I wondered about. Still pretty good for a free action with no mana cost, but not nearly the doom of conjurations it could have been.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 12, 2013, 09:00:42 am
Yea, with this wording I was still able to summon a Kralethor in Bryan's deployment zone. It works out very well. Just wait till you can try it.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on September 12, 2013, 09:56:18 am
Yea, with this wording I was still able to summon a Kralethor in Bryan's deployment zone. It works out very well. Just wait till you can try it.

Do you like the Druid or the Necromancer better?  Or you like them both but for different reasons?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 12, 2013, 10:14:45 am
I like the Druid better, but it's not by much. The Necro was fantastic to work on. After all Ziggurat of Undeath was a card I made. However, I didn't have a problem playing the Druid, but that is also because of another card I suggested. We'll see if I can preview it for Friday  ;D
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: fas723 on September 12, 2013, 04:15:03 pm
Idol of Pestilence seems to be the death of Vines...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: baronzaltor on September 12, 2013, 04:20:32 pm
Idol of Pestilence seems to be the death of Vines...
Only damages creatures, not conjurations.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Moonglow on September 12, 2013, 08:02:35 pm
Seems interesting that the Druids treebond is a one off option (permanently destroyed when the conjuration is destroyed).  This is quite different to the +special token that the other mages (beastmaster pet, warlock blood thingie etc).  Is Treebond that much stronger that it should only be allowed once?  Or was it for some sense of theme?

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 12, 2013, 08:15:37 pm
This is actually a bit of both. It's quite a strong "special marker", but it's also because of the Druid's themes. She's a guardian of nature, her trees are part of her.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Moonglow on September 12, 2013, 09:44:20 pm
It did always feel that the beastmaster should suffer some kind of psychic shock, limited number of pets than the Druid.  The Warlock already has limitations on his special creature as it slowly kills him if he keeps creating more.  But it seemed that the beastmaster could care less that his 'pet' just took one for the team. 

I guess thinking mythology wise Dryad's were linked to a tree - and died if the tree died, so I can see some parallels to the Druid there.  But it seems odd to limit it to a single tree with no other health/consequences.  It could have been like a reverse of the Warlock, a health bonus when the treebond is made, but an actual penalty if the bonded conjuration dies; due to psychic shock.

Anyway, just musing.  It does all look great!


This is actually a bit of both. It's quite a strong "special marker", but it's also because of the Druid's themes. She's a guardian of nature, her trees are part of her.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 12, 2013, 10:18:01 pm
We toyed with a lot of other downsides for the Treebond. In the end we went with the straightforward one. After all, she loses the extra life, channel, and lifebond. We thought that was enough.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on September 12, 2013, 10:20:55 pm
This is actually a bit of both. It's quite a strong "special marker", but it's also because of the Druid's themes. She's a guardian of nature, her trees are part of her.

Would be cool if she could bond to another tree.  Only 1 tree for life, you want to make sure that tree doesn't die.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: isel on September 13, 2013, 08:57:54 am
Images from facebook!!!

I post them because someone dont have facebook!!

(https://scontent-a-mad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1236434_571265852909511_1262754640_n.png)
(https://scontent-b-mad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1234672_570671729635590_472995141_n.png)
(https://scontent-a-mad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/562303_568675279835235_748745874_n.png)
(https://scontent-b-mad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1239574_568214539881309_303377086_n.png)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DarthDadaD20 on September 13, 2013, 09:15:44 am
I love spiting raptor so very,very much.

*I love spiting raptor-hes my pet-hes my pet*
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 13, 2013, 11:03:04 am
Here is my spitting raptor. There are many like it, but this one's mine.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DarthDadaD20 on September 13, 2013, 11:19:29 am
You done out quoted me using full metal jacket. (Cheater! :) )

I DONT KNOW BUT I'VE BEEN TOLD THAT FROST DAMAGE IS MIGHTY COLD!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Shad0w on September 13, 2013, 11:33:05 am
Here is my spitting raptor. There are many like it, but this one's mine.

Blindsided by the use of FMJ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kU0XCVey_U) here
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 13, 2013, 12:29:08 pm
Every once in a while I do surprise people.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on September 13, 2013, 12:43:40 pm
Here is my spitting raptor. There are many like it, but this one's mine.

This is my Raptor, This is my Wand. This is for Fighting and This is for Fun....
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DarthDadaD20 on September 13, 2013, 12:48:38 pm
God I really wish we had a "like" button right about now!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 13, 2013, 01:04:12 pm
So many banana stickers right now!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on September 13, 2013, 01:35:49 pm
So sitting here wondering if starting a new subject:

DVN Preview #6 - The Druids Next Most Awesomely spoiled Card

If someone I won't name, (first letter is L and the last letter is E (in his name of course)) would consider that quite pushy  8)

My mouse finger is getting tired of clicking on the refresh button on the MW FB page..... ::)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 13, 2013, 01:45:43 pm
I'm hitting refresh too. I'm not sure when it's coming up on the website, as I don't handle the uploads yet.  But I'll poke the gentleman who does :)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on September 13, 2013, 02:09:16 pm
We wont name him either (first letter is P and the last letter is K (in his name of course)) but I am sure he is on it now ;)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on September 13, 2013, 08:20:55 pm
Are Seedling Pods plant creatures?

1 armor and 8 life seems kind of low for a spawnpoint.

I do like cantrip stuff though!  Saves spell book points.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on September 13, 2013, 08:56:46 pm
Add Treebond into the mix and the stats move to Life=12 Armor=2 and Lifebond+2. Not Shabby at all.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 13, 2013, 09:38:44 pm
1 armor, 8 health and flame +2?  That's...not great.  If you Treebond with it it's ok but still pretty fragile which makes it pretty risky to Treebond with since it will already be a target due to being a spawnpoint.  If you Treebond it, it will have two bullseye's  on it instead of one so don't expect it to live long.  Losing two valuable resources in one blow is a great way to lose a game... 

At least it's cheap.  Hopefully these seed pod things will be cool.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on September 13, 2013, 09:58:50 pm
If I were betting, I might guess that Seedling Pod is a range 0-2 Incantation that places Vines.

If that's the case, I can see some dangerous uses for it immediately.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on September 13, 2013, 10:09:23 pm
1 armor, 8 health and flame +2?  That's...not great.  If you Treebond with it it's ok but still pretty fragile which makes it pretty risky to Treebond with since it will already be a target due to being a spawnpoint.  If you Treebond it, it will have two bullseye's  on it instead of one so don't expect it to live long.  Losing two valuable resources in one blow is a great way to lose a game... 

At least it's cheap.  Hopefully these seed pod things will be cool.

All of the Tree Conjurations that we have seen are 8 Health and Flame +2. I agree that is innately a bit  vulnerable to the Flame school but if you wish to Treebond and given what we have seen so far this seems to be the range of abilities that the Tree Subtype comes in at.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: isel on September 14, 2013, 12:15:34 pm
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1185648_571954669507296_2120714498_n.png)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DarthDadaD20 on September 14, 2013, 12:55:47 pm
I really love the little details in the art of this card- The art is SO amazing in this game- this set is no exception.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Moonglow on September 14, 2013, 04:00:13 pm
A bit vulnerable to fire damage seems the understatement of the year. When nearly every conjuration or creature she has is +2 fire damage, combined with hydro immunity, it feels like the lash of fire or a few fire spells will cut through the forest like butter with few options for reducing burns. I'm sure it's been well play tested, but am interested in how the balance is introduced.


1 armor, 8 health and flame +2?  That's...not great.  If you Treebond with it it's ok but still pretty fragile which makes it pretty risky to Treebond with since it will already be a target due to being a spawnpoint.  If you Treebond it, it will have two bullseye's  on it instead of one so don't expect it to live long.  Losing two valuable resources in one blow is a great way to lose a game... 

At least it's cheap.  Hopefully these seed pod things will be cool.

All of the Tree Conjurations that we have seen are 8 Health and Flame +2. I agree that is innately a bit  vulnerable to the Flame school but if you wish to Treebond and given what we have seen so far this seems to be the range of abilities that the Tree Subtype comes in at.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on September 14, 2013, 04:10:43 pm
We might finally have a use for Firestorm, though Ring of Fire is still plenty scary.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on September 14, 2013, 05:50:33 pm
A bit vulnerable to fire damage seems the understatement of the year. When nearly every conjuration or creature she has is +2 fire damage, combined with hydro immunity, it feels like the lash of fire or a few fire spells will cut through the forest like butter with few options for reducing burns. I'm sure it's been well play tested, but am interested in how the balance is introduced.

While true, the 6 book points for Dissolve for 6 Dissolves will go a long way on the LoH. with Lifebond being able to take off some of the damage to mage who can heal and then the Regenerate 2 on the Tree makes it a bit tougher than I initially estimated. Yes you are going to have to pay a lot attention to Flame attacks and make sure you have something on hand to get rid of the Burns or your tree will quickly go up in smoke..
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on September 14, 2013, 05:58:01 pm
Good thing Druid is trained in Water school magic to put out those fires!  ;)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on September 14, 2013, 06:20:17 pm
Good thing Druid is trained in Water school magic to put out those fires!  ;)
They have Hydro immunity as a trait, therefore no way to target them to get the extinguish effect from Hydro.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Moonglow on September 14, 2013, 07:23:45 pm
Yeah its that point that seems harder than expected, fire vulnerability and hydro immunity reduces the approaches for putting out the fires.  seems a double whammy.

Good thing Druid is trained in Water school magic to put out those fires!  ;)
They have Hydro immunity as a trait, therefore no way to target them to get the extinguish effect from Hydro.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DarthDadaD20 on September 14, 2013, 07:59:16 pm
"When nature has work to be done, she creates a genius to do it."-Ralph Waldo Emerson
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on September 15, 2013, 02:41:14 pm
hmm good point, sorry didn't think of that.

You would think if hydro immune a water spell would just not do damage but give the extinguish benefit.

Water should just wash over it and put out the fire.

So umm ya vulnerable to fire and immune to water that can help it put out the fire.  That is a bad combo.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on September 15, 2013, 02:49:28 pm
It seems like water -2 would have been sufficient anyway from a thematic perspective... It is a little puzzling that we ended up with this combo.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DarthDadaD20 on September 15, 2013, 03:00:43 pm
hmm good point, sorry didn't think of that.

You would think if hydro immune a water spell would just not do damage but give the extinguish benefit.

Water should just wash over it and put out the fire.

So umm ya vulnerable to fire and immune to water that can help it put out the fire.  That is a bad combo.

Its not as bad as you may think...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on September 15, 2013, 07:20:35 pm
I'm sure there's some other spell coming up that's really good at putting out fires, but hydro immunity interacting like this is the first "wait, what? That's not how it should work!" moment in an otherwise immaculately sensible game. There are very few moments of, "my Birds of Paradise is equipped with a Loxadon Warhammer, how!?" The rules almost always conform to theme. That aesthetic is a major selling point of the game.

Anyone who starts the game and sees that plants are vulnerable to fire but immune to water and that Geyser removes Burn tokens, is going to get a mental immage of using a jet of water to put out a burning tree. Cards should do what people think they do.

I'm going to be teaching this game to someone using the base Beastmaster and have to say, "actually, no, you can't save your burning Mana Flower with the Geyser in your book, because technically that plant is immune to water." That's unpleasant.

I mean, this isn't a game balance issue for intermediate level play, if there's some other spell that does the job just as well. It's just a rare rough spot in a game that's usually so slick. I get that it might be too late to solve this elegantly, and that all remaining repair options might be worse than just leaving it alone, but it's hard to imagine that it was intended design that I can't piss on my plants even if they're on fire.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on September 15, 2013, 10:31:28 pm
Well we haven't seen all the cards yet so maybe my comment of "why can't I remove burn counters and put out fires with a water spell that has extinguish on it" is a bit premature.

So there is either another option - or - the Druid and the plant horde is so powerful that it was designed in that way for a balance issue so you can burn down the forest. 

I do put the Renewing Spring card in EVERY spell book I make regardless of what Mage I am playing and the spring can remove burn conditions from water immune mobs so I guess that is one way.  Although difficult since 'most' I'm guessing will be rooted and might not be able to go to the spring to heal/cure themselves.

Regardless it doesn't sour me or turn me off the the Druid.  LOVE the theme of it.  So far (from what I've seen) I'm leaning towards favoring the Druid over the Necro but we shall see.  The both have some fun stuff!  Can't wait.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Moonglow on September 16, 2013, 12:26:52 am
Well we haven't seen all the cards yet so maybe my comment of "why can't I remove burn counters and put out fires with a water spell that has extinguish on it" is a bit premature.

I can't see how seeing more spells will address this.  Its a thematic break as much as a balance one.  I'm sure that there are other mechanics in play to maintain balance. 

There's a quote (from systems theory I think) that once you intervene in a system, the more intervention it requires.  Which becomes a bit of a perpetuating cycle. 

I suspect that as time goes on with more and more additions to the MW package, some to balance earlier concerns, or fit with previous decisions, the more chance there is of a growing inelegance.  Game balance and rule functionality will obviously be the prime focus, but it would be a shame if the underpinning principle that 'things work the way you think they should' gets lost on the way.

Saying that, I think its one point amongst hundreds of cards and dozens of spell types.  Don't let my narrow and pedantic world view detract from the awesomeness of the game and game system.

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Shad0w on September 16, 2013, 08:34:17 am
Well we haven't seen all the cards yet so maybe my comment of "why can't I remove burn counters and put out fires with a water spell that has extinguish on it" is a bit premature.

So there is either another option - or - the Druid and the plant horde is so powerful that it was designed in that way for a balance issue so you can burn down the forest. 

I do put the Renewing Spring card in EVERY spell book I make regardless of what Mage I am playing and the spring can remove burn conditions from water immune mobs so I guess that is one way.  Although difficult since 'most' I'm guessing will be rooted and might not be able to go to the spring to heal/cure themselves.

Regardless it doesn't sour me or turn me off the the Druid.  LOVE the theme of it.  So far (from what I've seen) I'm leaning towards favoring the Druid over the Necro but we shall see.  The both have some fun stuff!  Can't wait.

Burn hurts but can be stopped it does slow down her growth

druid is my favorite
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on September 16, 2013, 10:38:17 am
but it would be a shame if the underpinning principle that 'things work the way you think they should' gets lost on the way.
I have had a bit of a time with this to, until I realized that we are talking about magic pure and simple. Magical immunity is holistic for both the good and the bad. We are talking about magical water and magical fire after all. At that is what I tell myself  ::)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on September 16, 2013, 10:39:22 am
(https://fbcdn-photos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1234543_572954276074002_1625079739_n.png)from Facebook
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DarthDadaD20 on September 16, 2013, 11:10:32 am
Very useful card in the Druids arsonal- Not your average spawn point-

Cheap spawnpoint-3mana! Has lower life...but it can regenerate! It can spawn creatures or conjurations- It itself has the vine subtype. These (And what come out of them) can come out of nowhere! If you don't keep your eye on the druid- nature will reclaim its throne.

Works great with the tree that was spoiled!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Shad0w on September 16, 2013, 11:14:04 am
It is a game changer once you learn to play the druid
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on September 16, 2013, 11:20:22 am
So let me see if I've got this right:
First turn, Samara Tree with Treebond.
Second turn (and every following turn), Samara Tree spawns a Seed Pod, costs Druid 2 mana.
Third turn, Seed Pod adds one mana.
Fourth turn, Seed Pod adds one mana.
Fifth turn, Seed Pod adds one mana, and can cast a plant creature or conjuration.

On Fifth turn, there will be up to four Seed Pods, with 3, 2, 1 and 0 mana on them.
Treebond has generated 5 mana. The 3 mana Seed Pod is available for use, which will destroy it.

This cost 8 for the Tree, and 2 for each pod = 16 mana. It cost 1 action.
It has generated 8 mana and one extra action available 5th turn. It breaks even, mostly.

After 5th turn, this arrangement generates one extra action each turn. It costs two mana, but generates 1 from treebond and 3 from the maturing Pod, for a net gain of 2 mana. Of course, Druid starts 1 channeling in the hole compared to other casters (9 channeling, no melee bonus), so lets count this as 1 mana. And, when it's important, she can stop casting new Seed Pods to gain "extra" mana instead.

So, to sum up, 8 mana for a Full Action Spawnpoint and +1 channeling, but it doesn't do anything for the first 4 turns. It's potentailly the best spawn point ever printed, but you're gonna have to work for it.

Interesting. Better than it looks, but dangerously vulnerable to Warlock and Fire Wizard? That 5 turn tactical delay is potentially dooming against a rush.

People have been calling Seedling Pod a spawnpoint, and I don't think so. It doesn't really do any better than breaking even. It costs one action and it generates one action. It costs 2 or 3 mana, and it generates 3 mana. It seems like the timer mechanism for the real spawnpoint, Samara Tree.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on September 16, 2013, 11:27:16 am
Wow synergistic Spawnpoints! The Samara Tree spawnpoint casts the Seedling Point spawnpoint, which in turn casts a creature or conjuration and since it is now a Cantrip the Seedling Pod goes back in your book.

Just thinking down these paths has my brain marveling at the creators of this expansion.

Brian, Brain Just what are think you're doing Brian? (said in my best HAL 9000 voice)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on September 16, 2013, 11:41:44 am
So let me see if I've got this right:
First turn, Samara Tree with Treebond.
Second turn (and every following turn), Samara Tree spawns a Seed Pod, costs Druid 2 mana.
Treebond is not an action, so why not also Harmonize the Tree?

- Second turn (and every following turn), Samara Tree spawns a Seed Pod, costs Druid 1 mana.

Seems very well worth it. The other very interesting fact is that Seedling Pod is not a Zone Exclusive so you could have a couple in the same zone making it easier to protect.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on September 16, 2013, 11:44:47 am
Wow this looks awesome.  ;D

Even if it does get torched or weed whacked before it can spawn anything at the very least for only 3 mana it could eat an attack from a creature, that would otherwise be at you or one of your creatures.

Cantrip will help with the spellbook points (even though this is lvl 1).

I presume rules printed on the card override other rules correct?

So even though normally a vine card (which this is) can usually cast vine spells (which this could cast) can "normally" cast those spells in any zone with a Vine Marker this one can't destroy vine markers to extend it's reach because it specifies otherwise on the card itself?  Makes sense since the pod is rooted to the ground so it would spawn from that and not elsewhere, just wanted to clarify since Vine Marker rules contridict the rules for this vine spell.  (Which is totally fine IMO, again just asking).
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 16, 2013, 11:49:46 am
Well...now we know what the Seedling Pod is.  It's not a trait, it's an actual card.  Hmmm, so the Samara tree spawnpoint is used for spawning these things only, which in turn can spawn other plants at the cost of destroying itself.  Not sure how I feel about this yet.  I see the design concept here, its the whole "spreading plants" thing.  But I'm not sure how well it will actually work.  First impressions to follow...

1.  I'm not sure how much I like the idea of a spawnpoint (the Samara tree) spawning a specific card, as opposed to a certain type of creature.  Too one dimensional for my tastes, but I'll give it a try.

2.  Seedling Pods seem like they will be a bit slow.  These cards are too fragile to waste a Harmonize on and they have no innate way to generate additional mana like other spawnpoints so they will take a full three turns before they are ready to function...plenty of time for someone to destroy them, which brings me to...

3.  They are really fragile.  5 health and Flame +2 means these things will die in droves to the Warlock and/or a Fire Wizard.  I have images of Firebrand Imps and Flaming Hellions merrily skipping around the board and burning the arena to ash.  They will have the Cantrip trait if you have Samara out, which is something I guess, but you'll need to keep casting them, which brings me to...

4.  They are cheap, which is a bit of a saving grace.  But are they cheap enough considering how fragile they are?  I'm not sure.  The Samara tree will pay for 1 mana, but the Druid will still be coughing up 2 if she wants to play them as fast as possible.  Then the Seedlings will take three turns before they do anything... 

5.  They are Vines so they can be used in conjunction with the Druid's Spreading Vines ability.  That's a big plus.
   
So, the question is, can the Druid overgrow the arena with enough targets to the point that the opponent has too many targets to kill them all so they just keep spreading and spreading?  Obviously that's the design idea, but we'll have to see how it works in actual play.

Hopefully the Druid will have some way to combat Warlocks and Fire Wizards, otherwise they just seem like they will be facerolled hard.  I'm sure there is something to do it, it HAD to come up in playtesting, we'll just have to see what it is. 

Also, hopefully there will be some unique Druid items and/or Incantations that allow these plants to grow faster, or produce mana faster, or whatever.  I'm sure there will be.

Can't wait to see what else the Druid has because she seems really interesting and fun.  I'm sure most of our fears will be put to rest once we see the rest of the set, or at least I hope so ;)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Shad0w on September 16, 2013, 12:00:31 pm
Remember:

the druids card says if you or an object you control cats a vine spell. So yes if you break the pod you could summon the plant creature (must be a vine subtype) to a different zone that has a vine marker and btw wait till you see the other trees.  8) :P
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on September 16, 2013, 12:02:01 pm
Sweeping is now better.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 16, 2013, 12:09:06 pm
Actually Shadow, the pod can't use vine markers to extend its range. This is in the final printing and will be in the faq.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 16, 2013, 12:14:56 pm
Actually Shadow, the pod can't use vine markers to extend its range. This is in the final printing and will be in the faq.

Last minute nerf?

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on September 16, 2013, 12:26:52 pm
:/
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Shad0w on September 16, 2013, 12:40:26 pm
Actually Shadow, the pod can't use vine markers to extend its range. This is in the final printing and will be in the faq.

:/

:/
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Shad0w on September 16, 2013, 12:41:21 pm
Actually Shadow, the pod can't use vine markers to extend its range. This is in the final printing and will be in the faq.

Last minute nerf?

Guess so. Either way it is still good
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Shad0w on September 16, 2013, 12:48:15 pm
@Laddin I guess that will be we will have to see how it plays out.  8)


IMO I do not think this clause is needed but Bryan does have the final say.


Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on September 16, 2013, 12:56:18 pm
It's still very good and makes sense.  The item is coming out of the pod itself, not being spread via vines.

So the pod can be spread at increased range, just not the creature/conjuration coming out of it.  So indirectly vines still work for the end spawn point.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Shad0w on September 16, 2013, 01:00:36 pm
It's still very good and makes sense.  The item is coming out of the pod itself, not being spread via vines.

So the pod can be spread at increased range, just not the creature/conjuration coming out of it.  So indirectly vines still work for the end spawn point.

See i always thought of the pods as spore throwers. Not that the creature was summoning from.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on September 16, 2013, 01:14:43 pm
And I think of the tree as the "spore thrower" so it made sense (to me) that the TREE could have extended range but not the pod itself.

I like it either way.  It's clever and a different mechanic that is unique.  I like that they are still coming up with very NEW things and not just variations on things that already exist.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 16, 2013, 01:17:38 pm
I can see that, but i know Bryan planned for the pods to sprout into the spell. Oddly this was how I had always played them. Even then they are amazing.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DarthDadaD20 on September 16, 2013, 01:36:17 pm
I can see what happened.....

I have always played them as intended.

And they are amazing is right! Love them little buggers!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on September 16, 2013, 02:04:18 pm
Now what they need to add is an animal/insect Familiar that can cast flowers/seedlings etc as a way to sort of speed up the process and proliferate/multiply faster.

Bee
Animal/Insect
Nature Level 1
Mana cost 5
Mana Regen 1
Armor 0
Life 5
Flying

Quick Attack - Sting
2 damage +1 piecing (8+ Adds 1 Poison counter)

Full Action - Pollenate
This action allows the familiar to cast a Seedling Pod spell.
** maybe add other flower/vine etc spells I'm not sure, at least seedlings though.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Shad0w on September 16, 2013, 02:09:37 pm
@Laddin that is why I never complained about the wording. I used them as worded so I never saw it as an issue.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 16, 2013, 02:49:53 pm
@Shadow, thats fair

@stormmaster, i love bugs too...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on September 16, 2013, 03:17:34 pm
So we have seen todays bonus spoiler, I am anticipating todays #7 Spoiler!!!! Yee Haw!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 16, 2013, 03:28:27 pm
So we have seen todays bonus spoiler, I am anticipating todays #7 Spoiler!!!! Yee Haw!

That was a bonus?  I thought it was the "spoiler for the day"...

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on September 16, 2013, 03:30:48 pm
So we have seen todays bonus spoiler, I am anticipating todays #7 Spoiler!!!! Yee Haw!

That was a bonus?  I thought it was the "spoiler for the day"...

On FB - SPOILER BONUS - Seedling Pod

I could be wrong, but typically Bonus is a add on / spiff /extra of something or some object (like spoilers) >:)

Yes you wouldn't be the first to call me greedy ;)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 16, 2013, 03:43:37 pm
Sweet, I hadn't been able to view it on FB yet so I didn't see the "bonus" part.  Let's hope we get another then :)

And yeah, I'm greedy too ;)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: isel on September 17, 2013, 07:48:25 am
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1231532_573141972721899_310486755_n.png)

I love this card, you recover mana!!

Burnproof and lighting inmunity, very very difficult to destroy it!!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on September 17, 2013, 08:20:03 am
Wow very cool.  So since it says "a creature" that is any creature including your own?  So you could sacrifice your own creature (using the Altar to destroy it) and that would increase melee and increase mana at the same time?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 17, 2013, 08:49:11 am
This is a spawnpoint I can get excited about :)  Very cool.  I'd already said in a couple of other threads that I figured the Necro would be able to make use of the Sacrificial Altar and this is just one of several ways I'm sure he will be able to do so.

The wording on this card is...very strange.  If the intent is just that you can only gain mana once per turn, why not just say: "Once per round, after a creature is destroyed, gain mana equal to its level"?  Wouldn't that be clean and unambiguous?  But the current wording is muddy and makes it sound like you can gain mana from each creature that dies, but only upon its first death in the round.  If the intent is the former, then the wording is very poorly done.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Shad0w on September 17, 2013, 09:08:55 am
This is a spawnpoint I can get excited about :)  Very cool.  I'd already said in a couple of other threads that I figured the Necro would be able to make use of the Sacrificial Altar and this is just one of several ways I'm sure he will be able to do so.

The wording on this card is...very strange.  If the intent is just that you can only gain mana once per turn, why not just say: "Once per round, after a creature is destroyed, gain mana equal to its level"?  Wouldn't that be clean and unambiguous?  But the current wording is muddy and makes it sound like you can gain mana from each creature that dies, but only upon its first death in the round.  If the intent is the former, then the wording is very poorly done.

I understand that but some of us got out voted :P
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on September 17, 2013, 09:12:41 am
The wording on this card is...very strange.  If the intent is just that you can only gain mana once per turn, why not just say: "Once per round, after a creature is destroyed, gain mana equal to its level"?  Wouldn't that be clean and unambiguous?  But the current wording is muddy and makes it sound like you can gain mana from each creature that dies, but only upon its first death in the round.  If the intent is the former, then the wording is very poorly done.

I believe the meaning is "Once per round, the first time a creature is destroyed". So sequencing your targets in a zone attack is crucial.

Although it could be read as a reference to not counting creatures destroyed a second time, e.g. reanimates via Ziggurat of Undeath, Animate Dead and other means. I totally agree it's clumsy wording that needs FAQ clarity from the start. I hope it's not final print.

Even with the first death interpretation, I'm with you about getting excited on this spawnpoint. I like how they have brought Sacrificial Altar into the game with the semi-recursive sacrifice mechanic.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 17, 2013, 09:16:03 am
This is a spawnpoint I can get excited about :)  Very cool.  I'd already said in a couple of other threads that I figured the Necro would be able to make use of the Sacrificial Altar and this is just one of several ways I'm sure he will be able to do so.

The wording on this card is...very strange.  If the intent is just that you can only gain mana once per turn, why not just say: "Once per round, after a creature is destroyed, gain mana equal to its level"?  Wouldn't that be clean and unambiguous?  But the current wording is muddy and makes it sound like you can gain mana from each creature that dies, but only upon its first death in the round.  If the intent is the former, then the wording is very poorly done.

I understand that but some of us got out voted :P

I'm just not sure what issue they were trying to address that created the need for such awkward phrasing.  The example I used as a way to say the same thing doesn't seem prone to any sort of abuse and is clear in its intent.  Stuff like this makes me scratch my head.

Regardless, I like this spawnpoint.  Even though the mana generation isn't as good as say Gate to Voltari, its still pretty good and I'm sure it can be tricked out with things like Sacrificial Altar.  Obviously the Necro is going to be another swarm based mage, and this seems like a cool way to do a swarm based spawnpoint.   
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 17, 2013, 09:22:25 am
The Idea was that if we simply said "once per turn" then you could wait and pick the most advantageous time to trigger it. We wanted you to have to work to trigger it. It only goes off once a turn and only on the first kill of a given turn. So, you have to work with your timing to try to get more than one or two mana on it.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 17, 2013, 09:27:15 am
The wording on this card is...very strange.  If the intent is just that you can only gain mana once per turn, why not just say: "Once per round, after a creature is destroyed, gain mana equal to its level"?  Wouldn't that be clean and unambiguous?  But the current wording is muddy and makes it sound like you can gain mana from each creature that dies, but only upon its first death in the round.  If the intent is the former, then the wording is very poorly done.

I believe the meaning is "Once per round, the first time a creature is destroyed". So sequencing your targets in a zone attack is crucial.

Although it could be read as a reference to not counting creatures destroyed a second time, e.g. reanimates via Ziggurat of Undeath, Animate Dead and other means. I totally agree it's clumsy wording that needs FAQ clarity from the start. I hope it's not final print.

Even with the first death interpretation, I'm with you about getting excited on this spawnpoint. I like how they have brought Sacrificial Altar into the game with the semi-recursive sacrifice mechanic.

Ah, that's a good point.  If they wanted to specify that it has to be the frist creature that dies in a round, then I could see how they might have come up with some awkward wording.  Still, it seems overly clunky if that's what they are trying to convey.  Why not just say: "You may place mana on Graveyard equal to the level of the first creature killed each round"?  That was just off the top of my head, but it still seems cleaner than what is on the card, and I'm sure that with a little thought even better text could be put together.

Eh, it is what it is.  It still seems like a cool spawnpoint and I like how tough it is and I like the synergy with Sacrificial Altar which has been a coaster since the Core Set's release. 
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on September 17, 2013, 09:34:08 am
"whelp, this is the first time this turn my Eternal Servant has died, guess I should add the mana."

Normally the wording would be clear, but undeath–like time travel–requires extra grammatical precision.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on September 17, 2013, 09:48:07 am
Yes I could see it meaning both depending on interpretation.  Especially since creatures could be destroyed more than once per round.

So when it says "When a creature is destroyed the first time each round"
it could mean:
A. each time a creature is destroyed you get mana but only the 1st time a creature is destroyed
B. the 1st time a creature dies once per round you gain mana

If it is B then it seems specifying the order of events first (being the first time a creature is destroyed) would have made more intuitive wording.  "Once per round when the first creature is destroyed you gain mana."

If it is A and you do get mana the first time each creature is destroyed (and not the 2nd time it is destroyed if you destroy the same creature twice) then it makes sense as is.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: jacksmack on September 17, 2013, 09:55:41 am
The Idea was that if we simply said "once per turn" then you could wait and pick the most advantageous time to trigger it. We wanted you to have to work to trigger it. It only goes off once a turn and only on the first kill of a given turn. So, you have to work with your timing to try to get more than one or two mana on it.

So whats wrong with:

"the first time each round a creature is destroyed place mana X mana on graveyard.
X = the level of the destroyed creature."
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 17, 2013, 10:04:10 am
The Idea was that if we simply said "once per turn" then you could wait and pick the most advantageous time to trigger it. We wanted you to have to work to trigger it. It only goes off once a turn and only on the first kill of a given turn. So, you have to work with your timing to try to get more than one or two mana on it.

So whats wrong with:

"the first time each round a creature is destroyed place mana X mana on graveyard.
X = the level of the destroyed creature."


That text can end up with the same ambiguity that people are finding with the current text. The FAQ will clearly outline how Graveyard is supposed to work. I'm sorry the wording didn't come across as clearly as we thought it would.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on September 17, 2013, 10:14:36 am
"whelp, this is the first time this turn my Eternal Servant has died, guess I should add the mana."

Normally the wording would be clear, but undeath–like time travel–requires extra grammatical precision.
[Like]

Visions of a hooded skeletal rules lawyer waving his bony finger in admonishment...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on September 17, 2013, 10:36:36 am
Honestly, I caught the intent right off the bat, to the point of thinking if I was the necro's opponent and had a Level 1 and a Level 4 creatures that I was quite sure was going to die during the round, I would consider killing my level 1 (attack a guard, or mage with a damage barrier, or creature with the counterstrike trait) first to deny the neco the 4 mana.  As I stated earlier healing is going to be important against the Necro. Deathlock might come out mid-game as a result.

Reading the wording again I can easily see the confusion though.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on September 17, 2013, 04:12:54 pm
Honestly, I caught the intent right off the bat, to the point of thinking if I was the necro's opponent and had a Level 1 and a Level 4 creatures that I was quite sure was going to die during the round, I would consider killing my level 1 (attack a guard, or mage with a damage barrier, or creature with the counterstrike trait) first to deny the neco the 4 mana.  As I stated earlier healing is going to be important against the Necro. Deathlock might come out mid-game as a result.

Reading the wording again I can easily see the confusion though.

Well if you did that, then the Graveyard would be conferring another more subtle benefit, would it not?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on September 17, 2013, 05:28:51 pm
Honestly, I caught the intent right off the bat, to the point of thinking if I was the necro's opponent and had a Level 1 and a Level 4 creatures that I was quite sure was going to die during the round, I would consider killing my level 1 (attack a guard, or mage with a damage barrier, or creature with the counterstrike trait) first to deny the neco the 4 mana.  As I stated earlier healing is going to be important against the Necro. Deathlock might come out mid-game as a result.

Reading the wording again I can easily see the confusion though.

Well if you did that, then the Graveyard would be conferring another more subtle benefit, would it not?

The beautiful thing about the Necro is that even if I did mange to kill my creature he might just be able to raise it back up and turn it on me any how. Yes there are many many things that are subtle about this most lovely of games :)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 18, 2013, 03:31:16 pm
Was there a spoiler today?  Don't have access to FB at work...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: lettucemode on September 18, 2013, 03:34:10 pm
Nope, not yet anyway.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Doma0997 on September 18, 2013, 03:45:01 pm
Been checking every 20. haven't seen one yet.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on September 18, 2013, 04:39:53 pm
For the Graveyard when it says "Burnproof" since that isn't Fire Immunity that means you can still attack it with Fireballs, Flameblast or any other Fire attack but you just can't put Burn tokens on it?  Is that correct?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Altropos on September 18, 2013, 04:44:01 pm
For the Graveyard when it says "Burnproof" since that isn't Fire Immunity that means you can still attack it with Fireballs, Flameblast or any other Fire attack but you just can't put Burn tokens on it?  Is that correct?

Yes
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on September 18, 2013, 04:50:45 pm
Burnproof
Cannot gain the Burn condition. May be vulnerable to flame damage, but
cannot “burn”. All Incorporeal objects are Burnproof.

Got to love that codex ;)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 18, 2013, 08:18:01 pm
Hopefully the article comes up soon, but there should be a preview for the card who's flavor text was spoiled yesterday. I realize it wasn't up when I checked a couple moments ago.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on September 18, 2013, 08:35:54 pm
Getting later and later each night :)

Must me for us Night Owls....
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 18, 2013, 08:43:30 pm
Clearly Necromancer Previews have to wait till the sun is down across the entire country. Light is the bane of his evil existence.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on September 18, 2013, 09:01:32 pm
He must fear the House of the Rising Sun.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on September 19, 2013, 07:59:05 am
I just realized I missed Wednesday's spoiler!  And now I can't check FaceBook at work.  Can someone say what it is without a link to Facebook please.  Copy/paste in a picture would be awesomeness.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: jacksmack on September 19, 2013, 08:08:58 am
You have seen the graveyard right?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: isel on September 19, 2013, 08:40:00 am
(https://scontent-b-mad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/995472_573946585974771_1869820581_n.png)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: lettucemode on September 19, 2013, 09:31:17 am
I'm pretty new to the game, but that seems ridiculously efficient for 13 mana. 5 attack, defense roll, psychic immunity, doesn't have Lumbering like other undead we've seen...compare that to the Dire Wolf or Bridge Troll. But at least it's nonliving so you can't heal it?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: darkfonix on September 19, 2013, 09:36:16 am
You can't heal it with "healing"... But the dark cleric can "heal" him for 2 points each turn!

I Love this boy :D
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on September 19, 2013, 09:39:29 am
I'm pretty new to the game, but that seems ridiculously efficient for 13 mana. 5 attack, defense roll, psychic immunity, doesn't have Lumbering like other undead we've seen...compare that to the Dire Wolf or Bridge Troll. But at least it's nonliving so you can't heal it?

You are correct lettuce this Knight cannot be healed.

Nonliving = All Nonliving objects have the Poison Immunity and Finite Life traits.

Finite Life = This creature cannot heal, regenerate, or gain life.  All Nonliving objects have Finite Life.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: jacksmack on September 19, 2013, 09:40:04 am
I'm pretty new to the game, but that seems ridiculously efficient for 13 mana. 5 attack, defense roll, psychic immunity, doesn't have Lumbering like other undead we've seen...compare that to the Dire Wolf or Bridge Troll. But at least it's nonliving so you can't heal it?

eh... it seems pretty spot on to me?

Do you consider Knights of westlocks to be ridiculously efficient as well?

Remember nonliving shuts down most enchantment buffs like bearstrength and falcon precision.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on September 19, 2013, 09:43:42 am
I'm pretty new to the game, but that seems ridiculously efficient for 13 mana. 5 attack, defense roll, psychic immunity, doesn't have Lumbering like other undead we've seen...compare that to the Dire Wolf or Bridge Troll. But at least it's nonliving so you can't heal it?

Seems pretty in line with things. It's closest living analog is a Knight of Westlock. Let's compare:

                       Westlock    vs.    Skeletal:
Cost                13 mana            13mana
Level               Holy 3                Dark 3
Armor             3                        1
Health             10                      12
Defense           8+ 1x                8+ 1x
Attack              5QM                   5QM
Special          Lightning +2        Non-Living, Pyschic Immunity
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on September 19, 2013, 09:45:43 am
Actually, yeah, Knight of Westlock is pretty great. If Priestess could support it in-school with anything but healing it'd be fairly dangerous. That's the thing that makes this guy impressive: combos with Necromancer.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on September 19, 2013, 09:56:21 am
Actually, yeah, Knight of Westlock is pretty great. If Priestess could support it in-school with anything but healing it'd be fairly dangerous. That's the thing that makes this guy impressive: combos with Necromancer.

Agreed. Westlock is a powerhouse. Whether avenging with a Guardian Angel guarding or guarding a Royal Archer. He used to be our standard Temple of Light guard. So this Knight is what guards your Skeletal Archer? There's a bit too much skeletal symmetry with Holy for my liking.

Also Nonliving isn't that bad. Ask an Earth Wizard with his 4 Golems, Idol of Pestilence, Deathlock, immunity to many bad enchantments, Wounded Prey etc. However, Etherian Lifetree will hurt Necro bad and light hurts more. I see Nonliving as neutral really, an alternative lifestyle choice and a different way of building, as you don't go down the buff enchants route but spend elsewhere.

On the subject of symmetry. wouldn't it be great if there were a "Cunning Devil" who, instead of the Guardian Angel's selfless Intercept, his ability was to divert attacks on him to another (maybe lower level) ally in his zone?

I really like the zombie and plant stuff because it was new. The skeletons so far we've seen before, in the flesh so to speak.

Seems at least 2 Necro strategies: recursive zombie weenies and skeleton elites.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Stormmaster on September 19, 2013, 09:57:35 am
Since it is a "skeleton" is there any new incantations that let's skeletons "reassemble" or some such that would kind of get around the no gaining life rule of the non living?  Can you reassemble skeletons?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on September 19, 2013, 10:06:56 am
If you want to compare him to the other skeleton we've got right now: the Skeletal Sentry. The Skeletal Knight for 5 more mana and 1 more book point has: +1armor, +1health, +1melee, and the 8+ single use defense.... and I guess Soldier too. Though synergizing with Warlord hardly seems like an advantage at this point, I guess it does increase the fun options for building functioning theme decks with him and Commands don't have the issues that nature enchantment buffs do. They target Corporeal Creatures generally instead of Living Creatures.

Since it is a "skeleton" is there any new incantations that let's skeletons "reassemble" or some such that would kind of get around the no gaining life rule of the non living?  Can you reassemble skeletons?

The Bog Acolyte can heal him.
 
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: baronzaltor on September 19, 2013, 10:16:34 am
A Knight of Westlock has access to buffs that Skeletal Knight does not.

Things like Bear Strength, Cheetah Speed, Regrowth, (basically all the nature enchantments), Divine Protection, Sacred Ground, Crown of Protection and Hand of Bim Shalla all require a "Living Creatures" to benefit.

Non-Living Creatures have fewer options for buffs (such as Sacrificial Altar and Charge.)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: lettucemode on September 19, 2013, 10:23:25 am
Thanks for the replies guys. I've only seen the Knight of Westlock like once in my games so I didn't think about him. I also forgot that stuff like Bear Strength is living creature only! My concerns are no more.

I really like the zombie and plant stuff because it was new.

Oh my gosh...I just realized...this expansion is basically Plants vs. Zombies.  :o
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 19, 2013, 11:24:21 am
The Skeletal Knight is pretty solid and worthy of play, if a bit uninspiring (nothing new to see here really).  Cool art too
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 20, 2013, 01:57:45 pm
Any chance we'll get to see the Necro ability card spoiled today?  Pretty please?   :)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on September 20, 2013, 02:26:10 pm
Spoiler #9
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: mitkosim on September 20, 2013, 02:54:22 pm
Man, between the Ziggurat, Rise Again and Animate Dead there are a lot of ways to Reanimate a creature. They are basically releasing Minor Heal, Healing Charm, and Renewing Spring all in the same set, which I find to be a bit of overkill - I hope the Necro has some options up his sleeve other than Reanimation :-\
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: isel on September 20, 2013, 04:28:34 pm
(https://scontent-b-mad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/942746_574657245903705_23361647_n.png)

it´s a CURSE, im scared with warlock
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: fas723 on September 20, 2013, 05:34:13 pm
I hope you get control over opponents creatures when they are rised...but the card doesn't say that unfortunatly...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: baronzaltor on September 20, 2013, 06:05:16 pm
I hope you get control over opponents creatures when they are rised...but the card doesn't say that unfortunatly...

Its covered in the Reanimate keyword.

Reanimate (Effect)
This creature reanimates upon death. If this creature is destroyed, it is moved from the discard pile to the zone it was just destroyed in,
and placed face down in that zone, with a face-down action marker
on it. This creature is considered temporarily out of play. At the end of the round, the creature card is flipped face up and is Summoned
into play. Reanimate does not occur if the creature is removed from the game when it is destroyed. See “Obliterate.”

So, since "you" (the caster) are performing the Reanimating , the creature is re-summoned as if it was yours.   

So you can use this card to steal an opposing creature you kill, or can use it on a friendly creature to zombify it after its death.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: aquestrion on September 20, 2013, 07:43:56 pm
Dark mage ressurection
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on September 20, 2013, 08:15:14 pm
This is it right here! The card I've been waiting for that works with the Warlock to add another dimension to his play options. Drop this curse on a creature use Morlocks Torment to speed it's demise then raise it from the dead, potentially recycling the curse to be used again.

I'm curious though if ring of curses will be able to function in any way with this card as it has a 0 mana reveal cost?

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: baronzaltor on September 20, 2013, 08:45:09 pm
This is it right here! The card I've been waiting for that works with the Warlock to add another dimension to his play options. Drop this curse on a creature use Morlocks Torment to speed it's demise then raise it from the dead, potentially recycling the curse to be used again.

I'm curious though if ring of curses will be able to function in any way with this card as it has a 0 mana reveal cost?

As far as I know Ring of Curses doesn't help it.

RoC only reduces the mana cost of casting/revealing Curses..(Enchantments only get the cost when revealed which is already 0.  )
The payment for the Resurrect function is separate from the cast/reveal aspects.  You could reveal it for 0 mana several rounds before the actual death of the creature would trigger the reanimation cost for example.

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: lil_drag_n on September 21, 2013, 08:15:00 am
It says non epic creature, i quest that includes legendary creature :'(
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: lil_drag_n on September 21, 2013, 08:24:52 am
Oh,.. what about pets, holy avenger and blood reapers.  Wait, i think they are considered epic now.  But can you reanimate them as a regular creature.  The advantage is they are already in position?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on September 21, 2013, 09:56:10 am
When the creature dies the pet marker should fall off.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: lil_drag_n on September 21, 2013, 12:41:25 pm
Am i right to guess u can not reanimate legendary creatures?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 21, 2013, 12:42:29 pm
You can reanimate legendary creatures, as long as they are not epic.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on September 21, 2013, 02:00:49 pm
One problem with Reanimate is keeping that mana spare, just in case, will slow tempo? And Slow is so debilitating for a normal creature (and a Reanimated Slow creature starts Stunned).

This can be useful on a ranged piece like your own Flaming Hellion or Acolyte of the Bog Queen where Slow does not become an issue.

Curse Warlock already plays Enchanter's Ring as it plays Enchantment Transfusion for multiple free action curses when in range plus avoid Magebind and Nullify (clarified in a rules thread). So castiing this on your creatures as an insurance policy will only cost you 1.

It's 3 spell points though, a hefty price! Can't see more than 1 copy ever played, better off with the Ziggurat. It feels like a recursive sacrifice combo piece (with curse weaving) and we haven't seen all the pieces yet. Except Reanimates get Obliterated so only semi-recursive. Just not excited by it with current card knowledge.

One good thing about nonliving objects is that they now have their own healing keyword, Reconstruct. So that starting damage could be healed by other means.

I wonder how it interacts with Sectarus... Do I get to cast it same time as dealing damage? It would be great if it did but I doubt it sadly.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: baronzaltor on September 21, 2013, 03:27:55 pm
You can reanimate legendary creatures, as long as they are not epic.

And so long as a Mage/School Restriction wouldn't prevent  control said creature.
Cannot make a Zombie Huugin, Thorg, etc.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 21, 2013, 03:47:00 pm
You can reanimate legendary creatures, as long as they are not epic.

And so long as a Mage/School Restriction wouldn't prevent  control said creature.
Cannot make a Zombie Huugin, Thorg, etc.

QFT
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: aquestrion on September 21, 2013, 03:58:46 pm
If u zombiefy a fast creature is it now normal speed?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: baronzaltor on September 21, 2013, 05:53:37 pm
Yes.  Slow and Fast still counter each other as normal.

You could also cast Charge on a slow zombified creature to help scoot it along too.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 24, 2013, 11:39:45 am
Can we get the rest of the Necro spoiler please?  Not to sound rude, but the teasing is getting a bit old... ;)

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 24, 2013, 12:13:30 pm
The ability card is up but I can't link it here.  First impression is that I'm not overwhelmed.  He seems decent, but it really depends on a few factors that we don't know about yet.  For instance, on his Eternal Servant ability, do you have to take a full action to resummon the creature?  If so, its not that impressive.  Saves you on spellbook points and that's about it, although it does give a creature Piercing +1 for free, which is decent. 

As for the Plague Master, it says creatures with a "Poison counter".  So...that means Cripple, Tainted, and Weak and that's it?  A bit limited if so.  It should have been able to be triggered off of Poison Enchantments too, and it kind of irks me that it doesn't.

Poison immunity is nice though.

All in all he seems pretty cool, but not quite as exciting as I had hoped.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: lettucemode on September 24, 2013, 12:26:39 pm
I'm pretty sure Reanimating something is a free action. You pay half its mana cost rounded up, then it goes out of play until the next round, when it comes in with some damage on it. So the Eternal Servant marker means that you can endlessly reanimate the same creature for the entire game, and if your opponent kills it it's only out of play until the next round. Pretty cool.

The marker thing is weird, agree with you there. Especially if Rot and Corrode aren't poison conditions. But there will probably be lots of new cards that haven't been spoiled yet that will use those markers.

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 24, 2013, 12:29:31 pm
I'm pretty sure Reanimating something is a free action. You pay half its mana cost rounded up, then it goes out of play until the next round, when it comes in with some damage on it. So the Eternal Servant marker means that you can endlessly reanimate the same creature for the entire game, and if your opponent kills it it's only out of play until the next round. Pretty cool.

The marker thing is weird, agree with you there. Especially if Rot and Corrode aren't poison conditions. But there will probably be lots of new cards that haven't been spoiled yet that will use those markers.

Oh, Rot is a Poison marker for sure, I just forgot about that one.  Still, it should have worked with Poison Enchantments too just to free up more flexibility in build options.

As for the Reanimation, the ability card says you have to pay full mana cost for the creature, not half.  If it's a free action, that will make it much better, but if its a full action to resummon, then it is just ok.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 24, 2013, 12:35:36 pm
When your servant dies if you pay it's cost, then you get to reanimate it. This means it comes back into play at the end of the round. This absolutely saves you the full action it would normally take to play it.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: lettucemode on September 24, 2013, 12:37:44 pm
As for the Reanimation, the ability card says you have to pay full mana cost for the creature, not half.  If it's a free action, that will make it much better, but if its a full action to resummon, then it is just ok.

Good catch. I thought that paying half cost rounded up was part of the reanimate keyword. hwhoops
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 24, 2013, 12:51:02 pm
Reanimate simply covers summoning the creature at the end of the round and where they end up. Costs associated are part of the cards that actually cause the reanimate. Another great part of the Necro card is it reanimates without giving it a zombie marker. So you can keep doing it as long as you have mana.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on September 24, 2013, 01:04:21 pm
While certainly less exciting then the Druid character card, poison immunity is huge if your opponent isn't playing Iron Golems. I mean think about all the poison cards that will now see a lot more play. Poison Gas Cloud, Malacoda (as an eternal servant), Idol of Pestilence. If you are able to hit someone with all three at the same time that's 5 points of direct poison damage, if you have managed to hit them with some sort of poison counter as well make it 6 for one more mana. The Necromancer is clearly the king of direct damage he can even leverage Morlock's Torment for a potential 7 direct damage in one turn.

This even combos well with graveyard paying you back for the extra points of direct damage that you choose to pay for to kill creatures during upkeep.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: aquestrion on September 24, 2013, 01:18:26 pm
Is malacoda undead I thought he was a demon
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 24, 2013, 01:30:07 pm
Yea Malacoda is a demon, but he also has poison immunity. So, he combos a lot with the poison cards that the necro wants to throw out.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: aquestrion on September 24, 2013, 01:32:34 pm
I meant for the eternal servant marker he can't get it right?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: isel on September 24, 2013, 01:45:10 pm
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/531943_576229395746490_81707354_n.png)  (https://scontent-a-mad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/p206x206/1238375_575896715779758_1002020462_n.png)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Doma0997 on September 24, 2013, 01:46:29 pm
Yeah, malacoda can't be a servant because he's not undead and he is legendary.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 24, 2013, 01:50:40 pm
When your servant dies if you pay it's cost, then you get to reanimate it. This means it comes back into play at the end of the round. This absolutely saves you the full action it would normally take to play it.

That's cool then.  Makes it much more solid.   

Overall I had hoped for a little more "wow" factor from the Necro, but it will obviously come down to his support cards to define just how cool he will be.  Still look very forward to trying him out.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: mitkosim on September 24, 2013, 03:30:04 pm

As for the Plague Master, it says creatures with a "Poison counter".  So...that means Cripple, Tainted, and Weak and that's it? 


The grand total of Poison condition counters I am currently aware of is Cripple, Tainted, Weak, Rot, and the Ichthellid Larva from this expansion.

As to the direct damage potential of the Necro - add in a Ghoul Rot, a Force Crush, and a charged Altar of Skulls and you go up to 13 points/round!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: baronzaltor on September 24, 2013, 03:35:18 pm
The Necromancer is clearly the king of direct damage he can even leverage Morlock's Torment for a potential 7 direct damage in one turn.


Moloch's Torment is Warlock only.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 24, 2013, 03:38:35 pm
Hopefully the Necro is getting more ways to inflict poison conditions on things.  We've already seen the Wraith that inflicts Weak, but I'm sure there will be more.  I'd like to see an enchantment that is like "Plague Rot" or something that allows a creature to inflict Rot with it's attacks.  That would be cool.

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 24, 2013, 03:39:43 pm
Wait till you see the rest of the Zombies. I think there are at least a couple you'll be particularly interested in.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 24, 2013, 03:42:43 pm
Wait till you see the rest of the Zombies. I think there are at least a couple you'll be particularly interested in.

Nice!  I was going to say that I was hoping we'd see something like "Plague Zombie".  Can't wait  :)

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: baronzaltor on September 24, 2013, 03:45:23 pm
The Plague Master ability also gives Necromancer more reason to pick Drain Soul over Drain Life.  Its a bit more costly, but puts Taint markers on a target that he can start doing extra damage from.

Another aspect of Poison Immunity is that he is immune to Ghoul Rot and Poison Blood, as well as Taint/Weak/Cripple/Rot effects from opponents. 

Necro vs Necro is kind of funny because both mages and most of the creatures on the table are immune to each others poison effects.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on September 25, 2013, 11:25:51 am
Needs a cheap level 4 to eternally sacrifice to altar feeding graveyard.

Idol of Pestilence, Malaconda, Poisonous Air, assume Plagued is in this set, this Immunity could be sick. Creates a big living vs nonliving schism though in match ups.

Hmmm. Zombie Minions are such good value with Graveyard that from those cards seen only I am definitely favouring the zombie sub deck from both sides.

Show us more! Please?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: lettucemode on September 25, 2013, 01:40:24 pm
Needs a cheap level 4 to eternally sacrifice to altar feeding graveyard.

Holy crap, didn't realize this until just now.

Put out a Sacrificial Altar and summon a nice big creature. Then summon a cheap level 2 creature and make him your eternal servant. Then repeatedly sac the level 2 right after attacking with him to give your big creature +2 melee and piercing every round. Crazy combo!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on September 25, 2013, 04:34:18 pm
Well, it does require re-summoning a 8+ Mana creature each turn. Probably not going to be your primary line of play.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: lettucemode on September 25, 2013, 04:55:25 pm
Probably not going to be your primary line of play.

you don't know me
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on September 25, 2013, 05:07:43 pm
A zombie minion costs 7, less with graveyard. Eternal servant it. Any turn when no creature is gonna feed your graveyard and you really need that 2 extra mana to summon what you want say next deployment, after attacking with it you sac it to altar to give an attack +2 melee +2 piercing and gaining 2 in your graveyard. so you are paying 5 mana of a used and abused creature and a free ready marker action for that timed effect anywhere in the arena like Hand. It ain't broken but it's neat recursion. Especially if he was gonna die soon anyway or you needed to upgrade your servant to the next big thing you summon and needed that mana rebate.

My point was that Necro would love something like

"sacrificial minion", level 4 undead, cheap cost say 7, worse stats than the zombie minion

That is how to abuse the recursive engine!

I would be surprised if eternal servant is not used for recursion shenanigans.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on September 25, 2013, 08:12:29 pm
Going to be a beast to bring down.....
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on September 25, 2013, 08:39:29 pm
Any word on Obliterate yet? Is it too good to hope that it counts as destroying the creature so that graveyard will generate mana from it.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on September 25, 2013, 08:59:01 pm
Any word on Obliterate yet? Is it too good to hope that it counts as destroying the creature so that graveyard will generate mana from it.
My guess is that Aaron Brosman's preview article on this card tomorrow will cover this trait.....least that is what I am hoping.

Think that we will see an Enchantment/Incantation that provides this trait?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: lettucemode on September 25, 2013, 09:30:08 pm
Obliterate is likely very similar to MTG's exile...removing a card from the game completely (doesn't go to discard). This would prevent Obliterated creature cards from being legal targets for Resurrection or Raise Dead. In MTG exiling something doesn't count as destroying it, we'll see if it's the same here.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on September 26, 2013, 12:21:12 am
That's your 8 Mana level 3 creature though, if you want to recur and sacrifice it.
 Oh, wait, no, it's legendary. Hmm. Guess not.


Remind me, growth is +1 heath and +1 Armor?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: aquestrion on September 26, 2013, 01:08:57 am
3 innate life and melee +1
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on September 26, 2013, 01:49:39 am
Guess that is where we feed those cheap level 1 reanimates that are slow and would be obliterated when they die anyway.

Have to say I am loving all the new mechanics and play concepts they are bringing out. We may have seen most of them before in other games but adding the Mage Wars sophistication of positioning, lifetime value and resource management (not just mana and life but also generating various types of actions), they have given these mechanics a new lease of (un)life, a new game setting for gamers to puzzle out.

Bravo to the designers for these zombies and plants. Even acid ball and raptors were inserted as much needed meta changers, the latter boosting Beastmistress hurt by nonliving undead. With skeletons, well you can reconstruct them but otherwise they seem more traditional simulacrums of their holy counterparts which may not seem very original but satisfy the wargamers who don't want clever mechanics to sacrifice to an abstract altar but prefer the classic skeleton army, led by a vampire or demon. The more I see of this set, the more I am impressed by the thought that has gone into it. From someone not afraid to question the game and highlight any areas possibly needing attention, this is looking excellent. Well done to the design team!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: lil_drag_n on September 26, 2013, 06:58:38 am
I wonder how obliterate works with eternal servant? I think Obliterate wins and necro get the eternal servant marker back without reanimating the zombie.  Too bad
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 26, 2013, 08:37:42 am
Guess that is where we feed those cheap level 1 reanimates that are slow and would be obliterated when they die anyway.

Have to say I am loving all the new mechanics and play concepts they are bringing out. We may have seen most of them before in other games but adding the Mage Wars sophistication of positioning, lifetime value and resource management (not just mana and life but also generating various types of actions), they have given these mechanics a new lease of (un)life, a new game setting for gamers to puzzle out.

Bravo to the designers for these zombies and plants. Even acid ball and raptors were inserted as much needed meta changers, the latter boosting Beastmistress hurt by nonliving undead. With skeletons, well you can reconstruct them but otherwise they seem more traditional simulacrums of their holy counterparts which may not seem very original but satisfy the wargamers who don't want clever mechanics to sacrifice to an abstract altar but prefer the classic skeleton army, led by a vampire or demon. The more I see of this set, the more I am impressed by the thought that has gone into it. From someone not afraid to question the game and highlight any areas possibly needing attention, this is looking excellent. Well done to the design team!

WOW, thank you sir! We're very proud of the set we made, and it's awesome to have feedback like this. Thank you so much. We'll continue working hard to improve on the foundation we made.

Thanks everyone!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on September 26, 2013, 08:44:50 am
Guess that is where we feed those cheap level 1 reanimates that are slow and would be obliterated when they die anyway.

Have to say I am loving all the new mechanics and play concepts they are bringing out. We may have seen most of them before in other games but adding the Mage Wars sophistication of positioning, lifetime value and resource management (not just mana and life but also generating various types of actions), they have given these mechanics a new lease of (un)life, a new game setting for gamers to puzzle out.

Bravo to the designers for these zombies and plants. Even acid ball and raptors were inserted as much needed meta changers, the latter boosting Beastmistress hurt by nonliving undead. With skeletons, well you can reconstruct them but otherwise they seem more traditional simulacrums of their holy counterparts which may not seem very original but satisfy the wargamers who don't want clever mechanics to sacrifice to an abstract altar but prefer the classic skeleton army, led by a vampire or demon. The more I see of this set, the more I am impressed by the thought that has gone into it. From someone not afraid to question the game and highlight any areas possibly needing attention, this is looking excellent. Well done to the design team!

WOW, thank you sir! We're very proud of the set we made, and it's awesome to have feedback like this. Thank you so much. We'll continue working hard to improve on the foundation we made.

Thanks everyone!

I have to agree with Deckbuilder. This set so far seems like everything I could possibly want a set to be! I can't wait to play both the Necromancer and the Druid. They both seem effective, novel, and fun to play. This set seems to really expand the game play experience.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 26, 2013, 09:54:17 am
Going to be a beast to bring down.....

Hmmm, this guy seems pretty cool.  I really like mechanics like this that give a boost to swarms in a subtle way.  This allows you to get more mileage out your weenies...as long as you act before they die, which is similar to how you would employ Sacrificial Altar.  Now all we need is a zombie that has some sort of negative effect to your opponent when it dies and you have a cool combo to work with ;)

It's kind of a shame that Obliterate will probably mean removed from game because it hurts the recursion machine that the necro is supposed to be, but I'm sure it's a game balance issue.

All in all this card makes me want to see more!  Is it Oct yet?   :P
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on September 26, 2013, 10:15:46 am
So I know that everyone is predicting the return of swarm with this next expansion (and with good reason!), but is playing a bunch of foxes against Necromancer going to be suicide? They get killed, they come back as cheep Zombies, then they get sacrificed to the elder gods to build a zombie katamari from beyond the stars.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 26, 2013, 10:29:47 am
So I know that everyone is predicting the return of swarm with this next expansion (and with good reason!), but is playing a bunch of foxes against Necromancer going to be suicide? They get killed, they come back as cheep Zombies, then they get sacrificed to the elder gods to build a deathball from beyond the stars.

No, not a smart play at all IMO.  Like all books in Mage Wars, your "swarm" build would need to be flexible.  If you are playing against something like Necro, you'd probably want to switch gears and go with the "few big" strategy (like Grizzly's and whatnot).  Less targets to reanimate, and harder to kill in order to do so. 

   
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 26, 2013, 11:00:39 am
... build a zombie katamari from beyond the stars.

This may be the best quote I've seen on Druid vs. Necro stuff so far. People at work are looking at me funny, laughed too hard.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: lettucemode on September 26, 2013, 12:08:59 pm
then they get sacrificed to the elder gods to build a zombie katamari from beyond the stars.

Someone give this man a banana sticker
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Moonglow on September 26, 2013, 10:41:28 pm
Have to say I am loving all the new mechanics and play concepts they are bringing out. ....

Bravo to the designers for these zombies and plants.

....Well done to the design team!

I've got to agree, I thought the core set was amazeballs, the next expansions were nice but didn't impress me as much - although to be fair I haven't played with them much yet either.  However, D vs N feels exciting and feels as clever as the whole base concept all over again, and designing a sequel half as good as the original is always impressive :)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sdougla2 on September 28, 2013, 12:15:43 am
Another Spawnpoint for the Druid is up.

https://www.facebook.com/MageWars

I'm not sure why I would want to run Samara Tree over Vine Tree. Vine Tree only costs 1 more, but gives a great deal more flexibility, and allows you to capitalize more quickly on the investment if necessary. You can spread Vine markers much more rapidly, you can still use it to cast Seedling Pods if you want, and it should be much better at holding off a rush and applying pressure (since you can immediately summon creatures with it, and you have flexibility in where they go from the Vine markers). It's not quite as mana efficient as Samara Tree and you lose Cantrip on the Seedling Pods, but those don't seem to be significant enough advantages to justify Samara Tree's lack of flexibility.

I suppose if your opponent doesn't put you under much pressure, you could cast both of them, but that would work much better if you had something to do with your mage's actions, such as attacking with an Ivarium Longbow. Also, I don't think anyone will be interested in letting the Druid build up for 5+ turns. That sounds like a good way to get overrun.

The real mana advantage from Samara Tree comes if you don't use the Seedling Pods as soon as you can, but that would mean taking even longer for the investment to pay off. If you only cast a plant spell out of a Seedling Pod when it's got 5+ mana, you are coming out significantly ahead in mana. Still, do you really need more than 6 Seedling Pods in a game?

I'm looking forward to trying these things out in game. A lot of this will depend on how good the Druid is at holding off the enemy.

Plants and zombies seem weak enough against fire that I will probably add Lash of Hellfire and Flaming Hellion back into my Warlock book, which will be a nice change, since I never use those cards now.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on September 28, 2013, 12:48:54 am
The final Samara Tree, ended up being 7 mana. So, It's two mana less than the vine tree. It all boils down to how much you want to use pods. If you're not invested in the pod strategy then the Vine tree is much better.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sdougla2 on September 28, 2013, 12:56:38 am
That makes more sense than the 8 costed version on Facebook. Still, in the abstract I'd rather have the flexibility offered by Vine Tree, even for 2 more mana. I'll have to try both and see how I like Seedling Pod based play, but that's my reaction just from reading the cards.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on September 28, 2013, 01:42:52 am
That makes more sense than the 8 costed version on Facebook. Still, in the abstract I'd rather have the flexibility offered by Vine Tree, even for 2 more mana. I'll have to try both and see how I like Seedling Pod based play, but that's my reaction just from reading the cards.

Vine Tree only allows Vine creatures/conjurations. Seedling Pods allows Plant creatures/conjurations. Vines are a subset of Plants. So Vine Tree may give you greater penetration but what it produces is less flexible. If Tanglevine remains a Plant only etc.

I can also imagine there are some Plant synergies to leverage in the set as the 2 turn deferred arrival via Pods which actually have less penetration than Vine Tree's double vine growth. For example this "Renewing Rain" that Arcanus mentioned could be an incantation "for each Plant you control in the arena, you may do 1 of the following: remove 2 damage, remove 2 burn or add 2 mana on it if it can channel". With such a spell, the Pod strategy could be even better...

I gather Pods once allowed placement further distance than the "in its zone" version spoiled in the News section. I could have sworn I saw a version that allowed adjacent zones but I may have imagined it. If Pods, like Samara Tree, are not exactly as spoiled in final print, then that may explain the apparent disparity in benefit.

Without knowing just how much of a subset Vines are among Plants, it's hard to gauge. One thing is true. Only a Seedling Pod can use a vine marker to create a non-Vine Plant in a distant zone. Trees cannot be Vines (e.g. Togorah, Lifetree). I'm sure that's worth something.

Still, with the incomplete knowledge caveat, I tend to agree with you that I'm preferring the greater penetration and tempo of the Vine Tree to the slower, less penetrating Samara Tree. However, that's only out of the cards spoiled so far...

I think just as there are (at least) 2 Necromancer strategies so far, Zombie Semi-Recursion & Traditional Undead Army, this difference is highlighting divergent strategies for Druid, go fast encroaching Vines or slower Trees (and Vines). Obviously there should be other more esoteric builds.

It must be so frustrating being "in the know" reading our alarmist musings and being unable to spoil out of turn (unless you are Arcanus, can we guess who that is?). I've decided to just have a bit of faith all will become clear in time (Although I'm worried about current inability to leverage Poison Immunity with Plants not seeming to be hurt by the more obvious direct damage effects). So after "jumping the gun" with my worries, I think I will just analyse each new card, consider its ramifications on current builds as well as new set interactions, and wait for the climax when we finally get to see the whole set. And it couldn't come sooner.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sdougla2 on September 28, 2013, 01:50:56 am
My main point is that Seedling Pods are vine spells, so in taking Vine Tree over Samara Tree you don't lose the ability to cast them with your spawnpoint and (after a suitable waiting period) summon a non-vine plant. Samara Tree is more efficient if you are planning on spamming Seedling Pods, but you can't use it to summon a Vine Snapper or Kralathor, the Devourer immediately if you're under pressure.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on September 28, 2013, 01:55:47 am
My main point is that Seedling Pods are vine spells, so in taking Vine Tree over Samara Tree you don't lose the ability to cast them with your spawnpoint and (after a suitable waiting period) summon a non-vine plant. Samara Tree is more efficient if you are planning on spamming Seedling Pods, but you can't use it to summon a Vine Snapper or Kralathor, the Devourer immediately if you're under pressure.

I totally agree without effects that allow mana manipulation on Plants. Samara = Mid Range Tree Monsters, Vine Tree = Aggro Nippers?

Yes, dangerous to categorise like that. Bad habit.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on September 28, 2013, 01:58:20 am
My main point is that Seedling Pods are vine spells, so in taking Vine Tree over Samara Tree you don't lose the ability to cast them with your spawnpoint and (after a suitable waiting period) summon a non-vine plant. Samara Tree is more efficient if you are planning on spamming Seedling Pods, but you can't use it to summon a Vine Snapper or Kralathor, the Devourer immediately if you're under pressure.

Oh, I just got your point. Yeah, that does seem silly...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on September 28, 2013, 02:08:51 am
The trade-off seems to be Vine Tree: cost 9, +1 vine/turn vs. Samara: cost 7, limited to Pods although Cantrips.

Like you, I know which one I'd choose. It seems like, without some great support we haven't seen yet, Samara Tree's late nerf (Outposts anyone?) may consign it to being a cheap back-up (more limited) Spawnpoint. I truly hope not. This does seem disappointingly odd...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on September 28, 2013, 03:48:33 am
I have been trying to puzzle this out and I think I've come up with a possible epiphany....

You almost always plant Vine Tree first. Then, only if you are mid range or moving to mid range for advantage, you also plant your Samara Tree. Maybe this is your preferred Treebond (as it is less of a target than Vine Tree or Etherian Lifetree). This gives your Vine Tree's Pods the Cantrip quality whilst Samara can exploit your faster vine marker growth fron Vine Tree. Now you start planting Rooted Tree Monsters with your more widespread vine marker network.

Yeah, that seems to be it. We have been following the paradigm of Spawnpoint X or Spawnpoint Y. But look at their half cost in every way, one is simply an optional upgrade on the other. In reality it's more like motor racing: one pit stop or two?

So the committed Aggro weenier build gives up on Samara entirely, the versatile build hybridises and the committed Mid Range build will rely on Samara to blossom their large book presence of Tree Monsters. I would also assume there is a Druid and her buffed Tree Buddy build that gives up on both of them, just a Treebond for resilience, a buffed Grizzly or other mobile Big, water attacks and quick vine spells. That would make imminent sense as a viable build.

If that's correct. then this is all very clever, a paradigm shift from "Swarm needs 1 Spawnpoint" to choosing zero, one or two! Who knows, there may be other optional upgrades yet unspoilt? Such a modular "lego kit" swarm attributes idea will be very clever and original indeed!

Well. there's a bit of Magic's Slivers to the idea. But this is not the Swarm's attributes but rather the Swarm Generators' attributes that you modular add-on. Anyway, I'm just surmising one possible reason for the poor choice trade-off that you highlighted. I may be totally wrong...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: isel on September 28, 2013, 08:13:14 am
(https://scontent-b-cdg.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1381632_577539232282173_2001826666_n.png)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on September 28, 2013, 08:54:18 am
So much is going to depend on what keywords are attached to which cards. If your strategy is to go hard with pods, having cantrip on them seems important? They're really fragile. I think this is the sort of decision that's really only going to be possible in the full context of the set, and with play.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 28, 2013, 09:49:24 am
I like this spawnpoint quite a bit more than the Samara Tree, for all the reasons already mentioned.  The flexibility is the key here.  Going straight Seedling Pods seems way too slow, cumbersome, and restrictive.  If Seedling Pods didn't need to wait until they had three mana on them it might be different, but alas...

Still, there's lots we haven't seen yet.  Maybe the Druid will have some way of "watering her plants" to make them grow faster or gain mana faster, or whatever.  I guess we'll see :)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Kharhaz on September 28, 2013, 09:54:41 am
The trade-off seems to be Vine Tree: cost 9, +1 vine/turn vs. Samara: cost 7, limited to Pods although Cantrips.


You're thinking tree -> pod.

Think pod -> tree. ;)

Place a seedpod and in a few turns you can see what your opponent is doing and bam! desired tree up, or mana flower, or whatever you want.  There is no game where a 2 mana cost mana flower is a bad thing, fyi. You say one or the other, I say if both are on the board the opponent needs to do something quick before he is lost in the woods
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on September 28, 2013, 02:00:16 pm
Here is an update on what I did a couple weeks ago. For those who are not keeping up and are interested with the DvN spoilers. Over the last 28 days we have seen 25 of the cards (not counting the mage cards). If you dig around a bit, you have seen 45% of the new cards in the set of 56 new cards. Spells broken down by Type:

Attack = 1 (5)
Conjurations = 7 (9)
Creatures = 13 (16)
Enchantments = 2 (9)
Equipment = 1 (11)
Incantations = 1 (10)

The last time I wrote this up, I put the numbers of each Type of Spell from the FvM release in parenthesis. This is so we can gauge where we are compared to the DvN release.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: fas723 on September 29, 2013, 11:32:52 am
Nice table but it feels like this set will contain more creatures and less equipments.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: fas723 on September 29, 2013, 12:37:42 pm
I also strongly believe that there will be a level 1 frost (water school) attack spell.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on September 29, 2013, 01:04:23 pm
I agree I think we will see more creatures and conjurations this time around. I still think we will see more equipment. So each mage so far has a mage only signature ring, I wonder what the necro's ring will discount?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on September 29, 2013, 04:10:42 pm
I agree I think we will see more creatures and conjurations this time around. I still think we will see more equipment. So each mage so far has a mage only signature ring, I wonder what the necro's ring will discount?

Some possbilities:

Discount on summoning one of the following: Undead (in general... very unlikely), Zombies, Skeletons (my personal guess: "Ring of Bones")

Discount on spell of another subtype: Vampiric possibly?

Discount on Dark Conjurations: He does seems to have a lot of them that he wants to cast.

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on September 30, 2013, 04:29:36 pm
(https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/1209171_578698328832930_995726010_n.png)

Plus: It's a mobile spawnpoint. That's pretty cool.
Minus: It can be dissolved, although that is the only way to destroy it.
Counter: You can sacrifice 3 life in order to recycle it and cast it again if you want.

Certainly interesting.

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on September 30, 2013, 04:39:24 pm
Yeah...that's pretty awesome.  Yes, they can Dissolve it, but 10 mana is not cheap to be tossing out Dissolves, especially since you can bring it back.  I need some time to digest it, but I really like it at first glance.

One thing you never do with it though is Harmonize it, because then you can be assured they will Dissolve it.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on September 30, 2013, 05:10:00 pm
Yeah...that's pretty awesome.  Yes, they can Dissolve it, but 10 mana is not cheap to be tossing out Dissolves, especially since you can bring it back.  I need some time to digest it, but I really like it at first glance.

One thing you never do with it though is Harmonize it, because then you can be assured they will Dissolve it.

Agreed. I realized that there is one other way to get rid of it: Steal Equipment; though I seriously doubt anyone would be willing to spend 20 mana to do so even in a Necro versus Necro matchup, unless of course it is Harmonized.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on September 30, 2013, 05:36:21 pm
Carry a couple of Nullifies or Reverse Magic's to protect it.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: fas723 on September 30, 2013, 05:43:28 pm
Don't forget the greatest benefit; the extra action to cast creatures! For only 10 mana as well.

You can not stack mana on it though because then it will for sure be dissolved. Every extra mana above 1 will be a gain for your opponent when he destroys it.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: aquestrion on October 01, 2013, 12:58:36 am
I don't think nullify or reverse magics stop a dissolve on an object attached to a mage. Since it issnt actually targeting the mage
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: darkfonix on October 01, 2013, 01:01:47 am
I don't think nullify or reverse magics stop a dissolve on an object attached to a mage. Since it issnt actually targeting the mage
What? Read the card, especially the "target" zone. Dissolve targets a mage. So yes, nullify stops a dissolve.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: baronzaltor on October 01, 2013, 01:09:29 am
I don't think nullify or reverse magics stop a dissolve on an object attached to a mage. Since it issnt actually targeting the mage

Dissolve's target line says "Mage", so it an attempt to cast it will trigger a Nullify/Reverse Magic because it goes through the mage to get to the equipment.

Dispel, by contrast, has a target line that reads "Revealed Enchantment".  In the case of that spell a Nullify wouldn't trigger because it goes around the mage and directly hits the Enchantment.

So Nullify/Reverse will stop a Dissolve.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: aquestrion on October 01, 2013, 02:49:08 am
Thank you for clarifying that Im not at my cards right now
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: aquestrion on October 01, 2013, 03:02:14 am
I don't know about anyone else but I always get the feeling that I shouldn't even post thoughts on this forum. Like not sitting in front of my cards every minute so I know exactly what they say. When I post my THOUGHTS on this forum I am mostly wrong. So half the time I get a sweet slap in the face and carry on about my life. The other half I'm just confused as to why I don't spend hours trying to find every rule and loophole and errated clause amongst this forum. This game is very complex and the rules are scattered everywhere. I'm very sorry to think I almost know any of these rules or rulings. Man I think I'll just take a break from this game.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Moonglow on October 01, 2013, 04:41:14 am
I keep this open on most of my browsers these days:

http://www.gameknight.org/MageWars/spellScribe.php?mage=forcemaster&selectedGames%5B%5D=core&selectedGames%5B%5D=tome&selectedGames%5B%5D=tom2&selectedGames%5B%5D=fmvwl&selectedGames%5B%5D=kumanjaro&quantityLimit=available

For exactly that reason :)  I think it's all part of the learning curve an like you often wonder how I'll remember everything,  but then remind myself that 95 percent of my games have just flowed without any need to get into complex rule lawyering....

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 01, 2013, 04:58:56 am
I don't know about anyone else but I always get the feeling that I shouldn't even post thoughts on this forum. Like not sitting in front of my cards every minute so I know exactly what they say. When I post my THOUGHTS on this forum I am mostly wrong. So half the time I get a sweet slap in the face and carry on about my life. The other half I'm just confused as to why I don't spend hours trying to find every rule and loophole and errated clause amongst this forum. This game is very complex and the rules are scattered everywhere. I'm very sorry to think I almost know any of these rules or rulings. Man I think I'll just take a break from this game.

Hey, aquestrion, I know exactly what you mean. I while away the dull moments at work on the forum and I do feel paranoid I'll make some mistake as I don't have access to cards (I can't even use cardgame.db for core set anymore).

If it's any consolation, our local meta didn't notice Dispel targeted revealed enchantment for over a month. I joined them late and, nervous that I'd be playing catch-up, I sought book-building advice on BGG. Someone (sdouglas?) highlighted to me that Nullify did not protect me from Dispel. When I sprung this on my local meta in my first game, there was a furore!

Sometimes, you just "bite" and ask the silly question, knowing you'll come out looking silly. For example, sIKE mentioned casting multiple Battle Fury on his attacking pumped-up Forcemaster. How, I asked? Obviously with Thoughtspores! Doh! But I had to ask, solve the puzzle that was bugging me!

Knowing Dispel is "revealed enchantment" and not "revealed enchantment attached to target object", it is easy enough to think Dissolve is "equipment" and not "equipment worn by target mage". It would be intuitive, either one way or the other. It's a very easy misunderstanding. That Nullify protection, and the fact Dissolve is range 1 while Dispel is range 2, are main reasons why Regrowth Belt is usually better than Regrowth (it's not the case if you have many enchantments to be Dispelled and few equipment to be Dissolved).

I also thought Baronzaltor was only trying to be helpful in gently correcting you.

I sympathise at you bemoaning the lack of a Single Source of Clarifications, something I've pushed for in a constantly updated Living FAQ (as you well know from another post). The fact the FAQ saw no change when complex cards like Enchantment Transfusion were released is, frankly, not great. The immense value and instant game appeal of the Core Set, as well as the excellent customer service experienced by many, that Brand Value is sadly being eroded by small things like a Living FAQ that does not require much resource investment to keep up-to-date. More rules clarity is urgently needed before people can triumphantly point out rules errors in others.

For example, I faced a backlash when, among a list of unclear rules issues, I did not differentiate between the Heal symbol and the Light symbol which both have light emitting. Yes, I missed that one. But that does not get round the fact that there are so many areas where the rules are unclear. The longer this continues unresolved, the more disenchanted some (who want clear ideally intuitive rules) will become.

I hope you reconsider your decision to take a break from the game as I have enjoyed reading your enthusiastic thoughts. If everybody felt less self-conscious and just impulsively spoke their mind without fear of ridicule, just kindred spirits with a fervent love of this game, yes even ocasionally making an @ss of themselves (hey, you are not on a "first and final warning" like me - not from Shad0w), then this forum would become an even better place.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 01, 2013, 06:48:01 am
I keep this open on most of my browsers these days:

http://www.gameknight.org/MageWars/spellScribe.php?mage=forcemaster&selectedGames%5B%5D=core&selectedGames%5B%5D=tome&selectedGames%5B%5D=tom2&selectedGames%5B%5D=fmvwl&selectedGames%5B%5D=kumanjaro&quantityLimit=available

Wow! This is great. Where have you been all my (Mage Wars) life? But how do you change it from Forcemaster? Is it Work In Progress?

If it has that functionality, I wasted my time creating an Excel spell-builder for our local meta, inputting school levels etc. Still, mine allows for a flexible pool of cards to be input (by set) so physical maximums are never exceeded. But I'd take the card image and text anytime!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on October 01, 2013, 08:32:25 am
It *is* wonderful, and you can change mages by starting at the Mage select page. www.gameknight.org/MageWars/

Regarding the urge to be always right, and the associated difficulty, believe me, I know what you mean. It's a large game with complex rules and I've had a few "oh, right, keyword fail" moments myself. Hell, I seem to remember Shad0w got a rules question wrong once. These things happen, taking it personally would be the real mistake.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 01, 2013, 09:24:45 am
To me that is the main point to the forums. Learning. How can you learn if you don't ask questions? I am with Deckbuilder on the FAQ. It does get quite annoying (not at the person posing the question) seeing the same questions asked multiple times and you see the moderator posting link to multiple forum threads to cove the question. I am really hoping that we don't see a FAQ update (only) with each Major Expansion and that we can see at least Quarterly or even Monthly updates. We all know that convention season is tough so things can wiggle a bit around that time of course.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on October 01, 2013, 09:41:34 am
I don't know about anyone else but I always get the feeling that I shouldn't even post thoughts on this forum. Like not sitting in front of my cards every minute so I know exactly what they say. When I post my THOUGHTS on this forum I am mostly wrong. So half the time I get a sweet slap in the face and carry on about my life. The other half I'm just confused as to why I don't spend hours trying to find every rule and loophole and errated clause amongst this forum. This game is very complex and the rules are scattered everywhere. I'm very sorry to think I almost know any of these rules or rulings. Man I think I'll just take a break from this game.

Don't get discouraged man!  There is no harm in being wrong and no one here that responded to the Nullify issue meant to be rude or disrespectful (at least it didn't come off that way to me). 

This game has a steep learning curve and there is no shame in being at bit behind.  You'll get there, it will just take more play time and, yes, more forum time.  Just keep in mind that this is the internet and peoples tones can be easily misread, but most people here are pretty cool and easy going.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Shad0w on October 01, 2013, 10:05:35 am
I don't know about anyone else but I always get the feeling that I shouldn't even post thoughts on this forum. Like not sitting in front of my cards every minute so I know exactly what they say. When I post my THOUGHTS on this forum I am mostly wrong. So half the time I get a sweet slap in the face and carry on about my life. The other half I'm just confused as to why I don't spend hours trying to find every rule and loophole and errated clause amongst this forum. This game is very complex and the rules are scattered everywhere. I'm very sorry to think I almost know any of these rules or rulings. Man I think I'll just take a break from this game.

Do not feel bad it happens to the best of us. Take sometime step back and relax.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Shad0w on October 01, 2013, 10:10:30 am
It *is* wonderful, and you can change mages by starting at the Mage select page. www.gameknight.org/MageWars/ (http://www.gameknight.org/MageWars/)

Regarding the urge to be always right, and the associated difficulty, believe me, I know what you mean. It's a large game with complex rules and I've had a few "oh, right, keyword fail" moments myself. Hell, I seem to remember Shad0w got a rules question wrong once. These things happen, taking it personally would be the real mistake.

The best is less than a week before the set goes to print cards get changed.  :P
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Kharhaz on October 01, 2013, 02:21:45 pm

The best is less than a week before the set goes to print cards get changed.  :P

Better late than never :D
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 01, 2013, 02:23:04 pm
The best is less than a week before the set goes to print cards get changed.  :P
I hope the change is for the better and provides great clarity in wording ;)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Shad0w on October 01, 2013, 06:42:59 pm
The best is less than a week before the set goes to print cards get changed.  :P
I hope the change is for the better and provides great clarity in wording ;)

Mostly.... ???
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on October 04, 2013, 10:50:16 pm
(https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1385770_580213392014757_1961880723_n.png)

"Move along. There is nothing to see here folks"
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 05, 2013, 01:16:13 am
My thoughts exactly Wiz. Pass
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 05, 2013, 07:21:12 am
I think looking at Skeletons in isolation is doing them a disservice as we don't know its support.
We know the Acolyte can reconstruct 2 life (very good) which is based on its Skeleton keyword.
The other difference with Skeletons (Zombies are Nonliving Psychic Immune) is they are Soldiers.

I suspect there could be a better Soldier Spawnpoint that is War school but not Mage exclusive.
Or War school Soldier upgrades, zone exclusive conjurations which grant "your Soldiers gain X".
This would inject good interactions with Warlord, Holy mages and Skeleton Army Necromancers.

Here's hoping...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on October 05, 2013, 01:38:20 pm
I think looking at Skeletons in isolation is doing them a disservice as we don't know its support.
We know the Acolyte can reconstruct 2 life (very good) which is based on its Skeleton keyword.
The other difference with Skeletons (Zombies are Nonliving Psychic Immune) is they are Soldiers.

I suspect there could be a better Soldier Spawnpoint that is War school but not Mage exclusive.
Or War school Soldier upgrades, zone exclusive conjurations which grant "your Soldiers gain X".
This would inject good interactions with Warlord, Holy mages and Skeleton Army Necromancers.

Here's hoping...

I wasn't meaning to say this card is without implication, just that it is unremarkable in itself both in terms of art and stats. The fact that it is such a cheap basic  dark card with psychic immunity, undead, and a soldier all have implications. It's cheap fodder for the epic growing zombie, its an almost costless alternative for spawning from your graveyard after a bigger creature dies and it rounds out the warlords anti- forcemaster creature pool. Nice idea on the conjurations BTW.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 05, 2013, 03:06:27 pm
Possibly. However we do know a few things too, so we can speculate. First we know that this is more than likely the cheapest creature for the Necro. Each mage has their own variation, with differing stats. Basically the grunt that can be spammed at very little cost. Except unlike the Beastmaster's fox who has fast, this creature has essentially nothing (accept the possible soldier enhancement). There is the Acolyte who can regen the skele, but that means your using two spell points just to have a decent one spell point creature.
The reason why this is an instant pass (accept for the possible later reveal of this becoming better with the soldiering) is that with what we have seen thus far there are far better options. Just go zombie. With a few extra mana you can have a zombie who can infect and turn others, not to mention be useful for shaggoth if they are about to die. Acolyte is still useful for the zombies giving them +1 melee making it easier to increase your horde.

And don't get me started on this being a simple one bite snack for Kralathor. I couldn't even imagine the fear I would experience if an opponent brought him out with multiple skeles on the board.

If 'Altar of Skulls' wasn't enemy creature only, I could see considering using them for my Necro poison build. They are such a cheap creature that while my mage focuses on my normal poison driven spells, my Libro Mortuos could summon one each round for sacrifice to speed that process up. But alas that's impossible which in turn gives me so far zero reason to put these guys in my book. Oh well.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on October 05, 2013, 04:20:43 pm
Current metagame? Useless. Future metagame? Totally unknown. Depends a lot on the balance of value between mana and actions.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 05, 2013, 05:20:48 pm
I'll take Deck's lead and wish for the best.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on October 05, 2013, 07:15:56 pm
Possibly. However we do know a few things too, so we can speculate. First we know that this is more than likely the cheapest creature for the Necro.

Sure. To my knowledge the Goblin Grunt is the only 4 point creature released so far. However the Darkfenne bat is an already existing good 5 point option for Necro since rot is a poison effect.

Each mage has their own variation, with differing stats. Basically the grunt that can be spammed at very little cost. Except unlike the Beastmaster's fox who has fast, this creature has essentially nothing (accept the possible soldier enhancement).

I would not discount psychic immune, and non-living as nothing. He is immune to a lot of stuff including poison.

There is the Acolyte who can regen the skele, but that means your using two spell points just to have a decent one spell point creature. The reason why this is an instant pass (accept for the possible later reveal of this becoming better with the soldiering) is that with what we have seen thus far there are far better options. Just go zombie. With a few extra mana you can have a zombie who can infect and turn others, not to mention be useful for shaggoth if they are about to die. Acolyte is still useful for the zombies giving them +1 melee making it easier to increase your horde.

I agree with everything here except for your point about the Shaggoth. The skeletons can be used as 5 mana growth tokens potentially after they have attacked for the round.

And don't get me started on this being a simple one bite snack for Kralathor. I couldn't even imagine the fear I would experience if an opponent brought him out with multiple skeles on the board.

That true. Very bad combination here.

As an aside realized one other thing looking back at the cards: Skeletal Sentry who looks like a Solider, is named for a type of soldier and even attacks with a real weapon does not count as a soldier while this dweeb with no armor who attacks with a leg bone and is generically named minion gets the Soldier subtype. WTH?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 05, 2013, 07:57:28 pm
I appreciate the reply Wiz. Just as a heads up Shaggoth only consumes zombie undead for growth, excluding the skeles. Zombies also get bloodthirsty and resilient, which if used correctly are invaluable imo. I agree about the bats, the rot is nice. But, the fact that Idol of Pestilance, Poison Cloud and Alter of skulls would take those little guys out fairly quick would make me think twice. Zombie bats on the other hand would be a different matter. I'm crossing my fingers for a low cost undead creature with rot that I can use to zerg.
 
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: aquestrion on October 05, 2013, 08:59:43 pm
I'm pretty sure bloodthirsty plus zero actually hurts them to choose who they attack
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 05, 2013, 09:22:09 pm
Crap, your right, I thought it was +1
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on October 05, 2013, 10:34:08 pm
I appreciate the reply Wiz. Just as a heads up Shaggoth only consumes zombie undead for growth, excluding the skeles. Zombies also get bloodthirsty and resilient, which if used correctly are invaluable imo. I agree about the bats, the rot is nice. But, the fact that Idol of Pestilance, Poison Cloud and Alter of skulls would take those little guys out fairly quick would make me think twice. Zombie bats on the other hand would be a different matter. I'm crossing my fingers for a low cost undead creature with rot that I can use to zerg.

Good call on Shaggoth, so many finicky details in this game it's impossible to keep them all straight half the time. As for the bats not a problem that they are going to die, it's expected anyway with low level creatures. They only cost 3 mana to reanimate as Zombies and then Shaggoth can devour them.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Memnaelar on October 09, 2013, 05:49:16 pm
Any thoughts on the Grey Wraith featured on the FB page currently?  Weak on 5+ is nice.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 09, 2013, 06:16:19 pm
I'm really excited about it. This isn't a new spoiler so I have had a bit to mull this guy over. First, artwork is awesome. Really conveys his mist like state. But yeah weak on 5+!!! Since weak is a poison condition I could see getting one or two out beginning game and just go around putting one weak marker on as many creatures as possible. You are either forcing your opponet to waste mana/ actions getting rid of those or accept weakened plus an additional 1 direct damage from your Necro each round. They work in poison build as well as Zombie horde build. Teleporting through walls is just an added bonus!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Memnaelar on October 09, 2013, 06:34:48 pm
So does the wording "Teleport to an adjacent zone" in any way obviate the need for LOS?  My assumption was that it would not, but now I'm not entirely certain.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 09, 2013, 06:38:53 pm
For walls that do not block LOS, I think piked is an example then i'm pretty sure you can tele through. Walls that block LOS I assume normal rules apply.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 09, 2013, 06:55:56 pm
For walls that do not block LOS, I think piked is an example then i'm pretty sure you can tele through. Walls that block LOS I assume normal rules apply.
A Teleport "subtype" in and of itself is not restricted by LOS the Teleport Incantation spell has restrictions placed on it by the text of the card. The Grey Wraith can teleport into an adjacent zone regardless of LOS, as per the text of the card.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 09, 2013, 07:06:11 pm
Well there you go.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Shad0w on October 09, 2013, 07:39:27 pm
For walls that do not block LOS, I think piked is an example then i'm pretty sure you can tele through. Walls that block LOS I assume normal rules apply.
A Teleport "subtype" in and of itself is not restricted by LOS the Teleport Incantation spell has restrictions placed on it by the text of the card. The Grey Wraith can teleport into an adjacent zone regardless of LOS, as per the text of the card.

Somebody remembers all my posts on this. :P
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: IndyPendant on October 09, 2013, 07:46:49 pm
Wait, so that arcane gremlin and this wraith can teleport through walls even if they block LoS?

...Did not know that.  Or expect that. ; )
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: baronzaltor on October 09, 2013, 08:52:50 pm
Yep.

Movement does not require LOS.  Otherwise it would be impossible to willingly walk through a Fog Bank (or even a Wall of Fire or Thorns in a pinch).  LOS is only required when something calls for you to be able to establish a target.  So since you dont have to target your destination zone, and teleport lets you bypass the wall you can just pop right to the other side of it.


The Wraith is cool, melee Weak tokens are really handy.  He can make for a pesky guard, forcing an opponent to attack an incorporeal creature with a Weakening counterattack, and as mentioned hes synergetic with Plague Master.  Hes also good to sic on Grimson users, since he can pop through walls and start cutting down ranged attack damage.

He does have a few aspects to keep in mind though when compared to other creatures in the Necro toolbox:

- He is incorporeal, so he cant use Battle Fury, Whirling Strike, or Retaliate to double and triple dip his Weak chance rolls (those require Corporeal Creature as targets)

-He has the "spirit" subtype rather than "Undead", which means he can't be made into an Undying Servant or benefit from any other "undead" or Zombie/Skeleton specific synergy with Necro's other stuff

-His Upkeep +1 can add up if trying to run multiples

All in all, hes a good unit though. 
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Memnaelar on October 09, 2013, 11:35:53 pm
A Teleport "subtype" in and of itself is not restricted by LOS the Teleport Incantation spell has restrictions placed on it by the text of the card. The Grey Wraith can teleport into an adjacent zone regardless of LOS, as per the text of the card.

So then it's the fact that you teleport to "target" zone in the Incantation (meaning you have to have LOS to the zone) as opposed to "adjacent" zone (which ostensibly means no targeting/LOS required) for the Wraith (and move action to the next zone for Gremlin, which although worded differently seems to similarly lack any need to target that zone)?

I just want to be clear.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 09, 2013, 11:50:23 pm
Ohhhh I hadn't thought about using him as a guard!!!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Memnaelar on October 09, 2013, 11:54:25 pm
So what do we think of the Nightshade Lotus -- a bit expensive at Level 3 for a single attack.  You spend 7 mana for an unavoidable, no effect 3 damage (which is worse than pretty much every other attack spell) and then pay additional mana for Sleep at a slight (or somewhat more than slight if high-level target) discount...  Is the action economy (attack + a really good effect in sleep) worth the level?  I don't know. 

That said, I'm not entirely sure if it's a single attack.  It doesn't have the once per round wording that most conjurations that attack repeatedly do (wizard's tower, tower of light, etc.), BUT if it is NOT a repeat attacker and we're just talking a single attack like Tanglevine, why does it have hps if it's not doing anything after it drops the attack?  For Druid plant/vine synergy?

Help?  :)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on October 10, 2013, 12:26:33 am
The nightshade lotus is a conjuration that can make that attack every turn. If you stay in it's zone it will dust you with poison. In addition it has a one time "Sleep Spore" it can use to knock someone out.  All in all, it's a pretty potent static defense.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Memnaelar on October 10, 2013, 12:36:30 am
That's a pretty sweet defense indeed, then.

Now, here's hoping that Level 3 discourages Wizards from poaching it.  ;-)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 10, 2013, 12:38:56 am
I'm surprised that the sleep is one time use only. In playtesting did you consider making it like the Warlords ballista where it has to build up one or two rounds before being able to use it again? The one time use seems somewhat weakened when compared to some of the below mentioned 'Conjurations with Attacks'.

Overall still pretty cool though. Anything that adds to vine tactics is a good thing though.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: aquestrion on October 10, 2013, 01:12:09 am
Its an unavoidable RANGED atk ...screw you huginn, and no counter strike or damage circles either
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: jacksmack on October 10, 2013, 02:54:07 am
The text on the card:
Why does it not follow other cards such as: "Once per round before or after a friendly units action phase..... use a ready marker to keep track of this."

Its a lvl 3 spell, and that appears to me to be 1 level too high to ever include more than 1 of them.
Also it doesnt have regen like most other plants.

I like the idea of the card but it seems fairly weak to me.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 10, 2013, 04:15:33 am
Where is this card previewed?

Agree with jacksmack from card parameters described so far: level 3 (for 7 mana, why break the correlation?) is biggest barrier to play.

At level 3, for more mana (tougher with plant regeneration), I'd expect a reloading in-zone Sleep like Ballista (forget the damage).

Not having ready marker text seems strange if it's a repeatable attack. How do you time making the attack and remember you cannot make it again that round? Unless it is zone upkeep damage, so just a Poison Gas Cloud? Is damage poison? To go with psychic Sleep?

How do you remember if the card has used its single Sleep use? I assume (like those alien larva) the token is placed on the card while unused? A soporific plant is a nice idea but execution from description above seems rather clunky and inelegant...

Is this a hoax card? Someone copy the card here please?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on October 10, 2013, 08:06:07 am
Where is this card previewed?

I would always check the facebook page first.

(https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/1013547_582162895153140_2014499597_n.png]https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/1013547_582162895153140_2014499597_n.png)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 10, 2013, 09:27:28 am
Thanks! Can't do FB at work (though could via phone I guess)

Let's forget the lack of mention of how to trigger its attack (creatures have activation markers, conjurations have ready markers, abusable but not in this passive case).

Ugh!

Threat: a Rooted 3 dice Poison and (one-shot pay mana) Psychic attack, so much immunity for both out there. 3 attack dice means 1.5 damage against anyone with 3 armour. Should be critical damage. Yet it does not hinder while "vine markers" hinder. Pay mana means you need to have mana spare to activate its main effect.

Resilience: spend 3 spell points (only 7 mana) for a 7 life unarmoured object that can be one-shotted (especially by a Fireblast) before it can do anything?

Sorry but this card does not make sense at all. Designed as it is (not like a Ballista), this should be a Nature Trap with one-shot damage and Sleep. In this case, a fear of ready marker abuse is not an issue as it is a passive conditional effect, like being attacked by a Psylok. You have to move the target into its zone or the opponent has to voluntarily accept the attack by moving in (probably when you have no mana to activate its Sleep attack).

Please design team re-think this card. The soporific trap plant is a very strong dinosaur lands fantasy trope but it should be a one-shot Trap enchantment. Even then, poison and psychic... ugh.

Thankfully this card has not made it to the official News site so can remain a FB beta-test feedback.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on October 10, 2013, 09:31:39 am
Seeing all of this Flame +2 makes me want to drop a Gate to Hell on the Druid SO BAD.  As terrible as that card is overall, it seems like it would be an "I win" button vs Druid.  24 mana, one quick action and one full action in the mid game and you basically would have a complete board wipe against Druid.  That'll be fun!  As long as you're not the Druid...  ;)

Edit: Oh, just re-read the Gate to Hell.  It would be two full actions to use, plus it wouldn't hit any conjurations...so, yeah, not that great after all.  Still might be fun, although not as worth it.

As for the Lotus, eh...it's ok.  As others have mentioned, it's a bit expensive for its low attack.  Since you have to pay extra for the Sleep, I don't think they needed to make it cost 7 for it's base attack.  This probably won't see tons of play, but I'll at least try it out.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on October 10, 2013, 09:37:59 am
Thanks! Can't do FB at work (though could via phone I guess)

Let's forget the lack of mention of how to trigger its attack (creatures have activation markers, conjurations have ready markers, abusable but not in this passive case).

Ugh!

Threat: Rooted Poison and Psychic attacks, so much immunity out there. 3 attack dice (thought it was 3 direct damage) which means 1.5 damage against anyone with 3 armour. Yet it does not hinder while "vine markers" hinder.

Resilience: spend 3 spell points (only 7 mana) for a 7 life unarmoured object that can be one-shotted (especially by a Fireblast) before it can do anything?

Sorry but this card does not make sense at all. Designed as it is (not like a Ballista), this should be a Nature Trap with one-shot damage and Sleep. In this case, a fear of ready marker abuse is not an issue as it is a passive conditional effect, like being attacked by a Psylok. They have to be moved into or voluntarily accept the attack.

Please design team re-think this card. The soporific trap plant is a very strong dinosaur lands fantasy trope but it should be a one-shot Trap enchantment. Even then, poison and psychic... ugh.

They posted something on FB about there being a new rule in the DvN rulebook that explains how to work Conjurations with attacks.  I'm sure it will use the ready marker mechanic, they just put it in the rulebook so they don't have to re-print that text on every card that uses it.

I agree with you 100% that this should have been a trap, or at least had a way to get more Mist counters.  As it is, this card seems very weak.

Sadly, this late in the game, I highly doubt there's anything they can do to fix it since I'm sure it's at the printer by now.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on October 10, 2013, 09:45:17 am
Conjuration attacks such as this one are covered in the DVN Rulebook. Triggering it's attack will make more sense then. I can see your point about a nature trap. That would have been an interesting idea to go with. Though at that point the card is completely passive. I'm dependent on my opponent walking a creature into that zone. With this you're guaranteed to "sleep" the creature you want by using your quickcast effectively.  If you get to attack more than twice with this card regardless of sleep it's made it's value.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 10, 2013, 09:50:34 am
They posted something on FB about there being a new rule in the DvN rulebook that explains how to work Conjurations with attacks.  I'm sure it will use the ready marker mechanic, they just put it in the rulebook so they don't have to re-print that text on every card that uses it.

Say it's a ready marker before or after own action. So I act last off-initiative and move into zone with this. Next turn I act first and move out unhindered. Or I could just double move through. Hardly difficult to bypass. You spent 7 mana, 1 fast action and 3 (!!!) spell points on a slight annoyance.

Still my flyers get hurt too (attracted by bright colour?). My Non-Living are immune so could be totally redundant in match-up.

Really shocked. Sorry guys. Miss.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on October 10, 2013, 09:57:25 am
I can understand how this card may not look great in a vacuum. But I think when the full set is out this will be a very usable card.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 10, 2013, 10:03:54 am
I get that it's an offensive Vine attack. But worth 3 spell points? I pay 9+level mana and 3 spell points to deal minimal damage and Sleep at vine range (spending a vine marker). Or pay 4 spell points and c. 2xlevel to Sleep at range 2. Sounds fair, might as well say Druid Only.

But the problem is Poison and Psychic, affecting only Living. It makes it a niche sideboard card. For which you spend 3 spellpoints? I just can't see it being played in anything except the most fun, casual concepts.

It's like how much Jokhtari was nerfed just by a totally unnecessary "Living" in Wounded Prey. Of course Bleed has to be Living non-Plant. Why create poor match-ups by adding Living to her mage ability? I've bitten the zombie's arm off, it is my Wounded Prey. My Earth Wizard laughs at you, Jokhtari.

It is flavoursome though. Venus Fly Trap gives you a clue what it should have been...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 10, 2013, 11:50:36 am
Might work well in a FM book. Set the Nightshade and pull that Grizzly into the zone with it and blam we have a nice little Teddy Bear....

Meaning it would work very well against a few Bigs strategy.....

At least I think it would...timing is everything!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: echephron on October 10, 2013, 11:57:45 am
Don't know why there is so much hate on this sleep flower. It looks functional and fun to me. think of it as a level 1 creature(~5mana with 2 mana preinvested in the sleep spell) which can cast one(level 2 nature) sleep spell. added together, that should be 3 spellpoints, the same total mana cost, and not any less. And as for those who would prefer some sort of trap, this thing can trap just fine. The vine or seedling pod is the trap. If you have initiative, cast the flower in deployment, from a vine or defensive seedling pod then do the attack asap at beginning of round, or just quickcast it all.  If you cast the flower when you need the sleep effect, then there is no chance for it to die before the sleepening.

I would feel more at ease casting it before needing the sleep if the flower costed one less and the sleep costed one more though. The only big bad thing is that it has range 0 and can't move, which I'm fine with.  I am more worried about the Beastmaster getting a nature sleep spell from this card.  It doesnt compare well with the goblin slinger(lev2, 7 mana, soldier, 3 ranged attack which is actually ranged)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 10, 2013, 11:57:59 am
I can understand how this card may not look great in a vacuum. But I think when the full set is out this will be a very usable card.

Are we going to see any more, of the very nice and well done, in-depth D v N Preview write ups that Aaron and other have done over on the MageWars.com site?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: patrickconnor on October 10, 2013, 12:12:18 pm
I can understand how this card may not look great in a vacuum. But I think when the full set is out this will be a very usable card.

Are we going to see any more, of the very nice and well done, in-depth D v N Preview write ups that Aaron and other have done over on the MageWars.com site?

Yes sir! There are going to be daily updates from here on out. Major Props to Aaron and the rest of our Druid vs Necromancer team for their work in sharing the world of the Druid and Necromancer.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 10, 2013, 12:35:06 pm
As Laddin suggested in a vacuum this isn't showing it's full potential. So we have to take all speculation with a grain of salt. With that said, I think this card would be so much more useful competitively if it was modeled after ballista, or a facedown trap/conjuration blend (for the surprise element), or at the very least a mass sleep. Spending all that mana for a stationary conj with three attack dice and a one off sleep with a range of 0-0 doesn't seem viable on any real level. Might as well be a wall, just go around it. Plus even if somebody really loved these they are probably only going to have one or two in their deck just because of the high point cost.

As far as the forcmaster strategy, it's true that would work, but your mage has to use up one valuable quickcast in order to make one of it's conjurations effective. No thank you. Just throw a sleep in your book and move on.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 10, 2013, 12:49:07 pm
As far as the forcmaster strategy, it's true that would work, but your mage has to use up one valuable quickcast in order to make one of it's conjurations effective. No thank you. Just throw a sleep in your book and move on.
Fair enough, the thought here is a way to get an additional attack with out paying the 3*Spellbook cost for  non-Mind creatures and get a sleep to go along with it. Do not discount what this means for board control. It makes it a spot that you deny your opponent from resting freely in. Since this "sleep" is neither a Enchantment nor Incantation it is not Nullify/Reverse Magic able also...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 10, 2013, 01:02:54 pm
I'll give you that  8)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 10, 2013, 02:11:24 pm
Don't know why there is so much hate on this sleep flower. It looks functional and fun to me.

Welcome to the forum and good defence, sir!

It is definitely fun because it is very flavoursome: it certainly appeals to the roleplayer in me. But it is a very niche spell. The reasons are:
(a) Range 1. This means it is mainly useful via vine range so effectively Druid Only.
(b) only vs. Living. Useless against any Necromancer, most Earth Wizards, Golem Warlord, Stalker Forcemaster and Undead Warlock.
Definition of niche = an effective Mage X Only card that is also only effective against some Mage builds.

Is it worth investing 3 spell points of your 120 budget in a card that may be redundant? Only if it is a Silver Bullet in the meta. This isn't one.

I could have 1 Lotus or 3 Tanglevines (same vine range but played by other mages at range 2). Hard choice...

think of it as a level 1 creature(~5mana with 2 mana preinvested in the sleep spell) which can cast one(level 2 nature) sleep spell. added together, that should be 3 spellpoints, the same total mana cost, and not any less.

It's not a level 1 creature. It's a conjuration. It does not give me action overlap to time my moves correctly (which a rooted creature would). It does not hinder (which a rooted creature would). It cannot be buffed up by enchantments or commands. It is a structure or terrain that can attack via a ready marker. This can be game breaking if you can stack them. It's not an issue in this case as its range is 0 and teleporting victim into multiples has no benefit as multiple Sleep does not stack (good design here). It is less than a level 1 creature.

So you pay 9 + target level vs. 2x target level for a Sleep. Because the damage is minimal here. To use it as a quick cast or Deployment attack, it breaks most Channelling thresholds so requires pre-planned saved mana. It's not a on-the-fly Fly Trap.

Because of vine range, it is a potentially useful toolbox option for a Druid. But I can see many Druids deciding it just doesn't "make the cut" at 3 spell points for a situational spell.

(Rise Again is another example, but I believe it costs 3 spell points because of potential recursive abuse with Curse Weaving)

And as for those who would prefer some sort of trap, this thing can trap just fine. The vine or seedling pod is the trap. If you have initiative, cast the flower in deployment, from a vine or defensive seedling pod then do the attack asap at beginning of round, or just quickcast it all.  If you cast the flower when you need the sleep effect, then there is no chance for it to die before the sleepening.

All good points, sir.

I think Seedling Pods germinate thinking "when I grow up, I wanna be a Tree" and are generally wasted on vines (but the option exists). Yes you can Vine Tree Deploy or QC attack with it anywhere with a vine marker. But you can do that with new Tanglevines, 3 times over.

Ok, on reflection, this is grossly unfair because it is judging a card in a vacuum. Etherian Lifetree will pump it up. It gets round Mordok's Obelisk and Altar of Peace. It does help stake ownership of a zone against an opponent who is playing Living. It can target Flyers (those airborne spores) whilst Tanglevine can't. Yes, I can see a Druid running one of them as a toolbox option. But it will never make any other mage book and is likely to be useless in many match-ups.

As a Druid, from previews so far (big proviso), I think I prefer +1 Tanglevine, +1 Surging Wave, +1 Acid Ball over 1 Lotus Nightshade.

It's a shame as it is such a great flavoursome thematic card. And I love the homage image reference to a certain $1000 Magic card...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on October 10, 2013, 02:26:42 pm
Actually the design is an homage to a certain classic of fantasy literature. The art, that's another story. I do love the art.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 10, 2013, 02:41:40 pm
Great points Deck. I think I'm a little too negative on this card. I tend to do that on cards that I would love in my book but know I wont or under very rare circumstances ever play. Again vacuum, grain of salt...just going on card alone in current meta. I love the thematic imagery of this conjuration, spores flying through the sky putting big baddies to sleep. Making the Druid a very strong passive attacker. All of which makes this sting a little bit more.


Ohhhh, another idea which I think would have been super fun is if the spores traveled in the air. You would use the existing directional mechanic in game to determine spore direction. When entering a square filled with mobs they would roll individually to see if the spores effected them that round. If so, they fall asleep. The spores dissipated after 3-4 moves. With that in play I could see the one time use being a bit more reasonable.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 10, 2013, 03:00:22 pm
Actually the design is an homage to a certain classic of fantasy literature. The art, that's another story. I do love the art.

What classic?!? It sounds so familiar... Was this a plant-based sleep poison used in Fafhrd and The Gray Mouser? Elric? Hyperboreans? Sparrowhawk? Pug? Jeez, I'm gonna have to google this as it's bugging me now. My OCD...

(In my old D&D campaign, Black Lotus is a very expensive flower drug originating from Cathay (Orient) used by magic-users to enhance spell-casting but at the cost of addiction and insanity. I knew I had stolen the idea from a fantasy novel but couldn't remember which one.)


I too love the art. The colours. The lotus petals in the shade with the night background, the deadly luring scent emanating. So evocative.

For a card that is so niche for Druid, was it so hard to make it level 2? I'm warming to the card but there are so many other cheaper toys. Yes, Beastmasters gain access to range 1 sleep at cost 2. For every other mage, it is better to choose range 2 cheaper Sleep over this.

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on October 10, 2013, 03:11:53 pm
It reminded me that I haven't fed my flying monkeys yet today.

Also, it's a conjuration that attacks. Anyone writing it off without playing it is ignoring this game's history.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 10, 2013, 03:26:24 pm
It reminded me that I haven't fed my flying monkeys yet today.

Is this a knowing hint about the classic fantasy literature reference that can't be named? There was the will-sapping Lotus plant in the Odyssey's Lotus Eaters encounter. Deadly nightshade is Belladonna, or Wolvesbane. There's just too many references, even the card imagery is a blatant homage.

it's a conjuration that attacks. Anyone writing it off without playing it is ignoring this game's history.

Do you mean Akiro's Hammer? (Hey, it's great against control Epics, those rare mana drain match-ups.)

This is no Wizard's Tower, Temple of Light or Ballista, ring. Those were all repeatable benefits (we should not be complaining that a card is not brojen or near-broken but be happy they haven't indulged in excess). This is just a weak Poison Gas Cloud with 1 use of Sleep.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on October 10, 2013, 04:01:37 pm
If memory serves, Black Lotus was a flower in the original Conan novels.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 10, 2013, 04:25:20 pm
Yep. My OCD thanks Google once more...

Lotus = group of opiate drugs in Conan's Hyboria
Black Lotus - soporific hallucinogen
Emerald Lotus - sorcery enhancing (Stygian fave)
Purple Lotus - paralysis (curare)
Gray Lotus - homicidal/suicidal (PCP)

From the few I've read, when Conan visited the immortal Hyperboreans (elves) who jump from the High Tower when eternal life gets too dull, the decadent locals took Black Lotus to while away the years in blissful euphoric sleep.

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on October 10, 2013, 09:59:11 pm
Well, look at that on facebook. Another flower.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Memnaelar on October 11, 2013, 12:46:25 am
That thar's a purty flower.  A one-time dissolve with a regular corrode attack?  I'll take it.  :)

Weird that it's a 2 over the 3 for the Lotus.  If I took the Pepsi Challenge, I'd assume those levels were reversed...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 11, 2013, 03:51:24 am
Yes, I agree that Corrosive Orchid is good in a vacuum. It could be very good (but not broken), for example if there was a card like...

"Renewing Rain"
16 mana, full action, range infinity symbol, Nature Level 4 incantation (crucially no Hydro subtype)
For each of your Plant conjurations in the arena, you may remove it from play then return it to play in that same zone and attached to any object it was previously attached to.

This removes all damage and conditions (like burn) and resets these flowers with Mist tokens, not broken as it's only Plant conjurations. The "may" is because in some cases it will be worse off e.g. mana accumulated on spawnpoints. Magic players will be very familiar with "flicker" effects - leveraging coming-into-play effects is a blue/white strength (my favoruite colours). Here we have a very expensive (>1 turn of mana), uncommon (4 spell points investment), action-intensive (full action) but powerful effect if you build around it to leverage potency.

The fact Mist tokens appear in 2 cards so far indicates there'll probably be a mechanic to refresh. If so, this makes level 3 Lotus good and Level 2 Orchid very good (lower level as Druid has access to Corrode, Dissolve is 1 spell point whilst Sleep is a new frontier for Nature).

If there is a refresh mechanic for Mist tokens, then I offer an apology, Aaron, for slating Nightshade Lotus. Cards in a vacuum eh?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on October 11, 2013, 09:36:17 am
Can someone post the Corrosive Orchid please?  No access to FB at the moment...

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 11, 2013, 10:40:01 am
Can someone post the Corrosive Orchid please?  No access to FB at the moment...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 11, 2013, 11:14:03 am
Druids area control is going to be very annoying. Mage wand/firestorm anybody?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 11, 2013, 11:18:21 am
On reflection, 2 great benefits of (both of) the Flowers are

1. Vine range for Druid Only (with her Ring discount)

Dissolve's main drawback is range 1 (hence why Regrowth Belt was generally better than Regrowth, also can Nullify a Dissolve but not a Dispel, all Wizards cast Dispel cheaper with ring at lower spell point cost, and there is no Purge for equipment). But that doesn't hold true anymore. You pay 6 extra for Explode add-on. Here you pay 6 extra (7-1 ring) for a weak 2 dice corrode attack that persists in the zone until removed. Orchid also helps to address the dominance of Battle Forge as the best spawnpoint for many builds. All clever meta-changers.

2. Bypasses Nullify

Both Dissolve and Sleep can be Nullified but not these Flowers. So no need to first scout if that hidden enchant is a Nullify with Decoy etc. This weakens Wizards' denial-control (especially with Transfusion as a timed counter) which is probably for the best as they dominate the meta currently.


Obviously they could leverage any (yet-to-be released) flicker or unsummon mechanics as they are objects with an incantation attached.


Does anyone spot any other hidden benefits (apart from the obvious spell point cost for Nature mages)?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on October 11, 2013, 11:40:13 am
Can someone post the Corrosive Orchid please?  No access to FB at the moment...

Thank you sir!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 11, 2013, 04:41:31 pm
Here is an update on what I did a couple weeks ago. For those who are not keeping up and are interested with the DvN spoilers. Over the last 28 days we have seen 25 of the cards (not counting the mage cards). If you dig around a bit, you have seen 45% of the new cards in the set of 56 new cards. Spells broken down by Type:

Attack = 1 (5)
Conjurations = 7 (9)
Creatures = 13 (16)
Enchantments = 2 (9)
Equipment = 1 (11)
Incantations = 1 (10)

The last time I wrote this up, I put the numbers of each Type of Spell from the FvM release in parenthesis. This is so we can gauge where we are compared to the DvN release.

So looking where things stand as of today. We are getting close to the release of DvN and here is the break out as of today:

Attack = 1 (5) [3]
Conjurations = 9 (9) [13]
Creatures = 15 (16) [24]
Enchantments = 2 (9) [4]
Equipment = 2 (11) [8]
Incantations = 1 (10) [4]

I have added Square brackets this time. These are my guesses for the number for that spell Type in DvN. This is for new cards only, the Conjurations and Creatures, are a strong probable number, may go up by one but I doubt it. The others are more guesses than anything else, like for equipment there will be at least five pieces but I am guessing a bit more. The last three Attack/Enchantments/Incantations are purely a SWAG...

Braaaiinnnsss!!!!!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: baronzaltor on October 11, 2013, 05:06:55 pm

Does anyone spot any other hidden benefits (apart from the obvious spell point cost for Nature mages)?

Neither are Zone exclusive.. you can put both in the same zone for 5 dice of combined bonus attack.  Or you can grow them under an opponents spawn point, or under your own spawnpoints/treebond to help protect them.

Not really a "hidden" benefit, but a useful aspect.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 11, 2013, 06:41:01 pm
Yes, it is useful. Like Mokhtari or Wizard's Tower being a supplementary feature to their zones. But there must be a finite number of flower varieties. Otherwise you get ready marker stacking issues. For example, say you had this third flower...

Adhesive Lily
7 mana, quick range 1. nature 2, plant flower vine conjuration
0 armour, 7 life, flame +2, hydro immune
range 0-0 hydro 2 dice, 7+ slam, unavoidable
after damage + effects, spend its Mist token to give it Stuck if non-flying (note: slam may drop a flyer)

This would give you 3 poison + 2 acid + 2 hydro dice attack as free actions (ready markers) right after a push or teleport into that zone. Adhesive Lily may spend its Mist to keep the victim there for the horde of Rooted Trees also there to attack. But enough theory-crafting fantasies...



I just thought of a few other benefits of the 2 existing flowers.

3. Hopefully expending Voltaric Shield (at vine range for Druid)

All you need is 1+ critical damage, with 2 dice = 5/9 chance, with 3 dice = 19/27

4. Wastes any Block / Reverse Attack (at vine range for Druid)

Any such defences are wasted as the attack is unavoidable



I like how designers made it Range 0-0 to prevent them being used to distract Guards as it would be too useful. I also note how Sleep and Dissolve are muitually exclusive targets to minimise any stacking abuse. I just got this feeling a ready-marker range 0 attacking conjuration with an incantation attached to it has a lot of hidden utility that I'm not fully appreciating at the moment.

I still think Lotus is 1 level too high if there is no "refresh Mist token" mechanic. But Orchid is sweet in a vacuum, and meta-changing too.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on October 11, 2013, 07:33:41 pm
Does anyone spot any other hidden benefits (apart from the obvious spell point cost for Nature mages)?

Not entirely hidden, but they aren't unique or legendary etc. either you could have multiples of the same flower in play in the same zone or different zones.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Phoenix on October 11, 2013, 08:53:09 pm
I have a general question, I may be missing something, but why are the spoilers scattered to the four winds?  It is not simple to find them.  Some are in the 'news' tab, some are in a half dozen forums, some are only on facebook.  Why is there not just one thread or location on the mage wars site that list and updates the spoilers?


Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 11, 2013, 08:59:00 pm
Part of the fun
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 12, 2013, 04:54:28 am
Not entirely hidden, but they aren't unique or legendary etc. either you could have multiples of the same flower in play in the same zone or different zones.

Hey, Wiz, this was a new rule for me. I only learnt it recently when I tried to have 2 Poison Gas Clouds in the same zone (when testing my Air Wizard Mana Drain book listed in cnoedel's Wizard Control thread). My friend (the one in our group who actually reads and memorises rules entirely instead of guessing with incredibly intuitive rules like Mage Wars) pointed out you can't have multiple conjurations of the same name in the same zone!

It makes sense really, in line with duplicate enchantments rule. Conjurations are attached to its zone or a legal object (like Tanglevine, Quicksand etc). "You can't have duplicate attachments" is a meta-rule in this game.

It's never really been relevant before. Before this set, the only relevance is Poison Gas Cloud, Mangler Caltrops and Wizard's Towers in the same zone in a wizard match-up (never going to happen).

So this means no multiple same flowers in the same zone for abusing the in-zone ready marker attack. They've thought that one through.

However, it does create strange tactics against Druid match-ups. If my mage is in a zone with any Orchid (mine or opponent's if no Mist token), I know I am safe from my opponent Druid's Orchid vine range Dissolve. When my Nature mage casts Lotus to Sleep my Druid opponent's creature, I also create a haven for my own creatures as my opponent can't Lotus vine range Sleep my creature there.

Yes, the Highlander ("there can only be one") rule does create some interesting zonal tactics.

So yet another hidden benefit/drawback of these flowers...

5. They can't be cast on a zone where one already exists, whoever controls it

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on October 12, 2013, 06:32:21 am
Not entirely hidden, but they aren't unique or legendary etc. either you could have multiples of the same flower in play in the same zone or different zones.

Hey, Wiz, this was a new rule for me. I only learnt it recently when I tried to have 2 Poison Gas Clouds in the same zone (when testing my Air Wizard Mana Drain book listed in cnoedel's Wizard Control thread). My friend (the one in our group who actually reads and memorises rules entirely instead of guessing with incredibly intuitive rules like Mage Wars) pointed out you can't have multiple conjurations of the same name in the same zone!

I guess I was thinking about these along the same lines as creatures since they have an attack. This isn't true for walls since they go at the borders, and I've never wanted to put more than one in the same zone before. I guess I would like some confirmation on this though.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 12, 2013, 07:15:53 am
I guess I was thinking about these along the same lines as creatures since they have an attack. This isn't true for walls since they go at the borders, and I've never wanted to put more than one in the same zone before. I guess I would like some confirmation on this though.

Just like you, I was stupefied too! We all consulted the rulebook. But it's there in the rules, p16 of v2 rulebook.

"Most conjurations target a zone and are attached to that zone. When you cast one of these spells, place the conjuration face up in the target zone. A zone may never have multiple conjurations with the same name attached to it."

As for walls, there is a strict 1 wall per border rule (v2 rules p17: "Only one wall can occupy the line between these two zones at a time") which is very intuitive. As walls can be double-edged swords, I've never found an issue with this. I guess it stops you strengthening the same border with a second wall. But walls are niche plays currently, mainly used to block access or line of sight. Of course push through multiple walls of thorns could be fatal if unarmoured. So good thing this intuitive rule exists. There just isn't enough space on the board to stack walls on borders anyway.

Obviously this "no duplicate conjurations" rule has major impact on Flowers.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: baronzaltor on October 12, 2013, 01:25:57 pm
Correct, there cannot be multiples of the same flower in a zone since they are conjurations.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 12, 2013, 07:19:12 pm
As much as I hate to know this rule exists, I unfortunately do and understand why it's there. Without it my Necro build would have 6 poison gas clouds all put in the same zone as me. Anything stays in there and during the upkeep phase gets hit with 12 direct damage.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: echephron on October 13, 2013, 12:56:25 pm
New Card Up: Zombie Brute. Seems almost too strong to me. 11 mana, 3 dark. 10 life. 4 dice +2 bloodthirsty. thats about it.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 13, 2013, 03:28:08 pm
Seems almost too AWESOME  to me. Please guys have 4+ of these in the deck. I love these guys. I was a little uneasy about the low level zombie, but these are going to be amazing.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: IndyPendant on October 13, 2013, 04:58:38 pm
I'm not seeing it.   With no armour, this will go down fast: 2-3 attacks.  Can't be given most buffs, like Rhino Hide/Bear Strength/Vampirism.  Takes 3 spellbook points.  Hard to heal.

Good card, don't get me wrong.  Well worth its casting and spellbook cost, in appropriate decks.  Probably see one or two in most necro decks.  But it doesn't seem incredible to me.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 13, 2013, 05:22:35 pm
First, I think Resiliency is being looked past. Sure they don't have armor, but they are still going to be hard to take down.  With a idol of pestilance or other direct damage conjurations, almost all creatures will be damaged, therefore Bloodthirsty will almost always be in effect. In other words, no need for bear strength as he already gets it. Of course going up against a grizzly or golemn he doesn't stand a chance,  but he isn't the BIG baddies for the Necro, he's the step up from the low level zombies. Unless you have a beastmaster playing swarm with low level mobs the low level zombies would very rarely kill/turn a creature. On the other hand the brutes have the potential to 6 dice attack with bloodthirsty, add a acolyte and that's another dice. That's not to mention any further buffs or equipment induced buffs that are sure to add further damage potential. Plus their attack is a quick attack so they also have the potential to be decent guards. Though I still think I would choose a skeletal Knight for that job. They are not the most amazing card that has ever been put out, far from it, but they are a good card that beefs up the Necro's book creature wise. Plus 11 mana, come on! Love it.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 13, 2013, 05:48:07 pm
It does seem incredibly good. Compare it to other Bloodthirsty creatures, the Dire Wolf or (Legendary) Goran Pet Werewolf.

Maybe we compare it to similar nonliving under-costed Iron Golem? Both level 3s have very high armour (Brute's Resilient = infinite) and 6 Dice Attack (Brute only versus Wounded Living, very easy with Idol of Pestilence and Nonliving and Necromancer's Immunity). Golem has 3 more life (easily balanced by Resilient), Burnproof (balanced by Lightning +2 vulnerability) and very useful Unmovable. Zombies have far more support (spawn points. Acolyte, Ziggurat etc). Most importantly a Golem is Slow whilst Zombie Brute can always move 1 and attack, hence is always a threat. When you compare the stats, you would have thought the cheaper creature would be the Golem. But the Brute is actually 2 cheaper than the under-costed Iron Golem? At least Iron Golem will beat it due to Bloodthirsty not triggering. But iron Golem is Slow, there is never a straight match-up against Slow creatures. To move 1 and attack yet still be as dangerous as an Iron Golem against Wounded Living is a big deal here.

Something seems really strange here. I know this is looking at cards in a vacuum. A poor card can become good if it is supported. But an over-powered card will always be that. If there's some sort of Silver Bullet against Resilient, it will be a clumsy balancing mechanic to rely on. "Oh I didn't pack my Anti-Zombie Spray spell in this book, I lose". Etherian Lifetree does not benefit Nonliving but then Pestilence and Deathlock does not hurt them either. That +2 vs. Undead of Kralathor, with its explanatory flavour text, looked like blatant balancing to get Druid on par. But what about the rest of the mages?

Both Zombie Minion and Zombie Brute look so good, well above the curve for return on investment (7 and 11) because they are Resilient. There must be a drawback we are missing. We have to trust it is balanced, of course they must have play-tested this thoroughly. I just feel we have found our new Iron Golem here...

Whilst every game like this will have a small element of power creep to keep enthusiasts interested, the trick is surely to keep it as small as possible? Ensure older cards don't become obsolete in comparison. These Resilient under-costed Zombies seem slightly too good...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on October 13, 2013, 07:22:58 pm
I'm not seeing it.   With no armour, this will go down fast: 2-3 attacks.  Can't be given most buffs, like Rhino Hide/Bear Strength/Vampirism.  Takes 3 spellbook points.  Hard to heal.

Good card, don't get me wrong.  Well worth its casting and spellbook cost, in appropriate decks.  Probably see one or two in most necro decks.  But it doesn't seem incredible to me.

You've probably figured this out by now from other people's comments, but this is a very silly comment. Resilient is effectively infinite armor.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 13, 2013, 07:51:16 pm
You've probably figured this out by now from other people's comments, but this is a very silly comment. Resilient is effectively infinite armor.

I think he simply hadn't read (or simply forgot) what Resilient meant. It's easy enough, it's only on one of the many pages in the News.

Resilient is better than infinite armour. Piercing grants no benefit. Corrosive may deal zombies direct damage but is rarer than piercing (and is also useful against armoured). Critical damage is also a very rare trait, useful against both. Resilient totally nerfs a trait: piercing. And unlike Incorporeal, the News section boasts there is no way round it.

One repercussion of Resilient is weenies are less handicapped. 6 Foxes roll 18 dice total and deal average 12 damage against armour 1. 3 Iron Golems also roll 18 dice total but deal 15 damage against armour 1. Against Resilient both deal average 9 damage. But all this does is strengthen weenie in comparison to bigger creature. The reality is both sets of creatures deal average 9 damage, not 12 or 15!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 13, 2013, 07:53:11 pm
I'm not seeing it.   With no armour, this will go down fast: 2-3 attacks.  Can't be given most buffs, like Rhino Hide/Bear Strength/Vampirism.  Takes 3 spellbook points.  Hard to heal.

Good card, don't get me wrong.  Well worth its casting and spellbook cost, in appropriate decks.  Probably see one or two in most necro decks.  But it doesn't seem incredible to me.

You've probably figured this out by now from other people's comments, but this is a very silly comment. Resilient is effectively infinite armor.

Much like the Earth Elemental with its 34 Life, this guy is going to be a chore to take down but if you bring a high Armor critter to battle it will go down after three or four attacks. I wonder if the Walled Sniper would work well against the zombies.....
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 13, 2013, 08:17:42 pm
Resilient is just so thematic and I really have to take my hat off to the designers/play testers who came up and tested this. It makes me think of the horde of zombies getting chopped to bits by machine guns, some go down, but most just keep on trudging along. Brilliant! Well done guys.

As far as walled sniper, I would think any ranged fighters are going to be the way to go. Otherwise of course you risk giving your opponent an extra zombie with which to kill you (assuming they have the ziggurat).

Deck, i'm not so sure about the idea that low level creatures will be less handicapped. Statistically so, but overall gameplay I could see them being used even less against a Necromancer. The mage will have to consider each mob he summons may be turned. Therefore they will most likely summon only a handful of big baddies. In conjunction with that if they summon low level mobs the direct damage from pestilence or any other ongoing poisons might kill them before they are even able to be an effective threat. Which would then give the Necro graveyard mana that he didn't have to do anything for. I would think that going up against a Necro you would use as little living creatures as possible, but if you did the highest hit points possible. In other words i'll be fighting lots of golemns in the coming days.

I'm very excited, the Necromancer is going to be a very formidable mage, especially against creature based books. Not yet decided on Forcemaster/ Unliving i.e. Golemn builds.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 13, 2013, 09:41:45 pm
Deck, i'm not so sure about the idea that low level creatures will be less handicapped. Statistically so, but overall gameplay I could see them being used even less against a Necromancer. The mage will have to consider each mob he summons may be turned. Therefore they will most likely summon only a handful of big baddies. In conjunction with that if they summon low level mobs the direct damage from pestilence or any other ongoing poisons might kill them before they are even able to be an effective threat. Which would then give the Necro graveyard mana that he didn't have to do anything for. I would think that going up against a Necro you would use as little living creatures as possible, but if you did the highest hit points possible. In other words i'll be fighting lots of golemns in the coming days.

I take your point about reanimates. I had not considered the Ziggurat: it's a 2 armour 8 life Epic conjuration that must be taken out against a zombie themed Necromancer build as that action advantage is too good. But even with it in play, low level weenies feed the Graveyard less than any Elite. Etherian Lifetree pumps them all more. Although I do admit Foxes are particularly bad against the Necromancer as they come back at normal speed. My own feeling is that Straywood Beastmaster will run 6 Falcons though because of Etherian Lifetree.

I actually think there is an addendum they should make to "Lumbering": this creature cannot guard. Not being able to double-move only really hurts against ranged. Not being able to guard as well (who has ever heard of a zombie guarding - skeletons do that work) gives the trait some relevance. I know Bloodthirsty can prevent you guarding but that does not prevent that initial guard marker being placed.

What the living factions really need is something like this card...

"All You Can Eat Buffet", Nature 1 Arcane 1 (genetic animal experiment, gigantic mutant pig)
No attack, 0 armour, Life 31, Regenerate 3, Slow, this creature always has 1 damage that can never be removed
This creature triggers Bloodthirsty creatures in adjacent zones with LOS to move to it if no other Wounded target.

This would be the ideal lure to distract all those chasing zombies! Until it meets its sausage maker in the sky, poor thing...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on October 13, 2013, 09:45:12 pm
Indeed good points Joe. The Necromancer is looking like he is going to be able to stand toe to toe with the Wizard and if the playtester's claims of balance between him and the Druid hold true we have two powerhouse mages coming out. It seems as though Beastmaster and Warlock are getting a signiifcant boost through this set as well (though maybe a bit less for the Warlock). I have to wonder how the other Mages are going to fair after this release though. Does anyone see anything spoiled so far that helps the Priestess or Forcemaster? There seems to be a little bit for the Warlord though he obviously needs a lot (and I mean a lot) more to actually be in play.

I am a little worried that the Wizard was designed in such a way that he is uniquely positioned to benefit from just about every powerful card that comes out no what the designers intentions are moving forward. Giving him training in Arcane and a Minor school with no weakness is just crazy flexible since Arcane supports virtually every style of build.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on October 13, 2013, 09:46:42 pm
I actually think there is an addendum they should make to "Lumbering": this creature cannot guard. Not being able to double-move only really hurts against ranged. Not being able to guard as well (who has ever heard of a zombie guarding - skeletons do that work) gives the trait some relevance. I know Bloodthirsty can prevent you guarding but that does not prevent that initial guard marker being placed.

Oof good point guarding Zombies just seems all sorts of wrong and seems especially problematic with large zombie hoards forming.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 13, 2013, 09:56:00 pm
Yeah i'll give you that, as much as I don't want to. Lumbering should prevent guarding. Zombies roam, simple as that.


What the living factions really need is something like this card...

"All You Can Eat Buffet", Nature 1 Arcane 1 (genetic animal experiment, gigantic mutant pig)
No attack, 0 armour, Life 31, Regenerate 3, Slow, this creature always has 1 damage that can never be removed
This creature triggers Bloodthirsty creatures in adjacent zones with LOS to move to it if no other Wounded target.

This would be the ideal lure to distract all those chasing zombies! Until it meets its sausage maker in the sky, poor thing...


HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, amazing!!!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 13, 2013, 10:07:30 pm
I am a little worried that the Wizard was designed in such a way that he is uniquely positioned to benefit from just about every powerful card that comes out no what the designers intentions are moving forward. Giving him training in Arcane and a Minor school with no weakness is just crazy flexible since Arcane supports virtually every style of build.

I couldn't agree more. Why the wizard gets not only the most versatile school of magic (Arcane) and any element is beyond me. When you compare other mages almost all of them have a nemesis school (warlock to holy, etc), or a severe handicap (warlord to arcane, etc). Honestly I think the wizard needs a simple errata and just take off the element. He will still be a top contender, but just not so overly powerful that it becomes a bit silly. That way he can be more like the beastmaster, no handicap in any real way but also limited in versatility. There is a reason why there are so many wizards running around after all.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: IndyPendant on October 14, 2013, 03:17:03 am
"Silly"?  That seems a little harsh--although admittedly I had forgotten that Resilient effectively plays as infinite armour, so it's not going down in two hits then. ; )  Still, the rest of what I said does apply, as well as the fact that Bloodthirsty comes with inherent drawbacks--including not being able to guard btw, if there are any damaged living creatures in its zone.

Again, to clarify: I'm not saying it's a bad card.  It's clearly a good card, one that will be included in almost any necro build.  I'm just saying I don't see it as crazy imbalanced.  That's the perception I'm responding to, here.

*shrug*  I haven't been playing all that long though--about two months, now.  Maybe time will prove me wrong.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on October 14, 2013, 08:42:48 am
@Deckbuilder - Most zombies are pests, and even the ones that are not have bloodthirsty. This greatly decreases your tactical options against living foes, if the player is cunning. I know I've left wounded creatures behind so that Zombies couldn't follow me.

In general Zombies require a very different bag of tricks than most players are use to.  I found wall of steel incredibly effective. They don't get any bonus dice against it and it's high armor take quite a while to take down. However, Lumbering makes simply walking around the wall very time consuming.

Also, Quicksand is incredible versus bloodthirsty foes. If there is something wounded then they can't attempt their escape roll.

I think that Force Crush is going to be one of the best cards to combat large dangerous Zombies. It does direct damage that is not poison, and it completely immobilizes them. Forced movement is always amazing.

In the end, yes this guy is pretty dang sweet, but the tools are there to help deal with him.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 14, 2013, 09:58:06 am
Also, Quicksand is incredible versus bloodthirsty foes. If there is something wounded then they can't attempt their escape roll.
Holy Mojoly Batman!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 14, 2013, 11:30:21 am
There must be a drawback we are missing. We have to trust it is balanced, of course they must have play-tested this thoroughly.

@ Laddinfance. I did couch my concerns with a get-out clause. Great points though and you certainly put me in my place! :)

Let's focus on Zombie traits then.

Lumbering

I did realise walls cause Lumbering trouble, manned Archer Tower behind of course. Luckily this is a mainstream build. I suspect this will become even more popular after the DvN release. It's really nice how currently under-used walls will have gained more tactical relevance.

The fact that Zombie Minions were Pests was the main reason why I could see how to deal with them. Anybody can always get away (until surrounded, like in zombie movies). Although a zombie foxhunt would be amusing. Where are the zombie hounds...?

Force Wave is really strong (and points cheap) against Lumbering zombies (also to move ranged units into position). You trade quick for full action with a Force Push or Jet Stream (maybe free with a Tower), much like against Slow threat. But it's like the Boxer vs. the Wrestler. At first, the Boxer will get some good hits in with his reach. But once the Resilient Wrestler makes contact, the Boxer is in big trouble.

Lumbering is bad if you're also a Pest (like Minion) but Brute is not one. It's a handicap against ranged or walls. It's also bad against vine range, allowing blindsiding attacks far from you. It ain't that bad in other cases which sadly is the majority of situations in a normal game.

Bloodthirsty

Wow. I'd never thought of the interaction of Quicksand with Bloodthirsty. I'd always looked at Quicksand as just this highly variable length (like burn) restraint + distraction action with a 24% kill chance after 4 escape attempts. I have considered it with Sleep but paying 4x level and 2 fast actions for a 4-round delay where the victim may be woken and escape seemed a bit too combo-tastic, not particularly mana efficient. However, unlike Pop-Up Sniper, running Quicksand is a luxury for anyone outside of Earth Wizard or Warlord. I've run Quicksand with a regenerating Thorg's Taunt before to great benefit. Doh! I should've extended its use to other compulsion effects. Nice!

Bloodthirsty is a lovely double-edged sword (or drawback if +0). I already mentioned this prevents guarding while there is wounded living around. In practice, you would use support (like Pestilence) to trigger it and can sequence attacks to mitigate its drawback in most cases. You leave a wounded sacrifice but it's at low life so my Minion just takes it out (and maybe converts it) then my Brute is free to follow you (having hindered opposing mage leaving its zone).

My main issue with Bloodthirsty is it is not forced to go after the least life. Most games aren't a theoretical masterpieces of elegant tactical manoeuvring. They soon devolve into a grand melee free-for-all. The opposing mage is often wounded and mobility hobbled in some way (Enfeebled?). Bloodthirsty really has no drawback in this situation, only its extra dice benefit. As mages often have the most life remaining, if Bloodthirsty forced you to choose the target with least life (choose if equal), it would be far more debilitating than it is.

Resilient

You mention Force Crush as a direct damage solution. A kill using this requires far more than the 11 mana it costs to summon a Brute at equal 3 spell points spend (double if not Forcemaster). Whilst Steel Wall and Quicksand with wounded target are nice Earth plays, I really can't see Force Crush as an elegant mana-efficient and spell points-efficient solution.

Water's acidic Corrode is obviously direct damage of choice (damage now not later). Books need Corrode in case of zombie match-ups? Air pushes and Fire burns. So Earth is thankfully weakest here. Yes, I can see that zombies will encourage more elemental attack spells. That's a really clever meta-changer actually. Because the game temporarily lost something thematically "special" with the current lack of zonal attacks and distance nuking (except as a finisher).

Incorporeal is 1/3 damage per die, armour irrelevant
Resilient is 1/2 damage per die, armour irrelevant
Normal is 1/2 damage per die, armour irrelevant + 1/2 damage per die, armour relevant but mitigated by piercing

I like how Resilient says "your piercing does nothing to me, acid however is not so good". It oozes with zombie flavour. It just that without anti-Resilient tools as stated in News, it just seems too good. There is Falcon Precision, Divine Might, Piercing Strike etc. But there is no silver bullet for Resilient so leaving the zombie's life so high seems dangerously optimal...

Nonliving

So they cannot be healed or buffed by most enchantments. Poison Immunity is great and can be leveraged with Pestilence (synergy with Bloodthirsty, Necromancer). In addition Deathlock can nerf the Living to share Nonliving's Finite Life. There are also a lot of effects you are immune to (Bleed, Wounded Prey, curses etc). In a well built deck, Nonliving (with its accompanying Psychic Immunity in most cases) can be a boon. Ask Earth Wizard with 4 Iron Golems, Pestilence, Deathlock etc.

Yes, Holy's Light is good against Nonliving. And there is Etherian Lifetree now to make it more of a drawback. But Nonliving is simply an alternate lifestyle choice. You still have those same 120 spell points, you just spend them differently around your Nonliving creature base.

Summary

Both Steel Wall and Quicksand are indeed great answers for zombies but too niche outside of Earth Wizard or Warlord. Force Crush seems so mana-inefficient (and simply Dispelled) to slowly remove a Brute that cost just 11 mana. Force Wave however is very cheap.

As I said before, of course you guys have playtested this. But what this says is that every book needs to have anti-zombie tech (or just hope you don't match-up). This further erodes your spell point pool, preventing you from imposing your own game plan consistently.

Because Nonliving is so different to Living in how to deal with it, some builds are pretty much stiffed (Jokhtari's Dire Wolves Bloodthirsty Bleed Wounded Prey with Pestilence Deathlock, Forcemaster's Psychic Controller etc). The reason Earth Wizard is so strong is because it plays very different to all other builds. Necromancer has the same benefits here, but with better support and synergies.

What the Necromancer Zombie build may do to the meta is stifle proactive strategies by spending points on reactive what-if solutions.

The cards previewed are mostly really exciting though, completely game changing. Just worried about Brute unbalancing a game I love.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on October 14, 2013, 12:04:08 pm
Excellent Summary Deckbuilder! I will add that fire is fantastic against zombies as well.  Many times playtesting, I simply avoided the zombie brutes. By using tanglevines and other cards that give the stuck condition I was really able to control those creatures.  I absolutely agree that Nonliving is a boon in many circumstances.

One thing to keep in mind, you don't always have to kill the creature to deal with it. Enchantments like Agony are fantastic against almost any creature. Also, Chains of Agony is an odd source of direct damage, and Molock's Torment can help take zombies down.

One of the things I love about zombies is that they encourage people to look back at old cards and see what will really be effective.

Thank you again for this overview, Deckbuilder. It may be worth building a thread about dealing with resilient creatures. This is good tactical advice.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 14, 2013, 12:08:46 pm
I never considered force crush. Further concern for forcemasters. However, I think this card can be said for almost every big baddie. Thankfully with the huge upkeep cost it can't be spammed. 
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 14, 2013, 12:16:29 pm
The Priest's Malakai's Fire will be very handy here, throw in the Daze/Stun potential and +2 Nonliving of the Staff of Asyra plus Ring of Light and I would add in a Bear Strength (9 Die Stack + Burn) and he will take the brute down quicker than your average bear boo boo.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: baronzaltor on October 14, 2013, 01:56:40 pm
The thing with Resilient is that creatures who have it had their health lowered to compensate..which is why a Zombie Brute has 10 health whereas a Bridge Troll has 16, and other creatuers in that cost/level family have health in the teens.

Because of their lower health, lucky rolls and direct damage are more meaningful against them.  A lucky crit heavy roll is going to hurt a Knight of Westlock, but 6-7 health isnt going to put him out of the game.   A lucky crit roll on a zombie will usually kill it though, or at least put you most of the way there on a bigger one.  The thing with Resilient is its a game of extremes.  Some games it will feel like you cant kill the fodder zombies no matter what you do.  Then in other games, youll one-shot them every attack.

Another good source of direct damage is Chains of Agony.. its only 2 mana to cast and 1 to reveal , combined with push/jetstream/surging wave and/or kiting you can make lower-mid level zombies kill themselves just by taking move actions.   If you happen to be a Warlock, Chains of Agony+Molochs Torment is a good way to melt zombies and you get your Chains when they die.

Ironically, Warlock is one of the better mages for dealing with Zombies.  Curse Weaving, Molochs Torment, and Demonhide Armor are all sources of direct damage combined with his natural access to fire. (The Fire damage barrier is also a good play against them if you arent a Dark Mage for demonhide armor)  As bad as Gate to Hell is, this set makes it one of the best anti-zombie cards in the game since it can get burn tokens on an arena full of zombies in one big burst. If you get lucky on your rolls you can melt most of the hoard in one pop.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 14, 2013, 02:56:28 pm
Another good source of direct damage is Chains of Agony.. its only 2 mana to cast and 1 to reveal , combined with push/jetstream/surging wave and/or kiting you can make lower-mid level zombies kill themselves just by taking move actions.   If you happen to be a Warlock, Chains of Agony+Molochs Torment is a good way to melt zombies and you get your Chains when they die.

I think what Deck is saying is that due to these extremes each mage is going to have to seriously consider using  precious spell points to put these cards in their book just to compensate when they wouldn't have otherwise. Therefore lowing their normal strategy/attack. This is especially true in a tournament setting due to the 'what if' factor. I am quite happy about this though. This expansion is really going to add alot of variety and options to our existing game. If you can do that each expansion you guys are ahead of the curve, as alot of expansions just give more of the same. I'm quite curious what is in store for the future. BEST GAME EVER!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 14, 2013, 03:12:30 pm
@Baron. This all makes imminent sense, greater variance in survivability etc. Like greater variance with smaller dice rolls, but in reverse.

I really like how mobility and board control (e.g. Lumbering, push, Chains) are interacting to add even more layers of subtlety to the game.

So Fire seems to be great against both Necromancer and Druid. Warlock gets a nifty curseweaving card in Rise Again and retains access to burn dealing creatures. Unloved fire demons finally take prime spot for Bloodreaper status. So Warlock aggro is back. Burn, baby, burn!

But Fire Wizard also looks a good meta-choice with Jelly cleaning the arena of Druid's conjurations and Rooted creatures (and a Teleport kill zone), corroding Resilients, not hurt by Necromancer's anti-living tech (Bloodthirsty, Pestilence, Deathlock etc) with Wizard's Tower for attack utility (Acid Ball and Jet Stream only cost 2 spell points), Suppression Cloak and other Mana Drain tech for Swarms and Few Bigs. From cards previewed so far, "Jelly Fire" will be a nice control build to fit the meta after this set comes out.
 
I see most other mages have been strengthened (e.g raptors have Jokhtari focus damage written all over them to compensate for her bad Necro match-up) but I'm gonna back "Jelly Fire" to be a tier 1 control build in the new meta (along with Warlock aggro of course). You can just Jelly Pit with 4 Jelly, Fire and Teleport Transfusion but both new mages look backseat generals so this (thankfully) won't work as well.

Maybe Warlord with Pop-Up Sniper and Quicksand Thorg gets his day in the spotlight? I just can't see it, sadly.

Great thinking behind this set, team. I am ecstatic to find all my concerns misplaced, whether too weak or too strong. So all change soon.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 14, 2013, 03:56:22 pm
I think what Deck is saying is that due to these extremes each mage is going to have to seriously consider using  precious spell points to put these cards in their book just to compensate when they wouldn't have otherwise. Therefore lowing their normal strategy/attack. This is especially true in a tournament setting due to the 'what if' factor. I am quite happy about this though. This expansion is really going to add alot of variety and options to our existing game. If you can do that each expansion you guys are ahead of the curve, as alot of expansions just give more of the same. I'm quite curious what is in store for the future. BEST GAME EVER!

I see what you are saying, but isn't that the point of the game. I have to build a spellbook to enable me to defeat my opponent and his spellbook. How can you cheer and be excited about the awesomeness that is the DvN expansion and then complain that you have to change your spellbook to adapt vs. new mages. You don't have too, don't get the expansion and keep your current builds "good". I am not trying to be mean or aggressive here, I just don't get the dichotomy of loving the expansion and then complaining about the idea of having to adapt your spellbooks to the new mages in the expansion. It is implicit isn't it?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 14, 2013, 04:11:40 pm
sIKE, you misunderstand, I was saying that I think the fact that each expansion throws the current metta on it's ear is such an amazing thing, and good for the overall longevity of the game. I in no way am complaining about that. At no part did I say that it was a bad thing. I did however start the message with "I think what Deck is saying is that due to..." and I could be wrong, but I don't think either of us were stating that the change and fact that you will have to conform to the new expansion defensively is a bad thing. I think that any and all changes as long as they remain balanced are good for the game. Mage Wars started out being on the more complicated side of games, expansions are only going to add to that. For the beginner player that may be fairly daunting, but for those who have engrossed ourselves in this experience, further decisions/complications/ stratagems/ defensive and offensive possibilities can only be a good thing. Hopefully that makes sense and you get my meaning now  :D
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 14, 2013, 04:15:32 pm
ooops - ninja'd

How can you cheer and be excited about the awesomeness that is the DvN expansion and then complain that you have to change your spellbook to adapt vs. new mages. You don't have too, don't get the expansion and keep your current builds "good". I am not trying to be mean or aggressive here, I just don't get the dichotomy of loving the expansion and then complaining about the idea of having to adapt your spellbooks to the new mages in the expansion. It is implicit isn't it?

Erm. I've really been excited over this set. But also worried that the game is diversifying into "having the right tech" to defeat your match-up. In a game of "pick", this binary 0/1 aspect is far more visible than "well, I put in 8 sideboard cards and I saw none of them" which happens in Magic tournaments. The game's greatest strength makes this a delicate balance.

You test which other builds causes your build the most problems, then compromise your game plan (weakening yourself against builds you are not worried about) to add cards to defeat those builds that do cause you most trouble. This "testing against the gauntlet" is pretty standard in competitive play with customisable games.

However, the big difference with Mage Wars is "pick your card". Silver bullets can always be your next spell.

An example: in the days of pre-nerf Temple of Light, my Fire Wizard had Angel of Light and Lord of Fire as his only 2 creatures. Because I found one of them was always the perfect weapon with so many match-ups. The fact they were Legendary and could deny your opponent playing them (nobody expects the Wizard to open with them) was a bonus. With Armour augmented by Shield, the Vampiric Bear Strength flyer with Mongoose Agility and Nullify protection was the perfect precision weapon with multiple Battle Fury. It was a silly local meta choice (a single day round-robin knowing what opponents play) but illustrates the value of silver bullets in extreme.

I think what Joe was saying (or how I interpreted it) is in a tournament, "match-up variability" becomes greater as the card pool advances, adding more randomness to results. He obviously loves the game and compliments the expansion for adding so much. Just bemoans the fact that variety means more dilution of your own core idea to have those pickable silver bullets against an increasing number of mage builds. The game becomes more challenging which is good.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 14, 2013, 05:04:45 pm
What the Necromancer Zombie build may do to the meta is stifle proactive strategies by spending points on reactive what-if solutions.
@Deck and @Joe

This was what stuck me and prompted my write up. The game as it grows will get more complex and evolve. If that doesn't fit to your style needs that is the great thing about the game, you don't have to grow with it. You can stay where you are at and continue to play, what is IMNSHO, the best game out there.

Expansions cause growing pains and will change both the local meta and the tourney meta. Look at Battle Fury. It was clarified in the FAQ for FvM to say that it caused two separate attacks and resulting melee bonus stacks. So from Core to FvM we get clarification on the cards and it mechanics. After CoK we see it get Nerfed badly with AW saying it was never the intent of the card to cause two attack actions (even though they clarified in the FAQ that it was exactly the intent). Growing pains. If your fears on the uber zombie come to fruition it will be nerfed....

Zombie Brute - I look and think the Necromancers Steel Claw. I know how to deal with it and really don't think that it is that much to fear unlike the obviously over powered Wizards Tower.

Speaking of the of the tourney meta, I find it fascinating (in the truest Spock voice in your head) that in the Battle of the Three Rivers tourney this weekend a Forcemaster and a Beastmaster came out on top. I would love to know what other types of mages were played and if all matches went to time and if any had to use the tie-breaker to determine the winner of the match.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 14, 2013, 05:08:52 pm

I think what Joe was saying (or how I interpreted it) is in a tournament, "match-up variability" becomes greater as the card pool advances, adding more randomness to results. He obviously loves the game and compliments the expansion for adding so much. Just bemoans the fact that variety means more dilution of your own core idea to have those pickable silver bullets against an increasing number of mage builds. The game becomes more challenging which is good.

Well done. Exactly what I was hoping to convey. I'm sure it helps that I heard these words in a Charles Bronson like English accent. Everything sounds so much better in an English accent...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: wtcannonjr on October 14, 2013, 06:36:51 pm
The Priest's Malakai's Fire will be very handy here, throw in the Daze/Stun potential and +2 Nonliving of the Staff of Asyra plus Ring of Light and I would add in a Bear Strength (9 Die Stack + Burn) and he will take the brute down quicker than your average bear boo boo.

I thought that Psychic Immunity meant that Daze and Stun did not affect these creatures since these are Psychic Conditions. 
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on October 14, 2013, 07:36:16 pm
The Priest's Malakai's Fire will be very handy here, throw in the Daze/Stun potential and +2 Nonliving of the Staff of Asyra plus Ring of Light and I would add in a Bear Strength (9 Die Stack + Burn) and he will take the brute down quicker than your average bear boo boo.

I thought that Psychic Immunity meant that Daze and Stun did not affect these creatures since these are Psychic Conditions.

They are not psychic conditions. Sleep states: "This is a psychic condition" neither Daze or Stun indicate that they are psychic anywhere in the text, nor do they appear with the psychic symbol.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 14, 2013, 07:39:38 pm
In 'Land of the Dead' Zombies were Stunned/Dazed by fireworks...Solid evidence that it's possible. Boom, riddle answered, problem put to bed!!! NEXT
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 14, 2013, 08:09:52 pm
The Priest's Malakai's Fire will be very handy here, throw in the Daze/Stun potential and +2 Nonliving of the Staff of Asyra plus Ring of Light and I would add in a Bear Strength (9 Die Stack + Burn) and he will take the brute down quicker than your average bear boo boo.

I thought that Psychic Immunity meant that Daze and Stun did not affect these creatures since these are Psychic Conditions.

Psychic (Damage Type)
Invisible mental or telepathic effect or assault. Psychic spells and attacks can cause the Stun, Daze, or Sleep condition.

Daze
Creature is disoriented and/or blinded. Whenever this creature makes an attack, roll the effect die at the end of the Declare Attack Step. If the result is 7 or higher, the attack is resolved normally. If the result is 6 or less, the attack “misses” its target and skips to Step 5 of the attack sequence (Additional Strikes). If it makes a Zone Attack, only check once: the entire attack either fails or succeeds normally. If a creature has more than one Daze on it, roll only one time to see if the creature misses. In addition, the Dazed creature suffers a -2 penalty to all Defense rolls for each Daze marker it has. All Daze markers are removed at the end of the creature’s Action Phase. Daze has a removal cost of 2. Conjurations cannot be Dazed.

Stun
Creature is Incapacitated. All Stun markers are removed at the end of the creature’s Action Phase. Stun has a removal cost of 4. Cannot affect conjurations.

Sleep:
This is a Psychic condition. This creature is in a deep sleep and is Incapacitated. If this creature receives any damage, remove Sleep and replace it with a Daze marker (which is conveniently printed on the other side of the Sleep marker). Sleep has a removal cost equal to the sleeping creature’s Level.

The damage type here is Light damage so the way I read things and through the Codex several times carefully Stun or Daze are not necessarily a result of Psychic conditions but may be caused by a Psychic attack. Where as Sleep is defined as a Psychic condition. So the Daze/Stun potential of the Staff is not an effect of a Psychic attack but of a Light attack.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 14, 2013, 11:16:54 pm
Now this one scares me........the Growth markers can make this guy very very scary very quickly!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 14, 2013, 11:37:10 pm
Ummmmm ;D
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: aquestrion on October 15, 2013, 12:32:29 am
At least it is not resilient
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 15, 2013, 02:17:49 am
It's recycling for the Skeleton build. Even then, I think I'll first cast the solid stats of a Skeleton Knight for the same cost, using the Ghoul to clean up when it dies. That loss of tempo giving up its attack to Grow is what puts me off (Kralathor and Shaggoth-Zura Grow without this tempo loss). I think the card is slightly "win more" and "win later". The object is to kill the enemy mage, not to have the biggest creature in the arena. If you are doing badly, you will not use the quick action to Grow when killing off that threat (who killed your skeleton) or guarding that conjuration or mage is more important.

It's no resilient Shaggoth-Zura (cost 8 zombie) who as a free action feeds on any near dead Slow reanimates from Ziggurat (that its killing conveniently reanimates where it stands, feeding Graveyard during lulls). Ghoul is not synergetic with zombies as it competes for corpses (in a meta filled with Devour like Jelly and Kralathor) hence is for other undead builds.

Skeleton builds will have one Ghoul as a "Cleaner", Zombies may have one as back-up to recycle corpses if ever Epic Ziggurat falls. But Mage Wars really does not have that many creature deaths (which is why Graveyard is not as good as it looks). Whilst this set promotes Swarm, a Few Big Elites will still be the majority of match-ups and this stifles the potential of cards like this. So its usefulness is reliant on opponent's build to some extent (can always recycle its own swarm but then it's frontline feeding instead of guarding or counter-attacking).

It's not shabby, it's nice they nodded to World War Z's super-fast zombie archetype and at the same time filled the corpse-eating Ghoul scavenger fantasy trope. But unlike the Brute with its 6 dice (with Idol) resilient 10 for cost 11 (Brute Pit: put 4 of them together, Teleport mage in with Transfusion nonsense, watch them follow the mage attacking it), I thankfully can't see much scope for abuse with this one.

Nope, I have to disagree, sIKE. This card is good "clean" fun but it does not worry me as much as the under-costed brutality of the Brute. Time will tell.

I have to add I'm very impressed by the green recycling sensibilities of the undead, so eco-friendly cleaning the arena of unsightly coprses (when they don't just get up and walk), they are well ahead of their time. The flavour text for the Ghoul should be "waste not, want not"...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Qube on October 15, 2013, 09:04:48 am
I could see myself adding a couple of these ghouls to my warlock deck.  They would work pretty well with some darkfene bats... your enemy must focus the bats to avoid rot, so your ghouls are free to either eat bat corpses or attack (depending on position).
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 15, 2013, 10:27:12 am
@Deckbuilder

I agree with you on many of the reasons you state you prefer one card over the other.

To me though the Zombies are not "slow" they can only move one zone (without a Push, which at the most can be done once or twice around (familiars  don't count as they are not played much at all) a round so with a bit of skillful play I can avoid and with bloodthirsty can easily distract them. This guy with Fast can get around the board really fast with a base 4 dice attack with Piercing +1. Yes late game I might not want to give up that attack for the Growth marker but early and mid-game "Each Growth marker provides Melee +1 and Innate Life +3" is a no brainer even with a few mids/bigs strategy.

The Necro's guys are not going to be easily buffed, so what you get is what you get when they are cast. So Growth Markers will be a big part of the strategy when playing this guy and since the only requirement here is Corporeal Creature like Kralathor (Shaggoth is Friendly Zombie only) you are going to want to use Growth Marker when the opportunity presents to get the guys large and fearsome.

As I have said before the Transfusion / Pit play would be the result of your opponent playing badly and letting the opposing mage have 7-8 rounds with no pressure to set all of it up. 

I guess I am thinking less Zombie Builds or Skeleton builds but a Ghoul / Wraith build focus for my first custom Necro build.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 15, 2013, 12:32:48 pm
I could see myself adding a couple of these ghouls to my warlock deck.  They would work pretty well with some darkfene bats... your enemy must focus the bats to avoid rot, so your ghouls are free to either eat bat corpses or attack (depending on position).

Nice. Damned if you do (kill the bats). Damned if you don't.

I confess I've never played bats (d12 phobia) but this is simple synergy. Great how DvN gives current unloved cards new life.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 15, 2013, 04:21:36 pm
Again another fantastically thematic card. Reeks of dark magic!

For me this card is very situational. I'm still mulling it over whether this will even be in my book. Possibly leaning more towards yes for a skeleton based book. I don't know. First your opponet plays a huge part on his success, something i'm not generally a fan of. As mentioned in a normal game not too many creatures die. So initially Ravenous would normally be one or two squares away just waiting around for things to die in order to become better. You wouldn't want to really attack with it if anything was remotely close to dying, that's a problem for me. I'm not sure I get that. Why not just summon a better mob to begin with. This reminds me a lot of the veteran status for Warlord. I think all those who have played warlord can agree that it doesn't really play that well due to lack of multiple creature deaths. And they just get veteran after the kill, they don't have to use their action in order to get the promotion.  The shaggoth seems so much better. It gets to absorb zombies close to death for growth but would not be on the backfront waiting for them to get low. He would also be adding to offense. Definitely not the counter to the Druid's Kralathor who just gets the growth automatically. For that though i'm glad because I think this card would be way worse if it was just a mirror of Kralathor.
I don't know, i'm sure going up against a swarm Beastmaster build this thing could potentially become a real juggernaut, but for the overall game, or on a tournament level, i'm not so sure. Another we will have to wait and see...

If I get past the potential for growth and just see him as a regular creature he's fairly decent. The fast piercing +1 is nice. Would have liked him to be a zombie for synergy of course, but overall looking past growth hes ok.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Qube on October 15, 2013, 05:39:07 pm
The ghoul's feeding power is quite a bit more versatile than the warlord's veteran ability.  The later requires your   creature to kill an enemy, while the former works if anything dies on either side.  That difference means the ghoul is much less dependent on your opponent's strategy.

But, I agree that even if your ignore his special power, this ghouls is interesting.  Just being fast, nonliving and decently durable is pretty unique.  I could see a necro/warlock put on some early pressure with a couple of ghouls charging in backed up by pestilence.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Qube on October 15, 2013, 06:01:38 pm
When the shaggoth eats a zombie, does it count as a kill, and give the graveyard mana?  Or does obliterate cancel that out?  If it does, then the ghoul certainly has more synergy with the graveyard... a creature dies, the graveyard get mana.. the ghoul gets a nice meal.. everyone is happy.

What about sacrificial altar, graveyard, ghoul.  Kill a creature with the altar, give another creature a bonus, ghoul eats the corpse, graveyard gets mana... necromancer cackles with evil glee.

And what about goblin bomber and ghoul?  Bomber attacks, explodes, and the ghoul slurps up the mess. ;D
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 15, 2013, 06:32:55 pm
Speaking of the Necro's Cleric
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 15, 2013, 06:45:59 pm
I find all of the analysis of these cards very fascinating as we get to see what other players value. Slow and Resilient seem to be favored by many on this thread, and I see that as weaknesses that make's me not want to play them. The only Slow/Lumbering creature I truly fear is the Gorgon Archer, especially in pairs. On occasion the Iron Golems can be quite nasty, but Corrode should help balance that out. 

I wonder if our views are due to our local meta's? I do play a bit on OCTGN and have a good dozen games in with Charmyna so I do get to see a bit wider meta. My views are that with Fast + 4 Dice of Damage the Ghoul is better than Shaggoth-Zora. It will take 3 full actions to get him on the fearsome side and once again the Lumbering comes into play and to me the negatives out way the positives for blood thirsty. The same goes for the other Zombies. If you can get a swarm of them then the opposing mage could be in for a bit of trouble, but then Shaggoth-Zora could eat your own swarm.

Several other general observations, Skeletons do not get a Piercing -# buff which is surprising. I am very interested in the Necro's "Cleric" Acolyte of the Bog Queen and Altar of Skulls and the interaction there.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: wtcannonjr on October 15, 2013, 07:47:57 pm
The Priest's Malakai's Fire will be very handy here, throw in the Daze/Stun potential and +2 Nonliving of the Staff of Asyra plus Ring of Light and I would add in a Bear Strength (9 Die Stack + Burn) and he will take the brute down quicker than your average bear boo boo.

I thought that Psychic Immunity meant that Daze and Stun did not affect these creatures since these are Psychic Conditions.

Psychic (Damage Type)
Invisible mental or telepathic effect or assault. Psychic spells and attacks can cause the Stun, Daze, or Sleep condition.

Daze
Creature is disoriented and/or blinded. Whenever this creature makes an attack, roll the effect die at the end of the Declare Attack Step. If the result is 7 or higher, the attack is resolved normally. If the result is 6 or less, the attack “misses” its target and skips to Step 5 of the attack sequence (Additional Strikes). If it makes a Zone Attack, only check once: the entire attack either fails or succeeds normally. If a creature has more than one Daze on it, roll only one time to see if the creature misses. In addition, the Dazed creature suffers a -2 penalty to all Defense rolls for each Daze marker it has. All Daze markers are removed at the end of the creature’s Action Phase. Daze has a removal cost of 2. Conjurations cannot be Dazed.

Stun
Creature is Incapacitated. All Stun markers are removed at the end of the creature’s Action Phase. Stun has a removal cost of 4. Cannot affect conjurations.

Sleep:
This is a Psychic condition. This creature is in a deep sleep and is Incapacitated. If this creature receives any damage, remove Sleep and replace it with a Daze marker (which is conveniently printed on the other side of the Sleep marker). Sleep has a removal cost equal to the sleeping creature’s Level.

The damage type here is Light damage so the way I read things and through the Codex several times carefully Stun or Daze are not necessarily a result of Psychic conditions but may be caused by a Psychic attack. Where as Sleep is defined as a Psychic condition. So the Daze/Stun potential of the Staff is not an effect of a Psychic attack but of a Light attack.

How about the section in the Codex about Immunity?

Immunity
This object is immune to all attacks, damage, conditions, and effects of the specified damage type, including critical damage and direct damage. Cannot be targeted or affected by spells of the specified type.

Since the codex identifies Psychic spells and attacks as causing Stun, Daze or Sleep conditions it seemed logical to conclude that the object is immune to these conditions under the Immunity clause no matter what the damage type of the condition. After all the statement does not require the condition to be delivered by the damage type - only that the condition is "...of the specified damage type,..." In other words a Daze from another type of attack still requires the object to have a mental attribute in order to 'feel' dazed. I viewed Psychic Immunity as an indicator this mental attribute did not exist for that object.

The other view is that immunity only exists if the specified damage type is causing that condition. The immunity statement seemed to cover the broader case above, but it could use clarification. Based on the definitions in the Codex it would seem that Sleep is the only defined Psychic condition at this point, but both Daze and Stun are potential conditions of Psychic damage, but not defined as a Psychic condition.

My mind is swirling ...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: baronzaltor on October 15, 2013, 07:52:55 pm
Sleep is the only Psychic condition.  Daze and Stun are not in and of themselves Psychic and not prevented by Psychic Immunity.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 15, 2013, 08:40:55 pm
Seriously dude, if nonliving were immune to the whole gambit, in addition to being resilient they would be way too overpowered. I'm sure they considered your argument, because technically it makes sense on a thematic level, but I would guess that it was left on the cutting room floor so to speak for proper balancing. Anyway, that's my guess.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on October 15, 2013, 08:45:54 pm
How about the section in the Codex about Immunity?

Immunity
This object is immune to all attacks, damage, conditions, and effects of the specified damage type, including critical damage and direct damage. Cannot be targeted or affected by spells of the specified type.

Since the codex identifies Psychic spells and attacks as causing Stun, Daze or Sleep conditions it seemed logical to conclude that the object is immune to these conditions under the Immunity clause no matter what the damage type of the condition. After all the statement does not require the condition to be delivered by the damage type - only that the condition is "...of the specified damage type,..." In other words a Daze from another type of attack still requires the object to have a mental attribute in order to 'feel' dazed. I viewed Psychic Immunity as an indicator this mental attribute did not exist for that object.

The other view is that immunity only exists if the specified damage type is causing that condition. The immunity statement seemed to cover the broader case above, but it could use clarification. Based on the definitions in the Codex it would seem that Sleep is the only defined Psychic condition at this point, but both Daze and Stun are potential conditions of Psychic damage, but not defined as a Psychic condition.

My mind is swirling ...

This is faulty logic and has already been officially ruled on anyway. Just because a type of attack typically causes certain types of effects does not mean that those effects are automatically considered to be of that type. If they were, they would say that they were. What you are asserting here is essentially like saying: Hearts can beat hence all beats come from hearts, or swans have beaks therefore all beaks belong to swans. It simply isn't true.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 15, 2013, 09:00:21 pm
Slow and Resilient seem to be favored by many on this thread, and I see that as weaknesses that make's me not want to play them.

sIKE, you are debating the benefits of agility over strength, the boxer vs. the wrestler, the skirmisher vs. the heavy infantry.

The problem is there are so many ways to hobble the agile mage. For zombie-based Necromancer, 2 points buys you Enfeeble or Tanglevine. But when Necromancer opens 4 Brutes with Idol then Teleport opponent into them on turn 5, unlike Iron Golems, Brutes hinder escape, follow and attack. With hobbling like Tanglevine, opponent is soon zombie fodder. You mention "Slow" but Lumbering is nowhere near as debilitating as Slow. I grant you Minion's Lumbering and Pest is not good but Brutes can hinder, that's the key difference why I saw danger signs with them.

There is absolutely no finesse in what I propose. Not even a Transfusion free action burst. Just the power of 12 points on 4 Brutes, 16 points on 4 Teleport and 12 points on 6 Tanglevine to flush out your Teleports.

Unless they intend to nerf Teleport so that it can't target enemy mages (I support this), any concentrated creature mass of under-costed high damage/toughness creatures is a threat. Agility can never win against Teleport or Tanglevine. Only more Teleports can. With Slow creatures like Jelly, you have to Transfuse the Jinx Nullify Force Hold, at least it's got some cheesy combo finesse to it. But Lumbering Brutes don't even need that. They follow you and attack when you are not stuck in Tanglevine.

You were perfectly right that Pop-Up Sniper is a huge threat to zombies (and a good play against other books). But all the other solutiions are niche. We are supposed to believe they'll be added into books because they fear zombies? It's not a good sign for the meta when this happens.

I don't think the problem is Brutes. There will always be the next Stone Golem (hit hard in this expansion). The issue is Teleport assassination.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Kharhaz on October 15, 2013, 09:10:03 pm

nerf Teleport so that it can't target enemy mages creatures (I support this)

I fixed that for you.

"A man can dream; A man can dream."

- Prof. Hubert J Farnsworth
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 15, 2013, 09:29:30 pm
Slow and Resilient seem to be favored by many on this thread, and I see that as weaknesses that make's me not want to play them.

sIKE, you are debating the benefits of agility over strength, the boxer vs. the wrestler, the skirmisher vs. the heavy infantry.

The problem is there are so many ways to hobble the agile mage. For zombie-based Necromancer, 2 points buys you Enfeeble or Tanglevine. But when Necromancer opens 4 Brutes with Idol then Teleport opponent into them on turn 5, unlike Iron Golems, Brutes hinder escape, follow and attack. With hobbling like Tanglevine, opponent is soon zombie fodder. You mention "Slow" but Lumbering is nowhere near as debilitating as Slow. I grant you Minion's Lumbering and Pest is not good but Brutes can hinder, that's the key difference why I saw danger signs with them.

There is absolutely no finesse in what I propose. Not even a Transfusion free action burst. Just the power of 12 points on 4 Brutes, 16 points on 4 Teleport and 12 points on 6 Tanglevine to flush out your Teleports.

Unless they intend to nerf Teleport so that it can't target enemy mages (I support this), any concentrated creature mass of under-costed high damage/toughness creatures is a threat. Agility can never win against Teleport or Tanglevine. Only more Teleports can. With Slow creatures like Jelly, you have to Transfuse the Jinx Nullify Force Hold, at least it's got some cheesy combo finesse to it. But Lumbering Brutes don't even need that. They follow you and attack when you are not stuck in Tanglevine.

You were perfectly right that Pop-Up Sniper is a huge threat to zombies (and a good play against other books). But all the other solutiions are niche. We are supposed to believe they'll be added into books because they fear zombies? It's not a good sign for the meta when this happens.

I don't think the problem is Brutes. There will always be the next Stone Golem (hit hard in this expansion). The issue is Teleport assassination.

We have gone around on this many times Deckbuilder. If I sit around and let you build this up pack and not disrupt your plans I deserve to loose. With the Ghoul I could pull a couple out and have then on you quickly before you are able to stage your pit trap. Same with the sniper I walk two over from my start corner and start shooting at your mage (not your Lumbering Zombies). Only those who turtle are in real danger of a Pit Trap setup that you describe. Same thing with Gate to Voltari, I like to camp my mage on top of it and summon my creatures in the same zone. The games I have played my opponents always attempt to disrupt my plans and in return I do the same to them :). We should get together on OCTGN sometime and duel.....
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 16, 2013, 10:31:27 pm
Next one is up, we have seen it already and is now officially previewed. Interesting, but not sure of what I think about it.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: jacksmack on October 17, 2013, 02:40:36 am
Great dissapointment is when spoilers revealed earlier was.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: aquestrion on October 17, 2013, 02:58:16 am
So does the new creature spawning from the egg token come from your spell book points or is it free of charge?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 17, 2013, 05:07:51 am
I assume it would come from your discard pile else your spellbook else the larvae has no effect. I also assume the egg counter is double sided with the larvae counter.

It's a really nice flavoursome idea, more sci-fi than fantasy, hence more an extra-dimensional Mind creature than Dark. Unless you can recycle an Obliterated parent creature (out of the game means exactly that, surely?), it has no mechanical synergy or theme link with Dark.

However, from what we know so far, this will never see competitive play. If the Larvae dealt 1 direct damage in upkeep like Rot (it makes sense), then it would be perfectly costed. But this hasn't been communicated yet.

Here's hoping about the Rot because I really like the idea. I think this was Shad0w's idea (like Shaggoth Zura was Dada's idea).
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: jacksmack on October 17, 2013, 05:16:42 am
I assume it would come from your discard pile else your spellbook else the larvae has no effect. I also assume the egg counter is double sided with the larvae counter.

It's a really nice flavoursome idea, more sci-fi than fantasy, hence more an extra-dimensional Mind creature than Dark. Unless you can recycle an Obliterated parent creature (out of the game means exactly that, surely?), it has no mechanical synergy or theme link with Dark.

However, from what we know so far, this will never see competitive play. If the Larvae dealt 1 direct damage in upkeep like Rot (it makes sense), then it would be perfectly costed. But this hasn't been communicated yet.

Here's hoping about the Rot because I really like the idea. I think this was Shad0w's idea (like Shaggoth Zura was Dada's idea).

That right there gave me hope that this creature may serve a purpose.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Qube on October 17, 2013, 07:31:59 am

Unless you can recycle an Obliterated parent creature (out of the game means exactly that, surely?), it has no mechanical synergy or theme link with Dark.


Do we know that the parent creature is obliterated?

I wonder if it will be worthwhile to infect your own creatures?  Infect a bat, fly it in... if your opponent kills it he now has to deal with an icthelid.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: jacksmack on October 17, 2013, 08:02:24 am

Unless you can recycle an Obliterated parent creature (out of the game means exactly that, surely?), it has no mechanical synergy or theme link with Dark.


Do we know that the parent creature is obliterated?

I wonder if it will be worthwhile to infect your own creatures?  Infect a bat, fly it in... if your opponent kills it he now has to deal with an icthelid.

37% chance that you kill the bat with 1 hit. hardly worth it.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Qube on October 17, 2013, 08:23:57 am
Good point,  it could still work if you infect a larger creature though... or if you put the icthelid in your straywood beastmaster's book and run a lifetree. ;D
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: jacksmack on October 17, 2013, 08:57:45 am
Good point,  it could still work if you infect a larger creature though... or if you put the icthelid in your straywood beastmaster's book and run a lifetree. ;D

Not gonna be worth it - Tree of life makes living (itchi needs to put larvae in living) harder to kill, while the the itchilid is non-living so it doesnt get benefit from tree.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 17, 2013, 09:13:40 am
A creature with this condition marker has been impregnated with the Ichthellid Larva and is now a host to this dark creature’s spawn. Upon the death of the infected creature, an adult Ichthellid emerges with a voracious need to find another living host.

So it reproduces itself. So Bats wouldn't be bad at all. Several of these could be quite hard to handle....
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wildhorn on October 17, 2013, 09:45:41 am
What would be nice to know is, does a creature can have multiple egg inside it? If yes, this could become very powerful having 3 of these egging a bat and 3 of them emerge from it, so you went from 3 of them to six in no time and it couod continue like this to infinity.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: jacksmack on October 17, 2013, 09:57:11 am
The problem with this card is that each itchilid can only reproduce itself once... This allows for a single chain, but it requires a kill every time.

And franktly.. the creature itself is not that frightening... 5 hp and 2 armor is just too fragile.

Unless there comes some unexpected synergies to this card, the ghoul and altar of skulls (not yet officially spoiled) then i suspect that these 3 cards wont work in practice.

Just got to think of it.
Playing the itchelid and the ghoul together with altar and cheap creatures that are durable enough to survive the attack from the itchelid but still cheap to cast so the altar destroys it meaning that there is a corpse for the ghoul and a new itchelid with a new egg will spawn.
It could be done with sacred ground and firebrand imps. ending up costing 5 mana + a Full action per turn in order to get a growth marker on the ghoul and a new itchilid.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Qube on October 17, 2013, 10:32:15 am
Riiiight, it can only reproduce once *palm slaps head*.  This realization really deflates my enthusiasm for this creature... but having it able to multiply repeatedly would likely be way too crazy.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 17, 2013, 10:36:26 am
Thematically great card. Seems very fragile and risky for the cost. Probably will just summon a brute with zigurat, kill the creature and turn him into a zombie rather than another death spider. Love the idea, worried about the low life and lack of resiliency. Unless of course as mentioned the larvae inflicts damage while in hybernation. I think I would be more excited if they were fast. I don't really care much about climbing. It doesn't come into play very much, and i'm not going to send a weak creature into harms way over a wall.

Was it always the one mana cost to change the egg? I remember reading this card partially awhile ago and I don't remember reading that part. If so, why the change? Have any of the playtesters found these to be formidable in large groups maybe?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: lettucemode on October 17, 2013, 12:06:52 pm
The creature is fragile, yes, but it's not hard to do the infect. You don't have to kill anything with it, just do damage. Then you can let the Iththellid die and finish the infected creature off with your mage or something. Bam, another free creature which can infect further.

Seems good against swarm builds. Opponents will need to make a tough choice about whether to spend resources defending a lesser creature just so you don't continue to gain value out of a creature that died 6 turns ago.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: fas723 on October 17, 2013, 02:45:44 pm
It works quite well with graveyard though.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 17, 2013, 02:53:47 pm
It works quite well with graveyard though.

That is quite a nice synergy there. Through one of these out and use the graveyard to pull out a couple of bats that are then infected and die feeding the Graveyard. Nice cycle....and if the weak Ichthellid dies it goes back on the Graveyard.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: baronzaltor on October 17, 2013, 03:27:16 pm
Icthellid being undead means he can be an interesting pick for the Necromancer's Undying Servant.  It can spend its egg then when the Necro reanimates it, it brings new egg into play since it counts as a resummoning.

Or, attack your own friendly living creature.. put an egg in it, toss it away with sacrificial altar .. get a melee boost and another death-spider.

And of the larve is a poison condition, so the Necromancer can use plague master to deal direct damage every turn to speed up the hatching process too.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 17, 2013, 03:34:18 pm
Just blew my mind, wow how much all of this inter-twines just blows my mind! I need my copy!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 17, 2013, 03:57:41 pm
Baron, you just flipped this whole thing on its ear.  Larvae is a poison condition, enough said.

Also the eternal servant is interesting. It didn't even occur to me that it would get a new egg. That has potential.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Shad0w on October 17, 2013, 05:47:20 pm
Baron you go and spoil the fun. I wanted to use that trick at my DvN release tourney.  :P
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 17, 2013, 10:45:33 pm
I am very interested in the Necro's "Cleric" Acolyte of the Bog Queen and Altar of Skulls and the interaction there.

One thing I just noticed about the Acolyte is that they are living creatures. I'm really hoping that they aren't the priests that can pray to the Altar of Skulls to unleash the toxin, otherwise it's a suicide mission. Anyway, just an observation.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on October 17, 2013, 11:17:25 pm
I am very interested in the Necro's "Cleric" Acolyte of the Bog Queen and Altar of Skulls and the interaction there.

One thing I just noticed about the Acolyte is that they are living creatures. I'm really hoping that they aren't the priests that can pray to the Altar of Skulls to unleash the toxin, otherwise it's a suicide mission. Anyway, just an observation.

Can't make an omelet without cracking a few eggs...

But seriously, the Acolyte of the Bog Queen is meant to force tough decisions, both in book building and in gameplay. They can give quite a substantial boost to a necro, but they fall victim to many of his usual tricks, such as Idol of Pestilence. In the end, sacrificing a couple Acolytes to get the Altar of the Skull "Fully Operational" is more than worth it.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: baronzaltor on October 18, 2013, 12:22:08 am
I am very interested in the Necro's "Cleric" Acolyte of the Bog Queen and Altar of Skulls and the interaction there.

One thing I just noticed about the Acolyte is that they are living creatures. I'm really hoping that they aren't the priests that can pray to the Altar of Skulls to unleash the toxin, otherwise it's a suicide mission. Anyway, just an observation.

Use Rise Again and just bring them back as Zombie Priests who now are non living and poison immune.  Their support abilities are full actions, so being slow isn't going to hamper them too much (they cant move and perform them anyway)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: jacksmack on October 18, 2013, 01:56:34 am
I am very interested in the Necro's "Cleric" Acolyte of the Bog Queen and Altar of Skulls and the interaction there.

One thing I just noticed about the Acolyte is that they are living creatures. I'm really hoping that they aren't the priests that can pray to the Altar of Skulls to unleash the toxin, otherwise it's a suicide mission. Anyway, just an observation.

Can't make an omelet without cracking a few eggs...

But seriously, the Acolyte of the Bog Queen is meant to force tough decisions, both in book building and in gameplay. They can give quite a substantial boost to a necro, but they fall victim to many of his usual tricks, such as Idol of Pestilence. In the end, sacrificing a couple Acolytes to get the Altar of the Skull "Fully Operational" is more than worth it.

did you remove the "once per round" from altar of skulls??? please say you did!

(once per round a friendly cleric in the same zone as altar of skull may use a full action to put a counter on altar)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 18, 2013, 12:16:45 pm

Use Rise Again and just bring them back as Zombie Priests who now are non living and poison immune.  Their support abilities are full actions, so being slow isn't going to hamper them too much (they cant move and perform them anyway)

JOIN US!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: jacksmack on October 22, 2013, 04:02:39 am
Here is an update on what I did a couple weeks ago. For those who are not keeping up and are interested with the DvN spoilers. Over the last 28 days we have seen 25 of the cards (not counting the mage cards). If you dig around a bit, you have seen 45% of the new cards in the set of 56 new cards. Spells broken down by Type:

Attack = 1 (5)
Conjurations = 7 (9)
Creatures = 13 (16)
Enchantments = 2 (9)
Equipment = 1 (11)
Incantations = 1 (10)

The last time I wrote this up, I put the numbers of each Type of Spell from the FvM release in parenthesis. This is so we can gauge where we are compared to the DvN release.

So looking where things stand as of today. We are getting close to the release of DvN and here is the break out as of today:

Attack = 1 (5) [3]
Conjurations = 9 (9) [13]
Creatures = 15 (16) [24]
Enchantments = 2 (9) [4]
Equipment = 2 (11) [8]
Incantations = 1 (10) [4]

I have added Square brackets this time. These are my guesses for the number for that spell Type in DvN. This is for new cards only, the Conjurations and Creatures, are a strong probable number, may go up by one but I doubt it. The others are more guesses than anything else, like for equipment there will be at least five pieces but I am guessing a bit more. The last three Attack/Enchantments/Incantations are purely a SWAG...

Braaaiinnnsss!!!!!

Hi Sike

Are these numbers up to date?

According to the frontpage on magewars.com the expansion will ship this week - so im really curius about how many cards are left to be discovered.

kr

edit: ship to retailers - release is estimated to be around 20th november.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 22, 2013, 08:00:54 am
Here are the updated numbers as of today. This past week we mainly have seen items that were seen before but not Officially Spoiled:

Attack = 1 (5) [3]
Conjurations = 9 (9) [13]
Creatures = 17 (16) [24]
Enchantments = 2 (9) [4]
Equipment = 2 (11) [8]
Incantations = 1 (10) [4]

So we now have seen 32 of the 56 cards to be spoiled. We are now seeing 6 a week. We have seen 6 creatures and 1 Incantation that have not been officially spoiled so far.

Once again, I put the numbers of each Type of Spell from the FvM release in parenthesis and in square brackets are my guesses for the number for that spell Type in DvN release.

Looks like we have a couple of more names of creatures (could be wrong) a Mutating Zombie and Mort who looks like a bada&%!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Phoenix on October 23, 2013, 04:19:47 pm
where are these spoiled at?  all of them are not in the forum, nor are they all spoiled in the news tab.  Is there a thread that shows them all?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 23, 2013, 04:29:02 pm
Check Mage Wars facebook. Normally a spoiler every few days or so.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: lettucemode on October 25, 2013, 11:58:22 am
Two new spoilers up.

(https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1382779_589422484427181_1204922065_n.png)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1383184_589422007760562_1843875499_n.png)

Death Ring is pretty sweet...costs 5 instead of the regular 2-3, but you can use it twice per round and it works on your spawnpoints too. Seems good enough that opponents will want to Dissolve it, hopefully the set comes with at least 2. With this and the spawnpoint book, I think the Necro will bring a new style of swarm strats to the game. I'm already planning out a skeleton book...

Bloodspine Wall is cool. Cheaper than Wall of Thorns and better for damage once the opponent has armor on. However it doesn't block sight. Still useful for annoyance and making it difficult for your opponent to reach you. When mass-cast from Seedling Pods, this card could really hamper the opponent's movement.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 25, 2013, 12:37:49 pm
Yeah both good, especially Death Ring.

With mana discounters, I always found the "once per round" a bit clunky as it requires remembering. We tend to tap the Ring then untap it during Reset. Tracking Death Ring usage is trickier (tap it for once, invert it for twice). It could have been more elegant to make it unlimited 1 mana discount usage per round (it is rare that any mage has the mana to cast more than 2 spells even via Spawnpoint). I like that they included Spawnpoints (as Ring of Beasts is one reason why Lair is not used by my Straywood builds).

Bloodspine Wall gives the Druid a vine range wall. It helps that the Druid's Plants are immune to bleed, reducing the danger of your own walls. I see it as a gift to Jokhtari who should already play Deathlock (enhances Bleed) and will play Nature ranged such as Hunting Bow, Galador and Raptors. Jokhtari however has an awful match-up against non-living which has become far more prevalent.

Death Ring's usefulness is based on my book, I build my book hence it will always be strong. Bloodspine Wall's usefulness is based on my opponent's build, it can be very useful but this is situational.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Uremir on October 25, 2013, 01:28:51 pm
Since Bloodspine Wall has the vine subtype, will Wall of Thorns be retyped to include the vine subtype? Currently, it is only a plant subtype.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Arcanus on October 25, 2013, 02:25:10 pm
We discussed and decided to let this remain just a plant, but not a vine for right now.  But this may change in the future!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 25, 2013, 03:49:06 pm
For the Druids sake i'm hoping they include 5+ Bloodspine Walls rather than the usual 2 as they did with the Warlock. With her reaching vines her seedling pods could really create quite the barrier fairly quickly for a rather cheap mana investment. Another gain in her ever increasing defensiveness.

Death Ring is awesome, simple as that. I'm sure we all expected this ring in some fashion, but I didn't expect it to be used by spawnpoints. Obviously this will help with the horde. Good job guys yet again!

Now I want to know about the Necros staff shown in the cover art. Looks two handed and it's spewing some type of gas. I would love something that gave a rot area effect (as there is definitely not enough rot yet imo). But that's probably hoping for a bit too much. Anyway, looking forward to that one.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Kharhaz on October 25, 2013, 04:08:51 pm
For the Druids sake i'm hoping they include 5+ Bloodspine Walls rather than the usual 2 as they did with the Warlock. With her reaching vines her seedling pods could really creature quite the barrier fairly quickly for a rather cheap mana investment. Another gain in her ever increasing defensiveness.

Not only can you extend through a vine marker, but you can also cast from a seed pod for a 3 mana discount. That is a total of 6 mana for two bloodspine walls :P
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Moonglow on October 25, 2013, 04:16:27 pm
Yeah both good, especially Death Ring.

With mana discounters, I always found the "once per round" a bit clunky as it requires remembering. We tend to tap the Ring then untap it during Reset. Tracking Death Ring usage is trickier (tap it for once, invert it for twice).

I just chuck ready markers on for this kind of tracking, then I remember to flip them back with any others in the upkeep phase.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Fentum on October 26, 2013, 08:23:28 am
Yeah both good, especially Death Ring.

With mana discounters, I always found the "once per round" a bit clunky as it requires remembering. We tend to tap the Ring then untap it during Reset. Tracking Death Ring usage is trickier (tap it for once, invert it for twice).

I just chuck ready markers on for this kind of tracking, then I remember to flip them back with any others in the upkeep phase.

I just chuck ready markers on, then FORGET to flip them!

That's why I love OCTGN and its nice automation.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Aylin on October 27, 2013, 12:33:43 am
For the Druids sake i'm hoping they include 5+ Bloodspine Walls rather than the usual 2 as they did with the Warlock. With her reaching vines her seedling pods could really creature quite the barrier fairly quickly for a rather cheap mana investment. Another gain in her ever increasing defensiveness.

Not only can you extend through a vine marker, but you can also cast from a seed pod for a 3 mana discount. That is a total of 6 mana for two bloodspine walls :P

Except you have to pay 3 mana in the first place for that Seedling Pod. It only saves you mana if you let it sit 4+ turns or you cast it with Samara Tree (but so far nothing I've seen would make me choose it over Vine Tree).
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: aquestrion on October 27, 2013, 01:25:48 am
Samara tree is good for a defensive toolbox build, vine tree is good for a offensive toolbox build.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Kharhaz on October 27, 2013, 02:34:04 pm

Except you have to pay 3 mana in the first place for that Seedling Pod. It only saves you mana if you let it sit 4+ turns or you cast it with Samara Tree (but so far nothing I've seen would make me choose it over Vine Tree).

Vine tree and Samara are good. Samara is more subtle in the overall effectiveness and I ended some games with a total of 82 extra mana channeled or otherwise saved.  When a pod is coming into play every turn you have forced the opponent to focus on them, end this game quickly, or they lose. Plain and simple. If you let her get out of control, you lose.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 27, 2013, 05:18:06 pm

Except you have to pay 3 mana in the first place for that Seedling Pod. It only saves you mana if you let it sit 4+ turns or you cast it with Samara Tree (but so far nothing I've seen would make me choose it over Vine Tree).

Vine tree and Samara are good. Samara is more subtle in the overall effectiveness and I ended some games with a total of 82 extra mana channeled or otherwise saved.  When a pod is coming into play every turn you have forced the opponent to focus on them, end this game quickly, or they lose. Plain and simple. If you let her get out of control, you lose.

I hate her.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Aylin on October 27, 2013, 09:32:58 pm

Except you have to pay 3 mana in the first place for that Seedling Pod. It only saves you mana if you let it sit 4+ turns or you cast it with Samara Tree (but so far nothing I've seen would make me choose it over Vine Tree).

Vine tree and Samara are good. Samara is more subtle in the overall effectiveness and I ended some games with a total of 82 extra mana channeled or otherwise saved.  When a pod is coming into play every turn you have forced the opponent to focus on them, end this game quickly, or they lose. Plain and simple. If you let her get out of control, you lose.

Ok, but even in your scenario (assuming a Harmonized Samara Tree) you'd still need to wait 4 turns in order to get the full 3 mana (4 mana off the price of whatever you cast -1 for the mana you spent when Samara Tree casted the pod in the first place). Even then that's only 1 more mana saved than if you had casted it from the Vine Tree and you don't need to wait 4 turns for it then. Now I get that there's probably something I'm missing here, but what is it? Perhaps I'm underestimating the Seedling Pods.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: lettucemode on October 28, 2013, 07:41:02 am
Another spoiler, the first of the Druid's getting-around-hydro-immunity cards:

(https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/935126_589901184379311_86947500_n.jpg)

One condition marker for one quick action. Almost the same as Priestess's quick condition removal spell except it is plants instead of creatures, you can heal 1 damage, and it's once-per-round. Seems fine to me.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 28, 2013, 09:37:17 am
Thanks for posting, lettucemode

It's ok...

Mokhtari's Branch: each round 1 plant target within range 1 of a moving Druid, using a valuable Druid action
Renewing Spring: any number of creatures within range 1 (2 if fast) using creature actions, get healed more

Some interesting aspects about Mokhtari's Branch include
(a) it is plant object so all those plant conjurations apply (who couldn't drink from a Spring)
(b) it includes plants not controlled (I don't think Reanimate or Growth have a removal cost but possibilities)
(c) it can remove any condition like Sleep or Stun (where rushing to the Spring won't work)
(d) every mage can use it (but can't see it being played by anybody except a Druid)

I don't think anyone would waste a Druid action on 1 burn so it doesn't really solve the Hydro Immunity issue
I suspect Renewing Rain will be the big full action all arena incantation for anti-burn (amongst other benefits)
I really hope the new FAQ/rules that Bryan Pope is writing will rewrite the "can't water my plants" rules illogic
Just make the targeting immunity optional for non-enchantments in the new rules edition...

This is for removing conditions like Sleep, Stun, Larvae, Weak, Rot etc (latter 3 poison for Necromancer pain)

So the Leaf Ring is a discounter and this is condition control, stressing the resilience of regenerating Plants
Along with Barkskin, Lifebond etc, the Druid looks like a very resilient win-by-attrition mage like the Priestess
She's interesting but I'm definitely more attracted to Necromancer (maybe attracted is the wrong word here)

Mechanics-wise, its just 1 spell point to worry less about any conditions so you can't complain...
Beastmaster has to pay 3 spell points for Renewing Spring (Healing Wand will be level 1 Holy?)

I wish it wasn't range 1 as it's so anti-synergetic with vine range remote combat
What is the range of Purify, Clear Mind and Priestess ability?
And like all rings, once per round is extra book-keeping (would anyone waste both her actions on 2 removals?)

I feel bad judging a card in a vacuum... (having done so too many times already!)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 28, 2013, 01:02:12 pm
Its a solid good ring. Cheap enough both mana wise and spellbook wise. Since it's very situational (how many condition markers do you normally get against a beastmaster, warlord etc) it imo had to be 1 sb point to justify putting it in there. It's a strong counter to Necromancer who will be trying to put as many on their opposing mage as possible, but it's not an exclusive counter since other mages can stack markers depending on play style. Instead of a good ring this would have been a great ring if the removal/heal was a free action. As it stands, the Druid will have to pick her removal's very carefully. Wasting Mage actions to remove markers that non mage creatures are inflicting can really turn the tide. Larvae is the only one I can think of atm to be the one for sure removal choice. Rot, weaken and cripple are other considerations for removal. The other's will either remove themselves over time or are just not worth the action. Anyway, like i said, good ring.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 28, 2013, 03:53:37 pm
It's an auto include for the Druid only. Unless there are 3 rings for her. Auto include does not promote creative book building. It's just a spell point tax. All it says to me is "Druid only needs to spend 1 spell point for conditions". Though her own conditions can't be healed.

In Magic, Onslaught and Lorwyn blocks were very flavoursome but were tribal. When drafting, all you had to do was pick one tribe and pick those cards and hey presto you have built a good "deck by numbers" as you later discover the internal synergies within that tribe. This is what auto include cards are. They just reduce the spell points left for you to create your own unique invention, diminish choice.

Orchid is good design. Along with Explode, it gives alternatives to Dissolve. Choice is good. It is skillful as you make trade-offs and spot synergies that aren't in the same school. I appreciate Mage Wars is still young but it needs more choice for basic functions. A localised enchantment upkeep item is a soft control alternative to hard control Dispel. But all solutions are arcane, just upgrades on basic Dispel.

The box says "customisable" but so many cards are auto includes. It's like tweaking a pre-built deck. That's why I'm no fan of this ring.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 28, 2013, 05:04:10 pm
Its a solid good ring. Cheap enough both mana wise and spellbook wise. Since it's very situational (how many condition markers do you normally get against a beastmaster, warlord etc) it imo had to be 1 sb point to justify putting it in there. It's a strong counter to Necromancer who will be trying to put as many on their opposing mage as possible, but it's not an exclusive counter since other mages can stack markers depending on play style. Instead of a good ring this would have been a great ring if the removal/heal was a free action. As it stands, the Druid will have to pick her removal's very carefully. Wasting Mage actions to remove markers that non mage creatures are inflicting can really turn the tide. Larvae is the only one I can think of atm to be the one for sure removal choice. Rot, weaken and cripple are other considerations for removal. The other's will either remove themselves over time or are just not worth the action. Anyway, like i said, good ring.

This seems to me to be a real nice item to carry in your book to help when the Gorgon Archer(s) come out and start punishing your Big Plant with Weak markers....
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Kharhaz on October 28, 2013, 07:37:58 pm

Ok, but even in your scenario (assuming a Harmonized Samara Tree) you'd still need to wait 4 turns in order to get the full 3 mana (4 mana off the price of whatever you cast -1 for the mana you spent when Samara Tree casted the pod in the first place). Even then that's only 1 more mana saved than if you had casted it from the Vine Tree and you don't need to wait 4 turns for it then. Now I get that there's probably something I'm missing here, but what is it? Perhaps I'm underestimating the Seedling Pods.

Yes in a one round comparison vine tree will generally be > Samara.

Extrapolate that into a game wide effect and it can look something like this.

Druid cast a Samara tree.

Next turn Samara tree casts a seed pod A.
Next turn Samara casts pod B. A is at 1.
Next turn Samara casts pod C. Pod A is at 2, pod B is at 1 mana.
Next turn Pod A becomes anything you want it to be, Samara tree remakes pod A, Pod B is at 2, Pod C is at 1.

This cycle never ends. The Samara tree lets you spend 2 mana to get 3 in a few rounds, and that 3 mana is 100% versatile.

Also one of the biggest things to note here is that all of those pods, and subsequent actions, are a byproduct of the tree. The druid spent ZERO actions to make the pods. The only action was placing the tree. Free mana and free actions. I know Vine tree is more appealing but Samara has always been my favorite tree in this set. The sleeper hit IMO.

 
So what do you do? Rush in to beat down the samara tree? That is a lot of mana and investment for a turn 1 decision. Kill the pods? Well they have cantrip so have fun. I can spend 2 mana to make you waste an action or two killing pods that come back next turn. An Etherian Life tree, which a pod can become, makes them all 7 health to boot.

Pods not popping fast enough? Use a shift enchantment wand :P

Is she impossible to beat? Absolutely not. She is a lot of fun to play and very satisfying to beat. :P

However the Samara tree and/or pods are not auto include in her book, it is an optional route to go. You can focus on vines and all that as well; purely based on your play / book style


Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 28, 2013, 08:07:26 pm
It really seems like she will be taking the coveted spot of most defensive Mage. Seems like a strong contender for best mage to turtle with as well. She certainly has a bunch of tricks up her sleeve. Being able to cast a creature/plant and then that creature turning into a minor mage is huge. For you to be able to put out something that over a few rounds will become incredibly powerful and near impossible to shut down is a daunting thought for those going up against her.
She sets the tempo before the game even begins. That's a big deal. I truly look forward to my zombies cosplaying lumberjacks.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Aylin on October 29, 2013, 04:13:28 am

Ok, but even in your scenario (assuming a Harmonized Samara Tree) you'd still need to wait 4 turns in order to get the full 3 mana (4 mana off the price of whatever you cast -1 for the mana you spent when Samara Tree casted the pod in the first place). Even then that's only 1 more mana saved than if you had casted it from the Vine Tree and you don't need to wait 4 turns for it then. Now I get that there's probably something I'm missing here, but what is it? Perhaps I'm underestimating the Seedling Pods.

Yes in a one round comparison vine tree will generally be > Samara.

Extrapolate that into a game wide effect and it can look something like this.

Druid cast a Samara tree.

Next turn Samara tree casts a seed pod A.
Next turn Samara casts pod B. A is at 1.
Next turn Samara casts pod C. Pod A is at 2, pod B is at 1 mana.
Next turn Pod A becomes anything you want it to be, Samara tree remakes pod A, Pod B is at 2, Pod C is at 1.

This cycle never ends. The Samara tree lets you spend 2 mana to get 3 in a few rounds, and that 3 mana is 100% versatile.

Also one of the biggest things to note here is that all of those pods, and subsequent actions, are a byproduct of the tree. The druid spent ZERO actions to make the pods. The only action was placing the tree. Free mana and free actions. I know Vine tree is more appealing but Samara has always been my favorite tree in this set. The sleeper hit IMO.

Alright, so (assuming Samara on turn 1) on turn 5 your tree will start "generating" a net of one mana for you per turn (2 if you harmonize the Samara on turn 1 as well).  With the Vine Tree you start generating 1 (or 2 mana if Harmonized) on turn 2 with no wait time at all. Samara tree doesn't give you a mana advantage over Vine Tree unless you're cycling at least 4 Pods (in which case you start seeing returns on turn 6). The main advantage I can see over Vine Tree in this case is that you can cast any plant out of the pods instead of just vines, though that card-pool looks a little thin (mana flower, trees, wall of thorns iirc). I'm just not seeing a 3 turn delay being worth that without beatdown falling out of favour in the meta. On the other hand, the Vine Tree can also give some extra utility (1 mana for an extra vine marker).

I suppose a secondary advantage could be to cause your opponent to spend actions on the pods, though I can think of better ways of delaying an opponent (tanglevine, bloodspine wall, etc). At the same time though, there is a slight disadvantage since your opponent knows in which spaces you can cast spells, and when.
 
Quote
So what do you do? Rush in to beat down the samara tree? That is a lot of mana and investment for a turn 1 decision. Kill the pods? Well they have cantrip so have fun. I can spend 2 mana to make you waste an action or two killing pods that come back next turn. An Etherian Life tree, which a pod can become, makes them all 7 health to boot.

Would rushing the Samara Tree (or Vine Tree) really be a bad thing? It's likely to have Treebond, so destroying it not only gets rid of a deployment ability, but lowers the Druid's life by 4, channeling by 1, and she also loses the benefit of Lifebond +2. Seems like pressing the attack against her and her lifebond tree quickly would be the way to go. This is the major problem I have with waiting until turn 5 to get a return on your investment with the Samara tree. Actually, on turn 5 (with no Harmonize on Samara) you've spend 8 on the tree and 8 more casting Pods. In the same amount of time you'd made 4 mana from Treebond and have 3 mana on a Pod you can spend. Even ignoring the cost of the Samara in the first place you're still down 1 mana. So in essence you've spent a 1 mana and 1 quick action turn 1 for 1 quick action on turn 5. (It's even worse if you harmonize; the mana difference is the same but now you've spent two actions to get 1 back.) In an attack, the Vine tree can start defending you from turn 2. (For comparison, on turn 5 a non-harmonized Vine Tree would cost 9 mana but generate 4 and give you an extra 4 from lifebond, net =-1 [or +8 from the Samara tree scenario]. Additionally it would have given you 3 more possible deployments.)

Of course, the longer you wait to deploy using the pods the more your mana returns increase...but the early tempo and mana costs for that plan seem like they would outweigh any benefit. And the loss of a 4+ mana Pod would be painful to your economy.

Quote
Pods not popping fast enough? Use a shift enchantment wand :P

Are you suggesting that one should spend additional actions and mana to boost the pods? O_o



As a playtester you have more knowledge of the other cards than I do, so there may be something there that increases the effectiveness of the Samara Tree/Seedling Pod (such as a tree that increases the channeling of all other living creatures and conjurations by 1), but with the information I have right now the Samara Tree/Seedling Pod strategy looks inferior to the Vine Tree strategy due to the loss in tempo, especially since it doesn't offer a mana benefit unless you trade even more tempo for it. I really do hope there is something else that boosts it though.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Kharhaz on October 29, 2013, 07:49:48 am

As a playtester you have more knowledge of the other cards than I do

This ^

I am trying not to get into trouble here and It's hard describing a picture of a train when I can not say what the 2nd and 4th car look like. So I cannot properly champion this tree :P but i will try

You spend 7 mana (or 6 with ring) for Samara (tree bond increases your channel to 10). From here, on turn 5 the pods and tree give you 3 mana for every 2 spent (assuming you have not increased the channel, or dropped your own pods for 2 mana each which maintains the mana spent to gained ratio).

Vine tree is 9 mana (8 with ring) and can casts a vine spell each round,  but the channeled mana it provides is usually negated because you spend an extra mana to place a vine marker every round.

It is a relationship that will all come together when you are looking at her entire toolbox. My only point was do not underestimate the Samara tree right now. You can build books for either, or both! They serve vastly different rolls.



Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Apethemin on October 29, 2013, 11:00:33 am
Is there a rule I missed that doesn't allow for more than one type of tree out? Seems like most people are saying the Samara Tree or the Vine tree, I just don't understand why you wouldn't run both.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 29, 2013, 11:36:19 am
It's in relation to her Tree bond skill and which is the superior tree for Tree bonding.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 29, 2013, 12:00:24 pm
Another update as we are close out October. We have seen some more equipment since the last update and some additional spells that were seen before but not Officially Spoiled:

Attack = 1 (5) [3]
Conjurations = 9 (8) [13]
Creatures = 17 (16) [24]
Enchantments = 2 (9) [4]
Equipment = 4 (11) [7]
Incantations = 1 (10) [4]
Walls = 1 (1) [2]

So we now have seen 35 of the 56 cards to be spoiled. We have seen 4 creatures and 1 Incantation that have not been officially spoiled so far.

Once again, I put the numbers of each Type of Spell from the FvM release in parenthesis and in square brackets are my guesses for the number for that spell Type in DvN release.

Looks like we have a couple of more names of creatures (could be wrong) a Mutating Zombie and Mort who looks like a bada&%! And lets not forget the Dragon!

I am guessing that Togorah and the Dragon will be spoiled last.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: lettucemode on October 29, 2013, 12:32:41 pm
In your heeeaaadd...in your heeeaadd...Zombie! Zombie. Zombeh-eh-eh

(https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1377098_591380330898063_1934159432_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: lettucemode on October 29, 2013, 12:38:05 pm
So we now have seen 35 of the 56 cards to be spoiled. We have seen 4 creatures and 1 Incantation that have not been officially spoiled so far.

Once again, I put the numbers of each Type of Spell from the FvM release in parenthesis and in square brackets are my guesses for the number for that spell Type in DvN release.

Looks like we have a couple of more names of creatures (could be wrong) a Mutating Zombie and Mort who looks like a bada&%! And lets not forget the Dragon!

I am guessing that Togorah and the Dragon will be spoiled last.

I've been considering posting pictures of the set once it arrives at my house, I'll probably make a new thread for it. So the forumites will be ahead of the spoil curve.

Of course I don't want to throw off AW's plans, so if they have any problem with that, I will refrain...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Aylin on October 29, 2013, 12:56:52 pm
So I cannot properly champion this tree

Exactly.

Quote
[A]ssuming you have not increased the channel, or dropped your own pods for 2 mana each [with the Druid's Leaf Ring] which maintains the mana spent to gained ratio

That just saves you 1 mana though, exactly how much you would have saved had you just cast the plant directly using the ring.

Quote
Vine tree is 9 mana (8 with ring) and can casts a vine spell each round,  but the channeled mana it provides is usually negated because you spend an extra mana to place a vine marker every round.

One could simply not use the ability for an extra vine marker though. It's just an extra tactical option, isn't it? It wouldn't make sense to use every turn regardless of the situation.

Quote
My only point was do not underestimate the Samara tree right now.

I can only base my opinion on the information I have currently. Once the set is released I will of course re-evaluate the cards I've seen, but for now my opinion of the Samara is pretty dismal.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Aylin on October 29, 2013, 01:18:59 pm
Is there a rule I missed that doesn't allow for more than one type of tree out? Seems like most people are saying the Samara Tree or the Vine tree, I just don't understand why you wouldn't run both.

You can have as many trees out as you want afaik. The problem is that it isn't easily justifiable to cast more than 1 early, and it usually isn't worth it to cast a spawnpoint in the mid or late game.

If you cast both trees by turn 2 (making the first one your Treebond) you've spent a total of 17 mana on spawnpoints. In order to use Samara tree you'll need to pay 2 mana into it every turn (or harmonize it and pay 1 every turn from the information we have available right now). If the Samara was your first tree, by turn 5 you've put 25 mana into spawnpoints. In return you've made 4 mana from lifebond, 3 mana from your first mature pod, and 3 mana from the Vine tree (totaling 10). On turn 3 you've spent 21 mana on spawnpoints and only made 2 from channeling and 1 from the Vine tree (none of the pods are mature yet). This puts you incredibly behind your opponent in terms of mana, not really allowing you to take advantage of your deployments in the early game. If your opponent attacks early (and most competent opponents would after you've spent so much on spawnpoints) you'll be fighting an uphill battle just to remain even. A 9 channeling mage on turn 3 can come after you with 37 mana worth of stuff, but you'll only have 19 mana with which to mount a defense.  It's suicide.

If you wait to cast one of the trees however your buy-in cost is unchanged, but your benefit from it is decreased (less time to get returns on your investment). Spawnpoints generally aren't a good idea to cast after the first few turns of the game unless you have a significant lead.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: aquestrion on October 29, 2013, 03:18:24 pm
Wasnt the samara tree reduced to casting cost of 7 mana?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 29, 2013, 06:10:30 pm
Why is nobody talking about the awesome Unstable Zombie? Has it been spoiled before because I've got a feeling of deja vu...

It's not as good as Zombie Brute but its arguably better than the 7 cost 7 life Minion with exactly the same stats but no choice of exactly the right enhance. 2 more mana, 1 less life but choice of reconstruct 2, piercing 2 or non-lumbering. Yes please, put me down for 4!

Brute is far better because it isn't a Pest. Still, this ain't half sexy. Yet the chat is about that delayed pyramid mana generator that is Samara Tree with its sprout anywhere mechanic. Hello, there is a zombie elephant in the room! A very interesting level 2 creature.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 29, 2013, 06:32:08 pm
Hahahah yeah it's been previously spoiled, so i'm sure that's why no buzz, but truth be told I was just biding my time until all this Tree talk went away.

Unstable zombie is very cool. I really appreciate that the developers didn't play it safe making all the zombies the same. It really feels that each class has it's own identity. Unstable zombie is such a cool name. He instantly reminded me of the ooze zombie in Return of the living dead (1985). I love his versatility. I could have done without the 'pest' but with everything you give and take. Of course they are not better than the brutes, but they are the next best thing for sure. Level 2 and low mana cost, you can get a few of these out in no time. They get to use the non lumbering to make their way quickly to battle, they get to pierce +3, and when they get low on health they can heal up. Combined with resiliency that's pretty awesome.

So.... Correct me if i'm wrong but have we seen any form of ranged creature for Necro? Hopefully some skeleton archers. Also no flying so far. Though the dragon will probably cover that. I was hoping for a low level flying undead. Of course I can use darkfene's but idol of pestilence is going to kill them in a few rounds. Oh well, can't have it all.

It's funny, I know the moment I finally get my copy and I finish looking through all the cards, i'll be daydreaming once again about what the Necro will get in further expansions.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Qube on October 29, 2013, 06:44:39 pm
I like the look of this unstable zombie.  The ability to reconstruct itself is going to make it a very unattractive target.  Hits like a sissy though... but several of them could potentially sissy slap the opposing mage into an early grave.

Pods are just cooler than vines IMO.  My first druid will most likely be a samara bonded pod tosser.

I saw a skeleton archer somewhere.  4 dice ranged attack... if memory serves.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Aylin on October 29, 2013, 08:29:54 pm
Yet the chat is about that delayed pyramid mana generator that is Samara Tree with its sprout anywhere mechanic. Hello, there is a zombie elephant in the room!

Yeah, but the Samara tree is more mathematically interesting.  :P
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: aquestrion on October 30, 2013, 02:05:13 am
Turn 1 cast Samara tree and a pod that's 10 manager add in a tree bond and you channel 10 so turn 2, 19 tree saves 1 pod a gains 1 Samara tree cast 1 (17) you cast 2 (11) turn three pod a 2 mana. 3 pod b have 1 mana you have 21 tree cast a pod (19) you cast nothing/something. turn 4 pod a can crack 3 pod b have 2 mana 1 pod c has 1 mana. Tree cast pod d (27) pod a cracks into 2 walls (20) mage does nothing ... fun toolbox mage if you cast enough pods up front to spread them out so hyper mages can't touch this. Plus can trip! If they get too close cast walls or tele trap
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sdougla2 on October 30, 2013, 03:55:15 am
In the downloads they have a card list for Druid vs Necro. It looks like we'll finally start seeing more promos released than just Galador. Stumble, Meditation Amulet, and Wand of Healing will get released with this set according to the card list.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: jacksmack on October 30, 2013, 05:07:37 am
In the downloads they have a card list for Druid vs Necro. It looks like we'll finally start seeing more promos released than just Galador. Stumble, Meditation Amulet, and Wand of Healing will get released with this set according to the card list.

muhahahhaha meditation amulet!!!

cant wait. Epic battles gonna be fought with this card released.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 30, 2013, 09:12:09 am
In the downloads they have a card list for Druid vs Necro. It looks like we'll finally start seeing more promos released than just Galador. Stumble, Meditation Amulet, and Wand of Healing will get released with this set according to the card list.
Thanks for the heads up! Most surprisingly Sardonyx, Blight of the Living is not in the set.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Shad0w on October 30, 2013, 09:23:56 am
In the downloads they have a card list for Druid vs Necro. It looks like we'll finally start seeing more promos released than just Galador. Stumble, Meditation Amulet, and Wand of Healing will get released with this set according to the card list.
Thanks for the heads up! Most surprisingly Sardonyx, Blight of the Living is not in the set.

We did not have enough time to fully test Sardonyx so it did not make the cut.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 30, 2013, 09:42:06 am
Had I waited another day I could of closed this out. With the release of the spell list I now have everything needed to flesh this list out. Once again these numbers are new cards only not previously release cards or Promo's.

Attack = 1 (5) [3]
Conjurations = 13 (8 ) [13]
Creatures = 24 (16) [24]
Enchantments = 2 (9) [4]
Equipment = 8 (11) [7]
Incantations = 8 (10) [4]
Walls = 2 (1) [2]

So we now have seen 41 of the 56 cards to be spoiled (it appears that they include the Mage and Mage Abilty card in this count). We have seen 4 creatures and 1 Incantation that have not been officially spoiled so far.

So the nubmer on the left is the count for that type of spell, the second number is from the FvM release in parenthesis and in square brackets were my guess at the numbers for that spell Type in DvN release (though looking at t.

Other stats:

Promo's Released:
Stumble
Meditation Amulet
Wand of Healing

Core Cards:
Dispel
Dissolve
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: jacksmack on October 30, 2013, 09:46:41 am
Another spoiler up on facebook

Cloak of Shadows
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on October 30, 2013, 09:50:42 am
Had I waited another day I could of closed this out. With the release of the spell list I now have everything needed to flesh this list out. Once again these numbers are new cards only not previously release cards or Promo's.

Attack = 1 (5) [3]
Conjurations = 13 (8) [13]
Creatures = 24 (16) [24]
Enchantments = 2 (9) [4]
Equipment = 8 (11) [7]
Incantations = 8 (10) [4]
Walls = 2 (1) [2]

So we now have seen 41 of the 56 cards to be spoiled (it appears that they include the Mage and Mage Abilty card in this count). We have seen 4 creatures and 1 Incantation that have not been officially spoiled so far.

So the nubmer on the left is the count for that type of spell, the second number is from the FvM release in parenthesis and in square brackets were my guess at the numbers for that spell Type in DvN release (though looking at t.

Other stats:

Promo's Released:
Stumble
Meditation Amulet
Wand of Healing

Core Cards:
Dispel
Dissolve

Where was the spell list posted?  Also, were there some more spoilers that I missed that weren't on Facebook?  From the way I'm reading your chart, there have been 8 Incantaions spoiled.  Is that right?  I don't remember seeing that many but maybe I've just forgotten.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 30, 2013, 10:06:04 am
Where was the spell list posted?  Also, were there some more spoilers that I missed that weren't on Facebook?  From the way I'm reading your chart, there have been 8 Incantaions spoiled.  Is that right?  I don't remember seeing that many but maybe I've just forgotten.

The Spell List is up on the MageWars.com Downloads page. No the spell cards have not all been spoiled, but the names of all of the spells and the associated spell type along with count for each card is there. I have taken that information and compiled it in my previous posting.

There were two more spoilers posted this morning on FB: Cloak of Shadows and Graveyard.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on October 30, 2013, 10:21:02 am
Thank you sir!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wildhorn on October 30, 2013, 10:22:20 am
Cloak of Shadow: The anti-golem-pit cloak, for dark mage only.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on October 30, 2013, 10:50:45 am
Do we know what the Obscuring trait does yet?

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wildhorn on October 30, 2013, 11:04:11 am
Do we know what the Obscuring trait does yet?

For what I have been told is that the source of something targeting you has to be within a range of 1 (so either in same zone or adjacent).
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: lettucemode on October 30, 2013, 11:27:31 am
Pictures!

(https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/75523_592008647501898_1656069140_n.png)
Same cost as Idol of Pestilence and Deathlock, but takes 8-ish turns before its effects activate. Seems pretty useful and cool.

(https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1441331_592009110835185_403579578_n.png)
Very cool cloak. The combination of Light -2 and Obscured is very thematic. Is Obscured good enough that this would replace Elemental Cloak in books? Less defense against burns and stuns if the opponent is close to you, but then again, it forces them to move close to you to hit you with anything.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: aquestrion on October 30, 2013, 11:51:51 am
Omg if obscured really let's you (and equipment and enchants bound to you) not be targeted from more than 1 range. Why wouldn't you sit behind a wall of guards and shoot a thunderbolt on a stick? Def good thing only 2 mages can use this. Combine this with warlocks helm and armour and he is a bamf.

I'm very glad that for once the wizard can't tech this in, but I think that this will make warlock and necro a lil op.

I'm really mad about the dragon though, I really wanted a skeleton dragon so I could blow it up and make it into a poster.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 30, 2013, 12:26:18 pm
I'm really mad about the dragon though, I really wanted a skeleton dragon so I could blow it up and make it into a poster.
(http://magewars.com//jsite/images/Sardonyx%20-%20Blight%20of%20the%20Living%20600%20px.png)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 30, 2013, 12:27:59 pm
Do we know what the Obscuring trait does yet?
Obscured - can't be targeted from more than one zone away. Equipment and enchantments on the wearer gain the trait too
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Moonglow on October 30, 2013, 12:32:49 pm
Being able to obscure a familiar or other conjuration / creatures that are currently slightly too fragile might be an interesting dynamic if it's provided.   Cloud of darkness or something..
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 30, 2013, 12:49:04 pm
Being able to obscure a familiar or other conjuration / creatures that are currently slightly too fragile might be an interesting dynamic if it's provided.   Cloud of darkness or something..

An interesting mechanic that will surely change the meta for dark mages. I highly doubt they would introduce a new rule just for this cloak. My guess is we will see an enchantment or incantation with obscure. My immediate thought was, 'ok so if i can cloak my zombies, lumbering just got drastically reduced as a disadvantage'. Obscured brutes, yes please.

The cloak is an auto include in any of my dark books. Far surpasses elemental cloak imo. I will have such an upper hand on the wand battle, among tons of other long range strategy's. It essentially totally nullify's sniper/wizard tower strategy. I mean come on, elemental cloak, pssshhh. I might as well rip this card up right now haha. The -2 light is a really nice addition for theme.

Anybody saying this makes dark mages too op, you bite your tongue!!!! This simply gives dark mages a much deserved boost. There is a reason why you don't see too many warlock's taking down tournaments. Thanks designers for putting us back in the game!!!!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 30, 2013, 01:44:42 pm
Cloak of Shadows has nice synergy with Lumbering (as mentioned by Joe) and makes Teleport assassination harder (as mentioned by Wildhorn). However, before we get too excited, it is just a piece of equipment. Range 1 is where you remove equipment already. It has little benefit against Beastmaster or Druid (who has vine range). Probably best for a curse/fireball Warlock (fire will be great) and Necromancer with lumbering guard escort (seems so wrong). Still, it's great they have given Dark Mages a nice thematic alternative to Elemental Cloak (same spell points though) that is so highly playable. Choice is good!

Even more thematic is the Altar of Skulls. I love the idea of living clerics creating their own doom piling the skulls. Even when triggered and they have at most 4 rounds to live without help, the acolytes can reconstruct Altar 2 life each turn when damaged. Now that's a suicide cult! It's a shame it's another "rely on opponent's build" spell (does it really matter whose corporeal skull is added?) so great against Swarms, less so against Few Big. Still, global 3 poison damage (with Idol) whilst you're immune and have mostly nonliving is potentially awesome. Flavoursome? Most definitely! Will it be played alot? Jury's out here...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ringkichard on October 30, 2013, 01:45:14 pm
That's funny, my impression was that Curse Warlock was #2 behind Earth Wizard, in part because of its favorable matchup against attrition builds.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on October 30, 2013, 02:00:25 pm
I'm not sure the Obscuring trait is going to be all that game changing.  It's decent, to be sure, but if it works like people are saying (can only be targeted from 0-1 range), then it's only going to be so effective.  In the games I've played, most combat takes place at the 0-1 range anyway.  Sure, there are situations and builds where that trait will help, I'm not arguing that, but A LOT of action in this game takes place at the 0-1 range. 

Particularly I don't see this doing much for a standard Warlock build since they will be in melee range most of the game.  It will probably be better in ranged-fire Warlock or Necro since they aren't really a toe-to-toe mage.  I could see him sitting way back with this thing on just churning out the waves of undead.  Not being able to target the Necro without going through the army of zombies and skeletons could be some pretty decent protection.

The best use for this would be when you are keeping Gorgon Archers and Deadeye snipers and that kind of stuff outside of that 0-1 range.  That hurt those strategies pretty badly, for sure.  It could also help you keep out of range of Ballista's and Wizard Towers, although the opposing mage will probably just turtle near them forcing you closer. 

Overall, it's decent and I like it and plan on messing around with some build ideas with it, but I'm not sure it's going to be replacing those Elemental cloaks anytime soon.   
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 30, 2013, 02:02:52 pm

Still, global 3 poison damage (with Idol) whilst you're immune and have mostly nonliving is potentially awesome. Flavoursome? Most definitely! Will it be played alot? Jury's out here...

Though situational (obviously wouldn't work very well against a golemn book) I was planning to also include many poisonous gas clouds. Despite being wind, they are well worth it imo. Of course this is dependent on the attack spells of Necro as well as any further conjurations/ equipment. I still think based on pictures that the Necro's staff is going to have some type of poison cloud to it. With these mixed with Wraiths (or the equivalent poison enducing creature) I think this is going to be a very formidable build. The Necro is going to be the king of direct upkeep damage!
Thinking about the staff in relation to the new cloak shown, instead of poison, it could just be be an area effect obscure. The gas billowing out of the staff is black after all. The picture i'm thinking about specifically show the Necromancer with his staff raised high above the heads of his oncoming horde. So obscure could be more likely. Whatever the case, i'm excited to see.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Apethemin on October 30, 2013, 02:23:29 pm
Obscure sure seems like it could be the answer to the Wizard tower so I'm pretty excited about it! Just hoping there is an enchantment that has it too.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on October 30, 2013, 08:34:53 pm
(https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/1381298_592088480827248_919340594_n.png)
Looks like the Unstable Zombie has been adjusted slightly. Now it only has 5 health.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on October 30, 2013, 08:42:24 pm
Unfortunately, an old picture was posted. This is the accurate Unstable Zombie.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: jacksmack on October 31, 2013, 05:17:09 am
I hope 5 HP is enough to make it viable - surely 4 HP on it would be riddicilous. to me 6 seemed about right - but i ofc havent play tested it.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: lettucemode on October 31, 2013, 08:52:59 am
Looks like Altar of Skulls got updated....when it's powered up, now it also gains Lifebond +2!

(https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1384278_592086420827454_551185672_n.png)

What is Lifebond? I think I read somewhere that it is: "During the upkeep phase, you may heal X damage on your mage and place it on this object." Is that correct?

If it is, then that means the same cleric that was placing skulls on the Altar can switch to reconstructing it every turn instead...pretty cool.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: jacksmack on October 31, 2013, 09:05:23 am
its not a heal... this is important. and it would actually be useless if it was since everything has finite life once the altar gets lifebond.

Lifebond is somehting like this:
The mage may transfer X damage from herself to the target or from the target to herself.

AKA heal herself and damage altar or vice versa.... except its not heal.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: lettucemode on October 31, 2013, 09:20:50 am
Thanks for the clarification jacksmack. You are right - it wouldn't make sense with my wording.

I am thinking turn 1 altar + cleric, leaving you with 26 mana for turn 2 Libro Mortuos and a Wall of Bones or two to protect the altar. Then start pumping out skellies   8)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 31, 2013, 09:22:35 am
Altar is now quite attractive. While not an alternate win condition, it is an Epic Game State changer (like Gate to Hell was meant to be).

Like jacksmack, I'm more concerned about Unstable Zombie at 5 life (hit points?). Few level 2 creatures compare well against the Timber Wolf but both cost 9, you can't help make the comparison. Even as Resilient, it feels too vulnerable to lucky rolls and of course ganging up before the reconstruct 2 kicks in. Maybe there's some support we haven't seen (like a Zombie Totem). It would be a shame if it has been nerfed to unplayable as it is such an interesting creature. Let's hope the playtesting has pitched it right.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: lettucemode on October 31, 2013, 09:41:13 am
Like jacksmack, I'm more concerned about Unstable Zombie at 5 life (hit points?). Few level 2 creatures compare well against the Timber Wolf but both cost 9, you can't help make the comparison. Even as Resilient, it feels too vulnerable to lucky rolls and of course ganging up before the reconstruct 2 kicks in. Maybe there's some support we haven't seen (like a Zombie Totem). It would be a shame if it has been nerfed to unplayable as it is such an interesting creature. Let's hope the playtesting has pitched it right.

Looking at the card list for stuff we haven't seen yet...there aren't any more new conjurations. There's a creature called Mort (probably a Dark creature, judging from the name) that could buff zombies in some way. There's a level 1 incantation called Reassemble that could help, though it might only be for the skeleton subtype; an Epic incantation called Unholy Resurgence that will definitely help it out, though maybe not in the way of survival; and another incantation called Zombie Frenzy that is also probably not for survival, level 2 or higher.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 31, 2013, 11:39:53 am
Looking at the card list for stuff we haven't seen yet...there aren't any more new conjurations. There's a creature called Mort (probably a Dark creature, judging from the name) that could buff zombies in some way. There's a level 1 incantation called Reassemble that could help, though it might only be for the skeleton subtype; an Epic incantation called Unholy Resurgence that will definitely help it out, though maybe not in the way of survival; and another incantation called Zombie Frenzy that is also probably not for survival, level 2 or higher.
We haven't seen:

Mohktari and Stranglevine (Conjuration)
Wall of Bones (Conjuration-Wall)
Deathfang, Mort, Plague Zombie, Tataree, Thornlasher, Venomous Zombie, and Zombie Crawler(Creature)
Deathshroud Staff, Veterans Belt, and Vinewhip Staff (Equipment)
Burst of Thorns, Reassemble, Renewing Rain, Unholy Resurgence, and Zombie Frenzy (Incantation)

So there is still a good bit to learn here. Next week peeps from the shows should be getting their copies sigh, I didn't make any of them.

The Crawler has now been spoiled....
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Koz on October 31, 2013, 11:41:31 am
sIKE, as always, on the ball  :)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on October 31, 2013, 11:46:26 am
The issue with Unstable Zombie was that at 6 health there was little reason to play a zombie minion, when for one mana more this guy does so much. Yes, it can be more "swingy" when attacking resilient creatures, but he can still do a great deal. A Zombie minion is more constant, more reliable, with it's extra health. However, if you have guts you can risk the unstable zombie and it can do amazing things.  I firmly think that Agony and stacking Weak conditions on your opponents can greatly help this guy survive, and if he does he's pretty solid.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on October 31, 2013, 11:59:24 am
Here he is:

(http://magewars.com/jsite/images/Zombie Crawler Cutout 300 px Watermark.png)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 31, 2013, 01:35:51 pm
Nice the Necro is the second Mage to only get 4 mana creatures. This guy is thematically so awesome! Way better than the Warlord grunts. I'm not saying i'll be using them, but the idea of them is terrific!!!!

Well, maybe for synergy graveyard purposes...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 31, 2013, 01:39:29 pm
The issue with Unstable Zombie was that at 6 health there was little reason to play a zombie minion, when for one mana more this guy does so much.

One more mana? I thought Zombie Minion was 7 mana for 7 life?
Prior Unstable version was 9 mana for 6 life. The final version is 9 mana for 5 life = 10 dice on average
It's crossing that threshold that makes Etherian Lifetree so good for Straywood swarm, but in reverse
Few Big with its higher damage dice and higher resilience is preferred because it is more consistent
I guess "unstable" = unreliable and quite luck-reliant here

I appreciate the point about a fairer trade-off choice with the Minion but what about the Brute?
If I have 18 mana to spend, I would rather spend it on a Brute and a Minion than 2 Unstables
For 2 more mana (and 1 more spell point), you can get the awesome sauce that is the Brute...

I'd like to return my 4 Unstable Zombies please... I'll stick to Brutes and maybe that Fast Ghoul Cleaner


As for Zombie Crawler, ugh! Slow on a level 1? At least Skeleton Gardeners can nimbly remove Vine Markers...
Crawler is just food for Shaggoth-Zura (if you want to waste 1 spell point, 4 mana and 1 spawn action on it)


Again, this is evaluating cards in a decreasing vacuum (and we don't know how rules have evolved either)
I look forward to a meta full of Crawlers and Unstables so I can really gorge on humble pie...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on October 31, 2013, 02:05:34 pm
It's too bad altar of skulls is exclusive to enemy creatures. It may be worth the 4-5 points to put a few crawlers for sacrifice. Like Deck said, basically food for shaggoth.

Have any of the playtesters used these effectively in a more conventional melee way? Or were these put in as a balance for some of the more superior Necro creatures?

With the pest they can't be used as meat shields aka one shot guards. Too bad.

I still like unstable. I like that there is a real gamble to him. There aren't a lot of creatures with that dimension. They could be one shotted by big creatures of course, but I think that can be said for a lot of other cheap creatures. He still has piercing +2, he can still heal, and he can still ignore lumbering trait. Those are still options that other similar creatures cannot choose.
My only beef is the skill point cost. The zombie crawlers are 1, but the zombie minion and the unstable zombie are both 2. I would have liked the zombie minion to also be 1, and then stomaching the 2 for unstable's would have been a bit easier.
I remember a playtester saying how much the Necro build really embodied the horde feel, so i'll just have to wait and see how true that is.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 31, 2013, 02:35:26 pm
Yeah, I like Unstable still because it is so interesting to choose a benefit. Maybe in conjunction with Grey Wraith.

"Unstable" should have been either
(a) more random (e.g. when activated, roll d12, consult chart for a random benefit, great but unpredictable)
(b) more aggressive (e.g. quite undercosted but must attack, even own creatures, as in mentally unstable)
(c) short lived (e.g. very good but with built-in Rot mechanic, "the star that shines brightest shines shortest")
I see nothing "Unstable" in it as it is.

On the other hand, the Crawler is definitely flavoursome, if not very useful so far
Maybe there is some sacrifice mechanic yet unspoiled (as its Sacrificilal Altar / Graveyard synergy is not great)
I think what Crawler really needed was 11+ Stuck so it can be a control deterrent
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: lettucemode on October 31, 2013, 03:03:52 pm
Mage Wars posted a link to an unboxing video on their Facebook page. I'm gonna write down all the new cards I see in the video here.

Veteran's Belt
4 mana, Equipment, Belt, 0-2, targets Mage, War level 1, no subtypes.
When this mage is attacked, at the end of the <something> step, he may convert up to 2 critical damage to normal damage.

-For those defensive mages with some armor on already.

Viewship Staff
7 mana, Equipment, One-handed, 0-2, targets Mage, Nature level 2, Vine subtype. Druid Only.
Quick attack, melee, 4 dice, Reach.
As a quick spell, you may spend 1 mana to place a Vine marker in a target zone up to 1 zone away. Once per round, as a quick spell, you may pay 4 mana and destroy a target friendly Vine marker up to 2 zones away to give a target non-Flying creature in that zone the Stuck condition.

- Very defensive, cool stuff.

Stranglevine
7 mana, Conjuration, quick, 0-2, targets Corporeal Creature, Nature level 2, Plant and Vine subtypes. Upkeep +X, Living, Flame +2, Hydro Immunity.
6 life, no armor.
Target is Restrained and gains the Unmovable trait. Each Upkeep Phase, before paying Stranglevine's upkeep cost, place 1 Crush token on Stranglevine. X = the number of Crush tokens on Stranglevine. When you pay Stranglevine's upkeep cost, this creature receives X direct damage. Stranglevine gains Life +2x. Stranglevine cannot target creatures with the Flying or Uncontainable traits. Ranged attacks cannot target Stranglevine.

-A better, more expensive, Tanglevine.

Raptor Vine
9 mana, Creature, Nature level 3, Plant and Vine subtypes. Rooted, Uproot 1, Regenerate 1, Hydro Immunity, Flame +2.
10 life, no armor.
Quick attack, melee, 5 dice, Vampiric.

-Rooted means the creature can't move. Uproot means you can pay that much mana to move the creature, but there might be a distance-from-mage restriction.

Taratree (butterfly!)
6 mana, Creature, QUICK ACTION, Nature level 1, Insect subtype. Flying, Legendary, Pest, Druid Only.
3 life, 0 armor, infinite Defense on 3+.
Quick attack, melee, 1 die, Ethereal.
As a quick action, Taratree may choose and do one of the following to a Plant object in its zone: Heal it 1 damage, or place 1 mana on it if it has the Channeling attribute.

-Dies instantly to anything Unavoidable, but the quick action to summon and watering Seedling Pods makes it pretty cool.

Thornlasher
7 mana, Creature, Nature level 2, Plant and Vine subtypes. Rooted, Regenerate 2, Flame +2, Hydro Immunity.
11 life, 0 armor.
Full attack, range 0-1, 3 dice, 5+ = Snatch (?) (new keyword, probably means "Stuck until Thornlasher is destroyed").

-Thematic and cool.

Burst of Thorns
5 mana, Incantation, quick, 0-2, targets Friendly Vine Marker, Nature level 1, no subtypes. Druid Only.
Ranged 0-0 attack, 4 dice, 7+ = Bleed, Piercing +1.
Target Friendly Vine Marker makes the above attack. Then, destroy that Vine Marker.

-Decent I guess.

Deathshroud Staff
8 mana, Equipment, One-handed, quick, 0-2, targets Mage, Dark level 3, Necro subtype. Necromancer Only.
? attack, 4 dice, 8+ = Rot.
Once per round, as a quick necro spell, you may pay 2 mana to target a zone up to 1 zone away. All friendly Undead creatures in that zone gain Melee +1 until the end of the round.

-Meh, seems alright.

Wall of Bones
6 mana, Conjuration, targets Zone Border, blocks sight and movement, Dark level 1, Skeleton subtype. Extendable.
12 life, 0 armor.

-Nice tough walls that can be Reconstructed by clerics.

Deathfang
8 mana, Creature, Dark level 2, Undead, Skeleton, and Canine subtypes. Fast, Nonliving, and Psychic Immunity.
8 life, 0 armor.
Quick attack, melee, 3 dice, piercing +1.

-Cool!

Mort
16 mana, Creature, Dark level 4, Undead, Skeleton, and Soldier subtypes. Nonliving, Psychic Immunity, and Legendary.
Quick attack, melee, 4 dice, 8+ = Tainted.
13 life, 1 armor.
Each upkeep phase, each friendly Skeleton object in or bordering Mort's zone may Reconstruct up to 2 damage.

-what the sheeeeeeeeet

Plague Zombie
9 mana, Creature, Dark level 2, Undead and Zombie subtypes. Bloodthirsty +1, Lumbering, Pest, Resilient, Psychic Immunity, and Nonliving.
4 life, 0 armor.
Quick attack, melee, 2 dice, 8+ = Rot.
When Plague Zombie is destroyed, place a Rot condition on each living creature in its zone.

-Exploding poison zombies, me likely

Skeletal Archer
11 mana, Creature, Dark level 3, Undead, Skeleton, and Soldier subtypes. Nonliving and Psychic Immunity.
9 life, 0 armor.
Full attack, ranged 1-2, 4 dice.
Quick attack, melee, 2 dice.

-Solid ranged unit IMO.

Venomous Zombie
7 mana, Creature, Dark level 2, Undead and Zombie subtypes. Bloodthirsty +1, Lumbering, Pest, Resilient, Psychic Immunity, and Nonliving.
5 life, 0 armor.
Quick attack, melee, 2 dice, 7+ = Tainted.

-Meh.

Animate Dead
X mana, Incantation, full action, Dark level 3, targets Discarded non-Epic Living creature, Necro subtype. Dark Mage only.
Choose a non-Epic Living creature from any discard pile and Summon it into your zone. Place damage on that creature equal to its level and place a Zombie condition marker on it. X = half that creature's casting cost, rounded up.

-Cool stuff.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on October 31, 2013, 03:43:48 pm
Wow! Thanks for typing all that up! Too much to take in! First impressions of cards I like...

Druid: Viewship (Stuck as a range 2 cost 4+vine quick?), Stanglevine (bypass Resilient), Raptor Vine (depending on Uproot range)

Necromancer: Mort (go Skeleton build), Plague Zombie (Sacrificial Altar if ignored), Venomous Zombie (bit swingy, Necro's poison ability)

This super-spoiler feels wrong. I feel like I have been waiting ravenously for morsels and suddenly come upon a feast...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Bishop084 on October 31, 2013, 04:59:55 pm
Mage Wars posted a link to an unboxing video on their Facebook page. I'm gonna write down all the new cards I see in the video here.
Viewship Staff
7 mana, Equipment, One-handed, 0-2, targets Mage, Nature level 2, Vine subtype. Druid Only.
Quick attack, melee, 4 dice, Reach.
As a quick spell, you may spend 1 mana to place a Vine marker in a target zone up to 1 zone away. Once per round, as a quick spell, you may pay 4 mana and destroy a target friendly Vine marker up to 2 zones away to give a target non-Flying creature in that zone the Stuck condition.

Yeah, he said "Viewship" Staff, whatever the heck that is. The card clearly says "Vinewhip" Staff.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: lettucemode on October 31, 2013, 05:31:37 pm
You know, I thought that it was a weird name..haha
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Qube on October 31, 2013, 06:23:40 pm
The raptor vine seems like a beast.  5 dice quick attack with vampirism and regen?!  Whaaaaat?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on November 01, 2013, 12:45:15 am
Shame about the Necro's staff. I'll more than likely just equip Libro Mortuos and incantation wand. Of course i'll play around with it, but in it's vacuumed state I'm not seeing need to even put in book.  The 8+ rot is too risky to waste an action vs the always useful wand. The quick action Melee +1 with range 0-1 and 2 mana cost is unlikely to make it worth the points unless you specifically played to the staff by hording zombies in the same zone. Generally not a great idea because of area effect spells. Of course I could be totally off the mark, but so far imo the Necro isn't a front line (warlord style) fighter. In most games i'll position my mage defensively while allowing creatures and poisons to rack up. Therefore the +1 melee would become very situational. I bet it's better in a rush skeleton (due to no lumbering) build.

Now the Druid's staff is something different entirely. Only a level 2 compared to Necro's Level 3, 1 less mana , equal dice to necros, the awesome reach factor (vs heavy flying builds), and the awesome 4 mana vine stuck condition. A perfect answer to big creature builds. 
Especially useful because unlike Necro I can envision her as a very good tank, Barkskin (4 mana cantrip, come on!!!) mixed with regen belt and a regrowth enchantment and she is healing 6 hp each round automatically. That's impressive.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sdougla2 on November 01, 2013, 01:07:47 am
Regenerate doesn't stack. Still, you can use the Treebond to effectively increase her Regeneration, so she should still be incredibly tough.

I'm mostly envisioning Stranglethorn as a card for the Druid to use after inflicting Stuck a few times and maybe used a few Tanglevines. I would hold off on casting it until I'd baited a few Teleports.

I'm not sure whether I'll want my Necromancer to focus on zombies or skeletons. I like Zombie Brutes, but I'm not sure about the rest of them yet. Skeletons seem okay, but Mort looks amazing.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: jacksmack on November 01, 2013, 04:50:04 am
Regenerate doesn't stack. Still, you can use the Treebond to effectively increase her Regeneration, so she should still be incredibly tough.

I'm mostly envisioning Stranglethorn as a card for the Druid to use after inflicting Stuck a few times and maybe used a few Tanglevines. I would hold off on casting it until I'd baited a few Teleports.

I'm not sure whether I'll want my Necromancer to focus on zombies or skeletons. I like Zombie Brutes, but I'm not sure about the rest of them yet. Skeletons seem okay, but Mort looks amazing.

Do Mort regen himself? 
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: jacksmack on November 01, 2013, 06:25:25 am
After i have given it some thought i want to try to answer my own question.

Looking at the text on standard bearer it says other friendly creatures gain.

The Text on Mort is friendly creatures.

I believe he will regenerate/rebuild himself.

The text for the Priests ability supports this as well with who attack and damage another friendly creature
So the holy avenger will not recieve the bonus vs enemies who damaged the avenger.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: fas723 on November 01, 2013, 09:30:34 am
Anyone who saw the bone dragon? Or have they removed him (her?)?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on November 01, 2013, 09:47:01 am
Anyone who saw the bone dragon? Or have they removed him (her?)?
I asked this the other day, and Shadow said that they didn't have enough time to play test him and as a result, he didn't make it into the release. I know, much sadness!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on November 01, 2013, 10:13:01 am
After carefully reviewing the unboxing video yesterday we really got a burst of previously unseen and un-spoiled cards! Somebody aptly put it yesterday, from famine to feast!

Mohktari and Stranglevine (Conjuration)
Wall of Bones (Conjuration-Wall)
Deathfang, Mort, Plague Zombie, Tataree, Thornlasher, Venomous Zombie, and Zombie Crawler(Creature)
Deathshroud Staff, Veterans Belt, and Vinewhip Staff (Equipment)
Burst of Thorns, Reassemble, Renewing Rain, Unholy Resurgence, and Zombie Frenzy (Incantation)

Only need to see 3 cards now!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on November 01, 2013, 11:10:44 am
I hope Mort regenerates himself as well. The Druid certainly has a leg up with her regenerating creatures. This will give me much more incentive to think about skeleton builds.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on November 01, 2013, 11:50:53 am
I hope Mort regenerates himself as well. The Druid certainly has a leg up with her regenerating creatures. This will give me much more incentive to think about skeleton builds.
Mort's text reads:

Each Upkeep Phase, each friendly skeleton object, in or bordering Mort's zone, may Reconstruct up to 2 damage.

Since Mort's Subtype also includes Skeleton, I would classify him as a friendly skeleton object and may Reconstruct up to 2 damage.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Laddinfance on November 01, 2013, 12:09:13 pm
Mort does reconstruct himself.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on November 01, 2013, 12:13:45 pm
Well there you go. Thanks for quick clarification.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: ijw473 on November 01, 2013, 12:44:00 pm
Since I saw him yesterday I’ve been thinking about how to make a skeleton build viable.  I hope Mort is ready to get his face pounded repeatedly, because it is going to be a hobby for folks once they see him on the board.  I think he only makes it in the deck for a skeleton build and he will be the centerpiece of any such build.

Skeleton Knights + Skeleton Archers + Mort In The Middle running for his life… might be effective.  Move forward in a sort of cross.

One problem I see with such a build is that Mort doesn’t look too difficult to kill off.  His life is nice, 13, but one armor and no defense is sort of squishy for a deck centerpiece.  Perhaps giving him an intercept friend – the obnoxious dwarf defender or the gargoyle – would be ideal.  But six points + the mana is a steep price.

Heh, maybe we could make a Mort Fort.  He’ll reconstruct the bone walls, right?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Hale_32bit on November 01, 2013, 01:29:02 pm
Snatch probably means pull like forcemaster!
Don't work on unmovable, incorporeal or uncontainable creature.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on November 01, 2013, 02:16:29 pm
Snatch probably means pull like forcemaster!
Don't work on unmovable, incorporeal or uncontainable creature.

Probably, though I'm guessing there is some other variable to it. They generally do not create a new definition for the same mechanic. This game is complicated enough.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: lettucemode on November 01, 2013, 10:14:09 pm
I went back over the video in 1080p and managed to catch a glimpse of some of the wording on the other cards.

Reassemble
4 mana, Incantation, quick action, 0-2, targets Skeleton Object.
Roll 6 dice. Target skeleton <something> Reconstruct up to that much <something>

-So basically a minor heal for skeleton objects.

Unholy Resurgence
9 mana, Incantation, full action, 0-0, targets Arena. Epic!
Each friendly skeleton object <something> attack dice and may Reconstruct <something> damage (roll separately for each object).

-Arena-wide minor heal for skeleton objects?

As for Zombie Frenzy, in the comments on the video, the creator says that this spell "activates all your zombies and makes them Fast, Bloodthirsty +1, and they lose the Pest trait." Woah!!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Kharhaz on November 02, 2013, 12:41:39 am

As for Zombie Frenzy, in the comments on the video, the creator says that this spell "activates all your zombies and makes them Fast, Bloodthirsty +1, and they lose the Pest trait." Woah!!

NOM NOM NOM NOM
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on November 02, 2013, 01:14:09 am
Incantation wand Zombie frenzy???

Probably for such a powerful spell it's epic or crazy high mana cost making it not viable.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Hale_32bit on November 02, 2013, 09:19:47 am
Snatch probably means pull like forcemaster!
Don't work on unmovable, incorporeal or uncontainable creature.

Probably, though I'm guessing there is some other variable to it. They generally do not create a new definition for the same mechanic. This game is complicated enough.

complexity is key feature of Mage Wars :)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on November 03, 2013, 01:05:59 pm
Has anyone got a copy yet? If not, can someone please point out where I can reference the Zombie Brute card?
I can't find an image of it in this thread or Facebook or the News sections. And I'm sure I saw it on the latter two.
It's like it never existed! Did I imagine it in my Necromancer dreams? Have I entered the Twilight Zone? So weird.
I just need to know all its stats for planning a book in advance, It's been spoilt so shouldn't be an issue, Thanks!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on November 03, 2013, 01:18:02 pm
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=583909394978490&set=pb.201117713257662.-2207520000.1383506256.&type=3&theater

Deck, you're losing it man, pull it together! haha.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on November 03, 2013, 01:19:27 pm
Here you go
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on November 03, 2013, 01:21:20 pm
Thanks guys! I couldn't find it in the history timeline! Feel so embarrassed...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: RayLancer on November 03, 2013, 03:15:18 pm
What a horrible month of waiting for me. Gotta wait for the Druid Vs Necromancer expansion, BattleCON: Devastation of Indines, Nexus 5, PS4, the new Zelda 3DS game...  :'(
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on November 03, 2013, 05:57:48 pm
What a horrible month of waiting for me. Gotta wait for the Druid Vs Necromancer expansion, BattleCON: Devastation of Indines, Nexus 5, PS4, the new Zelda 3DS game...  :'(

#firstworldproblems
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Aylin on November 03, 2013, 08:52:19 pm
Renewing Rain:

Level 1? Holy Spell
9 mana
0-0 range
Full action
Arena = target

Remove all burn tokens from all creatures and conjurations in the arena. Then, heal all friendly living creatures for 2 damage. (Wording questionable)


So I suppose this is how the Druid will keep her plants from being burned?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on November 03, 2013, 09:33:16 pm
9 mana???? An entire arena spell for so little yet incredibly powerful....Sorry Warlock. That's a bit discouraging.

I'm guessing this is an incantation? Non epic so it can be attached to a wand and spammed.....I hope i'm wrong.

This mixed with her plants built in regen, uhhhgggh I don't know how to process this properly.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Aylin on November 03, 2013, 10:19:48 pm
9 mana???? An entire arena spell for so little yet incredibly powerful....Sorry Warlock. That's a bit discouraging.

I'm guessing this is an incantation? Non epic so it can be attached to a wand and spammed.....I hope i'm wrong.

This mixed with her plants built in regen, uhhhgggh I don't know how to process this properly.

Incantation, yes.  I couldn't tell from the video if it had Epic or not but I'd guess not as a level 1 spell.

Deathlock for the Warlock solves 2 of the above problems (regen and healing via spell), and removing burns for 9 mana doesn't really counteract Flame +2...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: echephron on November 03, 2013, 10:40:08 pm
What I want to really see in previews are the rules. vigilant and snatch for example.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on November 03, 2013, 11:13:20 pm
Oh I was hoping the ? by the level 1 was a guess. That's a pretty rediculous level 1 card imo. It's not very often that there are burn markers all over the board, so that's not my primary concern. My main beef is the super cheap cost for a board wide spell that can not only remove all markers (say a mage being rushed by a flame whipping warlock for instance) but that all creatures and conjurations get a heal. This is a must include for living swarm builds and of course nature/holy any build.

I would imagine getting a "Reconstructing Mist" 9 mana/ level 1 that would reconstruct 2 health of all undead would be an enormously huge advantage. I mean, could you lose.

Here is how i'm going to lose to the Druid. She will stay in her start square, shower rain wand, my zombies will be obliterated by Kralathor. He will grow and grow. He will also get his normal 2 regen and get Renewing Rained no matter his location on the board each round. Essentially giving an already incredible juggernaut of a creature a 4 regen. This is a total of three cards. Put a Nullify on him, and or dispel Deathlock/Plauged/Ghoul Rot.  All other creature effort will be to negate any finite life conjurations. I'm worried.

An extra example: Area effect Firestorm for 11 mana full action. Ok go ahead, i'll just pull out a renewing rain full actiont. Squashed that. You just spent 3 points (assuming your warlock/ fire wizard) while I only had to spend 1. Hmmm

Like I said, very powerful.

This spell screams "Hey opposing mage, run directly to the Druid, ignore all other distractions, good luck"
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Aylin on November 04, 2013, 12:26:27 am
Oh I was hoping the ? by the level 1 was a guess. That's a pretty rediculous level 1 card imo. It's not very often that there are burn markers all over the board, so that's not my primary concern. My main beef is the super cheap cost for a board wide spell that can not only remove all markers (say a mage being rushed by a flame whipping warlock for instance) but that all creatures and conjurations get a heal. This is a must include for living swarm builds and of course nature/holy any build.

Not in a Priest build, unless the player likes removing the burns on their opponents. Also I believe it is only creatures, not conjurations.

It looks like it is level 1 from the video, but it is hard to tell. I'm ~90% sure it is. Even if it was a higher level though, I don't think it would be epic.

Quote
I would imagine getting a "Reconstructing Mist" 9 mana/ level 1 that would reconstruct 2 health of all undead would be an enormously huge advantage. I mean, could you lose.

There's Mort, which is I suppose the closest thing. Only Skeletons, but you don't have to recast the spell over and over.

Quote
Here is how i'm going to lose to the Druid. She will stay in her start square, shower rain wand, my zombies will be obliterated by Kralathor. He will grow and grow. He will also get his normal 2 regen and get Renewing Rained no matter his location on the board each round. Essentially giving an already incredible juggernaut of a creature a 4 regen. This is a total of three cards.  All other creature effort will be to negate any finite life conjurations. I'm worried.

I'm assuming you're speaking from the perspective of the Necromancer? While you have Deathlock out Kralathor heals 0 each turn. If the Druid sends a couple of plants after your Deathlock a Poison Gas Cload/Malacoda and an Idol of Pestilence gives most plant creatures 4 turns of life if they somehow manage to not take any other damage, such as from sacrificing a Plague Zombie to Sacrificial Altar (after it attacks first, of course) for a rot marker on all enemy creatures in the zone (with your special ability this equals an extra 2 direct damage each turn) and an extra 2 dice for your next attack. There are ways to nullify Kralathor and Renewing Rain. There's always Poisoned Blood, especially if the Druid is hiding in the back corner the whole time.

Also if the Druid is spending 9 mana every turn on an incantation, how exactly is she going to have mana available to cast more than 1 or 2 creatures besides Kralathor, unless you've let her build up an absurd amount?

Quote
An extra example: Area effect Firestorm for 11 mana full action. Ok go ahead, i'll just pull out a shower rain quickcast. Squashed that. You just spent 3 points (assuming your warlock/ fire wizard) while I only had to spend 1. Hmmm

Now you're talking about a Priestess? The spell is a full action, by the way, not a quick.

Compare it to a Group Heal; if we're only concerned with 1 zone of creatures the Group Heal is superior to Renewing Rain if the creatures you care about have 0-1 burns on them. (Same mana cost, but Group Heal heals an average of 5 per creature, while a Burn does less than 3 on average [in any game of finite length]).

Quote
Like I said, very powerful.

Honestly I see it more as a way for a Druid to sort-of cover the major weakness of Flame +2 on pretty much everything she has. Just because a Fire mage won't be able to completely dominate the Druid now doesn't make Renewing Rain OP. Isn't casting heal spells generally considered to be a loss in tempo anyway?

Quote
This spell screams "Hey opposing mage, run directly to the Druid, ignore all other distractions, good luck"

I disagree.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Qube on November 05, 2013, 01:28:23 pm
So, zombie frenzy is not epic... and only lvl 2.  It's a 9 mana incantation that gives all zombies fast and bloodthirsty +1.  The zombie horde is looking pretty good!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on November 05, 2013, 01:55:11 pm
Alright Vassel did it for me:

Mohktari (Conjuration)
Wall of Bones (Conjuration-Wall)
Deathfang, Mort, Plague Zombie, Tataree, Thornlasher, Venomous Zombie, and Zombie Crawler(Creature)
Deathshroud Staff, Veterans Belt, and Vinewhip Staff (Equipment)
Burst of Thorns, Reassemble, Renewing Rain, Unholy Resurgence, and Zombie Frenzy (Incantation)

We have seen all now and was able to fill in the missing text. All I am really missing at this point are the card numbers that I haven't been able to figure out yet. I.E. DNC03 etc. I don't have all of these yet...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on November 05, 2013, 02:17:55 pm
I'm just ready to get my copy already....
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on November 05, 2013, 02:32:59 pm
All I am really missing at this point are the card numbers that I haven't been able to figure out yet. I.E. DNC03 etc. I don't have all of these yet...

Card numbers, sIKE? I picked up the first 3 letters: OCD...
 ;D
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on November 05, 2013, 03:10:53 pm
Are we done with spoilers from AW? We haven't seen anything since last Friday.....
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on November 05, 2013, 04:56:11 pm
It stopped right after the box openings happened on boardgamegeek. I'd guess they thought 'what's the point?'.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Aylin on November 06, 2013, 08:36:39 pm
All I am really missing at this point are the card numbers that I haven't been able to figure out yet. I.E. DNC03 etc. I don't have all of these yet...

Card numbers, sIKE? I picked up the first 3 letters: OCD...
 ;D

I believe you mean OCPD
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on November 07, 2013, 02:10:08 am
So from the new rule book posted, we now know and can confirm

Snatch = pull 1
Unproot X = pay X to lose Rooted this action
Vigilant = place guard marker on it at end of action

I was a bit surprise that Rooted plants with Uproot can move 2 zones for the cost of X
Togorah is pretty amazing
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Moonglow on November 07, 2013, 09:53:47 am
Why/how 2 zones?

So from the new rule book posted, we now know and can confirm

Snatch = pull 1
Unproot X = pay X to lose Rooted this action
Vigilant = place guard marker on it at end of action

I was a bit surprise that Rooted plants with Uproot can move 2 zones for the cost of X
Togorah is pretty amazing
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: jacksmack on November 07, 2013, 09:55:30 am
Why/how 2 zones?

So from the new rule book posted, we now know and can confirm

Snatch = pull 1
Unproot X = pay X to lose Rooted this action
Vigilant = place guard marker on it at end of action

I was a bit surprise that Rooted plants with Uproot can move 2 zones for the cost of X
Togorah is pretty amazing


Because one move action followed by a quick action you choose to be a second move action?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Moonglow on November 07, 2013, 12:23:47 pm
So...he's surprised that by paying mana they can move like normal... It was the way it was phrased seemed more like a special move than normal movement.

But in response, weeds! I mean you come out one day and they seem to have just spread and moved all over the place over night.  And definately end up places you're sure they weren't yesterday! :)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on November 07, 2013, 12:27:42 pm
I was a bit surprised also, I was thinking they would loose the Rooted trait and gain the Lumbering trait....
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on November 07, 2013, 12:48:29 pm
Togorah can move 2 then guard with intercept. That's awesome.
It breaks the slow Treant / Ent idea (the ones that even talk so sloooowly as they live so long and time relatively moves faster for them).
It's obviously balancing to get them out of reach of a horde of Lumbering Zombies.

The other key point was Fast counters Slow but Fast does not counter Lumbering.
So a Zombie Crawler or Zombie Reanimate can Charge to move 2 but not other Zombies...
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on November 07, 2013, 01:01:39 pm
Agreed, there are other creatures that aren't giant akward tree vines things that walk around slowly. If enchanted with mana the Thornlasher who is rooted into the ground is faster than a Hydra (a creature with actual legs). That's a weird thought. I imagined Ents walking around, super slow like Deck Mentioned.  Turns out that's not the case at all. I thought the rooted was going to be more of a restriction than it actually is. Mana is King in this game though, so in actual gameplay maybe they won't be moved very often. 
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: lettucemode on November 07, 2013, 02:43:56 pm
It is weird to think of trees and plants sprinting around, but don't forget that the Druid has to pay mana every time they move. She's basically playing against an indestructible Suppression Orb every game. Not to mention that almost every creature with a melee attack also has Rooted, meaning that there is a additional cost to these creatures if you don't want your opponent to simply sit back and shoot everything down.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Qube on November 07, 2013, 03:00:19 pm
Actually, I believe fast does counter lumbering.

Lumbering
Object Trait

This creature is slow and/or clumsy. It may only take one move action during its Action Phase. If this creature gains the Fast trait, it cancels out both traits.

Also, zombie frenzy cancels out both slow and lumbering, then gives all zombies the fast trait... so they will be sprinting and attacking (when properly motivated).

Besides, Tolkien's ents took forever to make up their minds, but once they got going, they were fast enough ... so, the mechanic kinda fits.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on November 07, 2013, 03:07:04 pm
Lumbering (Object Trait)
This creature is clumsy and/or hobbled. It is always hindered, and thus it can only take up to 1 move action during its Action Phase, even if it gains the Fast trait.

The reason why Zombie Frenzy (full action) says what it says in that sequence is to give all Zombies an over-riding Fast trait. Apart from that, Lumbering is an over-riding trait which seems anti-intuitive when it is not meant to be as debilitating as Slow. Another balancer no doubt.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on November 07, 2013, 03:10:30 pm
It is weird to think of trees and plants sprinting around, but don't forget that the Druid has to pay mana every time they move. She's basically playing against an indestructible Suppression Orb every game. Not to mention that almost every creature with a melee attack also has Rooted, meaning that there is a additional cost to these creatures if you don't want your opponent to simply sit back and shoot everything down.

Thornlasher solves this to some extent. It's probably the most interesting Druid creature, just 7 mana and 2 spell points for a great control effect.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Qube on November 07, 2013, 03:15:59 pm
Hmmm... must have been a last minute balance thing.  Because I took my lumbering definition off the spoilers page, and yours is from the rulebook.  So, within a month or two they changed the lumbering rules.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Qube on November 07, 2013, 03:20:03 pm
Yeah, loving the thornlasher.  It also has some nice synergy with the druid's new bloodspine wall (that does not block LOS).
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: aquestrion on November 07, 2013, 03:45:27 pm
Thornlasher through blood spine wall wow nice
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on November 07, 2013, 05:02:28 pm
So a Zombie Crawler or Zombie Reanimate can Charge to move 2 but not other Zombies...

So having no legs (like a Crawler) is less debilitating for a Charge double movement than other Zombies. Can somebody please explain why they changed Lumbering to be so anti-intuitive, in rare cases worse than Slow?

So some Plants can move further in 1 round than Zombies with legs. Omnivorous Zombies are Bloodthirsty, feasting on Plants that can't Bleed (a side order of veg is good with your daily brains). Thornlasher is harmed by Poison effects but Flowers (who squirt acid or poison up to the sky) are immune yet both can't move out of their zone. Realism and consistency was jettisoned for contrived balance.

However Plant creatures (only) can Sleep. To paraphrase Philip K Dick's Bladerunner novel: "Do Plants dream of Carnivorous Sheep?"

I keep contending retaining Fantasy Realism is the game's most valuable asset and sadly this set has eroded it. I really love ideas like Thornlasher. But there are others which make me sad because they destroy the illusion. When teaching the game, players always say "hey it all makes sense!". Its charming intuitiveness should not be compromised. It is its Unique Selling Point in the games market. And you don't destroy your USP.

I will have to learn how to use a scanner to sign that form so I'm no longer so critical in public and can voice my concerns earlier.

I hate criticising this game as I feel so disloyal. I love this game and whilst there are so many clever ideas in this very ambitious set, this set has moved closer to Magic's "I equip my Loxodon Warhammer to my Bird of Paradise". Magic's clever abstract mechanics will always win in that territory. So don't try to compete there.

Please play to your strengths, that deep, intuitive and immersive skirmish role-playing illusion that is Mage Wars.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on November 07, 2013, 06:40:36 pm
With that said I would have loved to see more Rooted creatures without the possibility of moving. This not only gives her a very different flavor, but it's a thematic flavor that you would expect from a plant based mage. I love the idea of avoiding the really big baddies that are stationary. I also really like the snatch mechanic. Allows for the stationary to still bring a creature to same zone combat. This to me should have been implemented more rather than just giving them the ability to move. It would add a whole new level of planning for the Druid. Her gameplan would have to be a lot more fleshed out than most. It would almost give her style a dangerous maze of creatures of sorts. One you have to avoid or attack. But again, to me that is very thematic as it gives the board more of a dangerous forest like feel.  It's a missed opportunity imo. She is different enough to not be a Beastmaster spinoff, but I would have liked to see more unique mechanics change to set her apart from the rest.

As a side note I have always had a beef with the fact that only "Creature" based plants are susceptible to poison's when non creature plants state they are alive. I would think any and all living organisms could be poisoned unless they were immune. In my book, if they are capable enough to regenerate, they can also die by poison. Besides, poisoning plants just makes sense. 

Alas I wish everything could thematically make sense. At the end of the day however this is a game, one that needs balance. It's easy to lose track of that when so much is alarmingly realistic. In their credit, I'm sure they feel just as strongly as us that they want everything to make as much sense as possible, but some things need to be tweaked or skewed for the sake of the game.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Zuberi on November 07, 2013, 09:10:29 pm
Who said only creature based plants are susceptible to poison's? If a conjuration has the Living trait, it no longer has Poison Immunity, right?
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Kharhaz on November 07, 2013, 09:18:04 pm
Who said only creature based plants are susceptible to poison's? If a conjuration has the Living trait, it no longer has Poison Immunity, right?

Correct. Living replaces the Non living trait.

You can rot Mohktari or any living conjuration

He might be referring to Idol of Pestilence's arena damage, but that specifically states damage to living creatures.




Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on November 07, 2013, 09:40:38 pm
Oh Awesome! I was under the opposite understanding. Great news for me and my Poison Based Necro!!!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on November 08, 2013, 12:14:17 am
Who said only creature based plants are susceptible to poison's? If a conjuration has the Living trait, it no longer has Poison Immunity, right?

I did not say Poison Immunity, I said "Poison effects by" which I meant poison damage and effects such as...

Altar of Skulls (which unlike Deathlock does not even give conjurations Finite Life)
Idol of Pestilence
Poison Gas Cloud
Malaconda
Weak counters
Ichthelid counters
Ghoul Rot
Plagued
Poisoned Blood
Cripple counters (irrelevant as conjurations don't have action markers to move)

In all the above cases, a Thornlasher is affected but a Flower is not.

You can place Rot or Tainted on a Living Conjuration and attack them with rare poison attacks (a Lotus is not immune to another Lotus). But that's it. In all other cases, Living Conjurations effectively have "most cases poison immunity" as they are excluded from those effects.

The rules were rife differentiating between Living Creatures and Living Conjurations yet this difference seems purely artificial for Plants.

You can't target Living Conjurations with most spells whilst having an action marker means you can
You can't heal Living Conjurations except by innate Regeneration or new Renewing Rain or Butterfly
You can't remove Rot or Tainted off a Living Conjuration using Priestess's Restore or Healing Wand

I appreciate that mechanically, they had to give Thornlasher an action marker as giving it a ready marker action like a Flower (you can only have 1 of each in a zone with 0 range effect) would be open to abuse with Thornlasher's range 1 effect (up to 5 zones).

The solution would have been to play-test Druid under a rules amendment: "Any effect that cites Creature includes Living Conjurations". Effectively undo the inconsistency in the base set which was only ever visible in 2 cards before this: Tanglevine and Wall of Thorn. But this was not done. And so those inconsistencies have been propagated.

I brought this up 2 months ago in my "House Rules (and some clarifications)" thread (Rules section), still being addressed in a new FAQ.

I feel bad highlighting this because the ambition of Plants is laudable and some of the creativity excellent. It just had rules inconsistencies to begin with that could not be fixed really. Creature based description enchantments applied to Plant creatures? Yet the game demands action markers for its dynamic. This was always going to be a Pandora's Box to open. I'm surprised they did not have a War Mage against the second Dark Mage just to round off the card pool more evenly, bring Warlord back in. It would not have had the Life vs. Death concept but it would have filled in the gaps instead of propagating fantasy realism issues. Oh well, hindsight is a wonderful thing. Most of the new cards are very interesting and I am looking forward to playing them. Just that they are eroding their USP and probably their greatest asset.

New player: "Dad, why does the Poison Gas Cloud hurt the Thornlasher but not the Flower? It don't make sense!"

And so this mechanical aspect of the game which creates inconsistency and a spell category-based artificiality destroys the illusion. :(
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: jacksmack on November 08, 2013, 02:46:24 am
Agreed, there are other creatures that aren't giant akward tree vines things that walk around slowly. If enchanted with mana the Thornlasher who is rooted into the ground is faster than a Hydra (a creature with actual legs). That's a weird thought. I imagined Ents walking around, super slow like Deck Mentioned.  Turns out that's not the case at all. I thought the rooted was going to be more of a restriction than it actually is. Mana is King in this game though, so in actual gameplay maybe they won't be moved very often.

thornlasher does not have uproot.....
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: lettucemode on November 08, 2013, 07:34:22 am
Look Deckbuilder, it's very simple. Mage Wars uses the does-it-have-a-mouth test to differentiate between creatures and conjurations. After all, if it doesn't have a mouth, how can it breathe in poison? So you see? Simple!

 :P

In seriousness though, I pretty much agree with you. I think that living conjurations could have been pulled off pretty well except for two things.

First, I don't think conjurations should have attacks, with rare exceptions such as Temple of Light. This is basically for consistency. Players can easily understand that if you want attacks, play creatures; if you want persistent effects, play conjurations. Once conjurations get attacks it starts blurring the line between the functional difference of the two card types, which also affects the thematic aspect.

Second, the new Rooted and Uproot keywords. Now we don't even have the distinction of "conjurations can't move, but creatures can". It seems like Thornlasher was only made a creature for balance/mechanics purposes, i.e. attaching enchantments and avoiding ready marker actions. However a great deal of its functionality would be exactly the same if it was a conjuration instead. So now, whether to make a new card a creature with Rooted or a conjuration is decided based on how the designers/playtesters want the existing rules and cards to interact with them and not for thematic reasons.

Having said all that I am still super pumped for this set. Just wish it would get here!
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wildhorn on November 08, 2013, 08:01:40 am
Personnally I always considered that the difference between a creature and a conjuration is that creatures act by themselves while conjurations require mage/exterior intervention to act (if they can act).
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Kharhaz on November 08, 2013, 10:56:22 am

The solution would have been to play-test Druid under a rules amendment: "Any effect that cites Creature includes Living Conjurations". Effectively undo the inconsistency in the base set which was only ever visible in 2 cards before this: Tanglevine and Wall of Thorn. But this was not done. And so those inconsistencies have been propagated.


Every card went through different versions, some more radical than others. (Flowers at one time were creatures for example) I'm not going to get to deep into it but there was a many hours spent deciding on the line between creature and conjuration, I assure you.

It is not inconsistent for one spell to effect one thing and for another to effect something else:

Nullify does not stop attack spell, but they are clearly magic spells targeting your mage. So it's not crazy to assume that they should be able to nullify them. I mean nullify will stop a magical force of energy knocking me down (ie knockdown) but will not stop a invisible force of energy hitting me in the face (ie invisible fist). Square peg, round hole.

Poison gas cloud and Malacoda have never damaged Moihktar, mana flower or tangle vine. It has never been an issue in my experiences explaining this game.

And I will wrap this thought on this. Mohktaris branch removes burns or weak conditions on a thornlasher but not a bitterwood fox. It is not an issue because that's not what the card designed to do. Rhino hide was designed to increase the armor of a creature, not make the, tree bonded, etherian life tree that much harder to kill.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on November 09, 2013, 09:30:08 am
@Kharhaz. The last time we disagreed was when your argument was based on what was "absurd", ie. you made a fantasy reality check.

Conjurations, like a temple, can not be guarded from flyers and rightfully so because the inverse is more absurd. Sure you get some "wonky" intances where my goblin can not protect a flower but that is better than my goblin protecting a poison gas cloud and adds benefits to flying to make it a more desirable trait.

All I was saying here is...
(a) Mage Wars is excellent because it tries to avoid the "absurd" so everything is intuitive, it all makes sense
(b) this is different to games which pay no heed to realism, just rules mechanics and different card interactions
(c) this Mage Wars game strangth should not be eroded because it appeals to roleplayers and simulationists

Your reply above focuses on Nullify which is just a game mechanic card. There is no reality check with a mechanic card. It's like arguing "why is Dispel range 2 and Dissolve range 1?" Because it is.

A Charging Crawler with no legs being able to move 2 zones whilst his Charging Zombie brethren with legs cannot is a realism issue. That last minute insertion of an extra clause (not in spoiler text) to make Lumbering situationally worse has resulted in "something odd with the rules here". My guess is that clause was added (since Lumbering was spoilt) due to fears of Mage Wand + Charge + Zombie Brutes (I would fear Mage Wand + Force Wave with 4 Brutes more). It's galling because it seems so unnecessary (like the Outpost nerf).

A similar "something is odd here" was Rooted Plants suddenly Uprooting (at a minor mana cost deterrent) and moving 2 zones, faster than many creatures. Because the fantasy trope of a Treant / Ent is of a Slow Lumbering creature, this again goes against expectations and destroys the fantasy illusion.

Now give that uprooted plant creature Cheetah Speed and it can move 2 and attack. Or give it Eagle Wings and it can fly when Uproot cost is paid else it's Rooted but can only be attacked by Flyers or Reach. I'm highlighting how enchantments designed for creatures with Legs (humanoids and animals) just don't transfer to Plant creatures.

This ambitious idea of Plants moved the game into Magic's terrirtory of simply card interaction mechanics. Magic pays lip service to theme but does not care how ridiculous some card combination are, rewarding some of the most absurd combos which are regarded as clever.

It isn't just living creature enchantments. Non-transference to Plants exists in so many other mechanics. Bleed was designed to keep with real life. Plants can't Bleed as they have no Blood and the designers specifically acknowleged this in the game mechanic. But seeing that broken branch triggers the Bloodthirsty Dire Wolf and Zombie into attacking that damaged Plant creature with a Poisoned Blood cast on it. Sleep is another condition that is not intuitively transferable.

Your prior post here highlighted Rot as affecting both Living Conjurations and Living Creatures. Great! Along with Tainted, you highlighted consistency of approach. Treat both the same. But for all the other Poison effects, they are not the same. You say "that's just the rules, live with it." Of course I'll live with it. I play Eurogames which are just a collection of rules mechanics. My point is Mage Wars is better than that! It should strive to be consistent and intuitive and thematic wherever possible. Because that is its greatest asset, its USP in the market.

On an abstract mechanistic level, I see a lot of great creativity in the new set. I can say the same for many Magic sets but that didn't stop it being just a game of abstract card interactions with a pseudo-theme that often doesn't make sense. Did nobody highlight this divergence from the preceding principle of "it all makes sense"? 

It's laudable being supportive of the game. But blind support is destructive. That way lies sycophancy when the Emperor needs someone to tell him that his New Clothes are slipping off. Please don't get angry with me again, Karhaz, like that first time when I'd used the A-word you detest. It's because of its Ameritrash qualities of theme over abstract mechanics that I love this game. When I play with or against the Druid, I will have to suspend my disbelief and treat it as a more abstract experience, like Mage Knight, just admire the ingenuity of some of the new mechanics. Because the blatant non-transference of existing mechanics to Plant creatures will destroy the immersive illusion.

There is a reason why Fantasy Roleplaying player races are medium or small humanoids. Because anything else just doesn't work. You can't be a Treant and fit in a game with magic items. You can't even be a large humanoid like Ogre that can't fit through a tavern door. Now Mage Wars owes a lot to that games genre, the skirmish roleplay that uses a battlemap. The game's consistency with fantasy tropes with only rare lapses (I can't water my burning flower) was laudable. I just fear the game could lose this, become just another card interactions game with mechanistic rules and realism compromised. I think losing that USP would be a great shame.

My House Rules thread was very unpopular because it higlighted gaping rules ambiguities, which we are told are being addressed in the next FAQ (the game is now too high profile to be "that independent gem with grey area rules", this needs to done). I was doing a service to the game but I was villified by some for highlighting issues that needed to be addressed.

This was the same motivation behind me querying a marketing strategy of releasing competitive promo cards, creating a 2-tier fan base.
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=12908.msg21252#msg21252
This led to Shad0w quite sensibly saying promo cards are a great beta test but this was then overruled by a Director that all promo cards will be eventually released exactly as is. I think Altar of the Iron Guard is bit broken as Legendary denial, Plagued should be in this set etc). A shame about Shad0w's beta test idea as fans would love to be more involved like that, it would add to their pleasure to feedback promo experiences and feel more involved, free crowd-sourced insights in the age of the InterWeb. We shall see where that "exactly as is" goes.

Here all I'm simply highlighting is that if Mage Wars wants to remain that slavishly intuitive "it all makes sense" game that many (like me) fell in love with for that very intuitive quality, then a (slight) wrong turning may have been made with a Plant mage due to non-transference of existing cards and mechanics on an intuitive level. Else we may get Aquatic creatures with the Siren. And the game would've jettisoned what I feel is its strongest most charming quality and changed into yet another abstract card interactions game. This change wouldn't stop me wanting to buy every product but I'll mourn a loss of realism which Mage Wars has, unlike competitor games. Why give up on a USP? This is why I hope Plants may be viewed as a slight mis-step on the realism level, lessons learnt to not erode the USP in future releases. I hope future plans for Mage Wars would be to retain its USP of "it all makes sense" charm but I will devour releases whatever the plans, trusting in the design team.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Fentum on November 09, 2013, 10:21:37 am
@deckbuilder...

I have to wildly agree with your views. I love this game. Probably my favourite game yet, and I have tried many. The intuitive aspect is great. It makes all the complex information easy to use in actual play.

I haven't played the druid yet, but reading your post, I am kinda dreading trying to remember which traits and effects and so on affect plants vs. creatures.

Living and non living is fine, but I worry about the bloodthirsty example, etc. above.

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: sIKE on November 09, 2013, 10:31:07 am
Deckbuilder, what I find fascinating with your arguments is  they sound like you are arguing for Einsteinian Physic's (I know you are not it is just a holder for your position) in a world of magic. Sure the mage in Sortilege that created the Eagle Wings spell never envisioned it being placed on a Ent, but as it is Living Creature and it is not restricted to Animals only(by design) that is life in the world of magic (I am using the little m on purpose). Magic (with a little m) does great and fantastical thing that can only be imagined here in our mundane would. Once again I am not attacking you and your ideas, just trying to get across from my own perspective that the world of Etheria is ruled by magic and as such, all things within will not fit neatly in boxes and square pegs can go in round holes....
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on November 09, 2013, 10:59:51 am
@Fentum. I'm with you. I'm a fan whatever. I just hope the "I don't need to refer to rules because it all makes sense" continues.

@sIKE I take your point. It's fantasy, we don't need to have a Science Book on Magic. One may argue it's an easy get-out for unregimented thinking. But I like chaotic thinking, I believe some of the most creative outputs come from entropy and free-form brainstorming (hence my signature). But a game needs structure (hence highlighting those rules ambiguities).

If we follow freeform style "anything can be exlained" approach, we get Magic's "I equip my Loxodon Warhammer on my Bird of Paradise" situation which was cited (not by me, I think by ring) as a great strength of Mage Wars which didn't allow such ridiculous card attachments. The reason my prior post (that Karhaz quoted) used the phrased "compete in Magic's territory" is because, as a marketer, this may not be the clever thing to do.

Here we have a 2 player boardgame that satisfies customisation, has a unique tutoring mechanic and combines elements seen in many other games into something that is miles better than the sum of its parts. It is the only hybrid card/boardgame out there that satisfies
(a) roleplayers - who want first-person realism
(b) miniatures players - who want battlefield realism
(c) deck players - who want customisation for strategising
(d) boardgame players - who want tactics with space/time
It is an amazingly intuitive hybrid game that most of all is fun to play - because it is so intuitive, second nature.

Why on earth would you want to disenfranchise yourself with the former 2 fan base elements? It can never compete due to card pool with Magic (or even AGOT) nor would it want to because people are very wary of LCG and CCG cost to enter and ongoing cost. Its boardgame mechanics are beatifully simple and appropriate but does not compete with some of the cleverer boardgame mechanics of Eurogames.

So this hybrid game is unique, it's "Level 2 in all 4 Schools of Gaming" (where Level 4 is the game most associated with that genre), but that makes it Level 8, more than its competitors. That's how I view Mage Wars (using Schools and D&D's multi-classing). All I am saying is they should be wary of destroying that unique balance.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on November 09, 2013, 11:50:57 am
@deckbuilder

You are my hero. I agree 100% with what you've said here.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Kharhaz on November 09, 2013, 12:41:10 pm
@Kharhaz. The last time we disagreed was when you argument was based on what was "absurd", ie. you made a fantasy reality check.


Funny old world ain't it :P

I was clarified on the issue and while i do not agree that is how it is.

@ Deck

I know I was talking about flying and root the final days and I am sure there will be "rooted creatures are not flying blah blah blah" text. 

End of the day there is no reason a plant monster can not have cheetah speed and a goblin or mana leech can. I am reading your post as:

"A plant moving two zones and attacking is immersion breaking; while it is perfectly acceptable to have Sosroku flying, bear strengthen, vampiric, rhino hided....."

However enchantments, like divine intervention, clearly show magic effects silhouettes around the creature effecting it. This is a more accurate representation of how they actually work and not creative artistry from my understanding. So as silly is it is for Togorah to fly, its more like he has eagle wings silhouette and when he uproots can take off into the air.

Plants moving two zones in no different than creatures moving two zones. Mechanically or otherwise.

I am with you in some regards. I had many discussions with Baron about the:
"Why can I treebond with Mohktari and not Togorah?"

There will always be give and take. Your goblin can guard and prevent my bird from dive bombing an outpost?

Plant creatures are more than your average fern and have enough of a though process to guard and act like any soldier creature or animal. In this fantasy world it would appear that a plant creature can indeed bleed the essence of whatever sustains itself. Blood it may not be but it oozes enough blood for some creatures to go into a killing frenzy.....

In the game as a whole I see this a one of the minor immersion breaking effects to be honest.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: HomelessJoe on November 09, 2013, 12:57:25 pm
Though I agree 100% with Deckbuilder I'm not sure they are realistic. Deck has compared MW to Magic the Gathering quite a bit. I think we have to remember that MW is a baby of a game. Magic has been going strong for 20 years. In the early days of Magic more things made sense than didn't. I think this is the pitfall for any game that tries to be realistic yet releases expansions. I say different because the only way I see that they could continue down the path we want is to just recycle traits and mechanics without making any effort for new creativity. This too has been done by many of game companies, both board game and video game. When this is done their fanbase explodes with hatred that it's just the same old same old. It's the easy way out. So, it's basically a no win situation to keep all MW fans happy. They have chosen to continue to explore new mages/magic/ mechanics etc. while playtesting the hell out of it to make sure that even if it isn't completely realistic it at least doesn't break the game. For me this is WAY better of a choice than the alternative. Do I wish ever card or mechanic was ultra realistic and intuitive with every other card. Of course. It's clear they try their best to make most cards/mechanics intuitive while still breaking new ground. Once you make peace with that it makes swallowing the bad stuff a little easier.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Moonglow on November 09, 2013, 01:56:57 pm
I agree with your master premis Deck, but disagree with some of your subtext.

Ents travelled huge distances in lotr, and from memory there are instances of the old forests moving overnight. So I disagree with rooted creature fast movement breaking fantasy tropes.

I thought your house rules thread was well received and discussed. Not sure why you feel so marginalised. You throw out so many interesting threads and posts it seems clear that they're going to attract a lot of the tire kicking and debate. In fact I think it's almost more surprising how often some of your threads an ideas just get unequivocal applause.

I'm sure there have been other threads about plants and Bloodthirsty that outlined a number of plausible explanations. For instance it could be less about the 'smell of blood'  as the sight of a wounded creature/entity. More a drive to destroy impulse. Or as proposed, animated plant sap might be more like blood than conventional world sap.

These kinds of thematic twists bother me less than things like the hydro immunity approach on plants. I agree with you that where the rules are counter intuitive then the elegance and appeal of the game is weakened. It can survive a few such rules, but the trouble with a game like this with so many concepts, the more mini exceptions and counter intuitive rules to be kept track of, the quicker it spirals into a chore to play. 
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on November 09, 2013, 02:18:17 pm
"A plant moving two zones and attacking is immersion breaking; while it is perfectly acceptable to have Sosroku flying, bear strengthen, vampiric, rhino hided....."

However enchantments, like divine intervention, clearly show magic effects silhouettes around the creature effecting it. This is a more accurate representation of how they actually work and not creative artistry from my understanding. So as silly is it is for Togorah to fly, its more like he has eagle wings silhouette and when he uproots can take off into the air.

Plants moving two zones in no different than creatures moving two zones. Mechanically or otherwise.

I am with you in some regards. I had many discussions with Baron about the:
"Why can I treebond with Mohktari and not Togorah?"

There will always be give and take. Your goblin can guard and prevent my bird from dive bombing an outpost?

Plant creatures are more than your average fern and have enough of a though process to guard and act like any soldier creature or animal. In this fantasy world it would appear that a plant creature can indeed bleed the essence of whatever sustains itself. Blood it may not be but it oozes enough blood for some creatures to go into a killing frenzy.....

In the game as a whole I see this a one of the minor immersion breaking effects to be honest.

Thanks for the nice measured reply, Kharhaz. I was dreading you'd take it badly. Here's hoping to keep it light...


Living Creature Enchantments

Maybe because Sosruko is a living animal you can in your mind's eye mutate (like experiments in classic The Island of Dr Moreau), I don't have a problem with an annoying ferret morphing with the attachments you name. After all, look at the Owlbear, a Gygax invention of a mad wizard's experiment. When I put Eagle Wings on Steelclaw, I call him Smokey the Owlbear (after ring posted an anti-forest fires poster).

Manticore is another D&D trope I think though it may be mythological like Naga, Sphinx, Lamia, Griffin, Pegasus, Centaur, Harpy, Chimera, all of these are hybrids of animals and/or humanoid component.

Strangely enough, there've never been experiments with Plants. As that old mad experimenter's axiom goes: "blood and sap do not mix". Maybe that's why I have difficulty relating to some of these card interactions. But it's a personal thing and if Arcane Wonders thinks this is fine, then who am I to disagree.


Conditions

Remembering which conditions affect living conjurations and which don't isn't great really. Some vegetables help a Ghoul to grow and some don't (it's clear on the card at least). Some conditions work with Plant creatures that you may not expect like Sleep and Bloodthirsty. And some don't like Druid's Lifebond as you pointed out.

I know it's been done for game balance but these artificial differences jar. Because Mage Wars becomes like other games: "It's the rules".


Uproot

The thing about Uproot is the threat. I can enter a zone adjacent to an active Hydra and not worry too much. But I can't walk next to an active Togorah or other Uproot. The deterrent is so valuable that the tiny mana cost is not an issue. I don't need to have a Thornlasher controlling adjacent areas (nice creature, snatch/pull is what a Harpy's ranged attack should have been). I can just have a monstrously under-costed plant (because it is Rooted) with Uproot threatening adjacent squares. Because unlike that Hydra, they are not Slow, they are nippy things when they put they put their mind to it. Who would have thought it...

"If you go down to the woods today, you're sure to get a surprise." I always thought it was a Timber Wolf but it's actually the nippy Plants...


A Solution?

One solution is a background story to post-rationalise these jarring differences, something like...

There was a magical event called The Awakening in Wychwood. This involved a Magical Rain which fell upon that area. Ever since then, plants from Wychwood have repelled water, causing some scholars to wonder how they survive.

Some plants there became sentient and a skilled mage could even add features from the animal kingdom to these sentient plants. The smell of their sap also drives some creatures into a feeding frenzy. Some sentient plants could even uproot themselves and walk using their roots like legs, but this requires considerable concentration on the part of the summoning mage (it's a little known fact that plants are secretly very lazy, in fact left alone they will fall asleep and dream of their saproling youth).

The plants who weren't sentient also gained unexpected benefits such as resilience to many poisons that their sentient cousins lacked. And so a great divide arose between sentient plants ("the fruits") and non-sentient plants ("the vegetables").


:)
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Kharhaz on November 09, 2013, 03:01:39 pm

Thanks for the nice measured reply, Kharhaz. I was dreading you'd take it badly. Here's hoping to keep it light.




The same conditions effect living conjurations and living creatures. It's the targeting and source I think you are arguing. Why does lock and necro's ablity but malcoda and poison cloud do not?

I would make the argument that all plant creatures be conjurations, but that created a huge issue with actions between actions among other things.

100% "realism" would be nice but at the end of the day "it's in the rules" is far superior to "it's more realistic". "It's more realistic" is not a game that is fun or balanced and would ultimately fail and then it's all a moot point. Mage Wars must never forget that it is a customize able card game first and foremost.



Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on November 09, 2013, 03:32:24 pm
it's in the rules" is far superior to "it's more realistic"

I agree. But why not strive for both?

The game had both until now (barring a few incredibly rare instances and I wrote a thread titled "House Rules to retain fantasy realism" about it because there seemed to be no game balance need for these reality disjoints).

We'll never see eye-to-eye on this Karhaz. It's getting late here and my prior satire shows I've had a few too many sherries getting ready to go out. Thanks for the alternative view. We debate so vigorously because we both care.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Wiz-Pig on November 09, 2013, 04:10:09 pm
I think they are. Bleed was updated to not effect plant creatures. Perhaps we will get a patch on flying rooted interaction as we'll.
Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: Moonglow on November 10, 2013, 01:32:45 am
I guess to me the game ethos started with, 'play it the way that seemed to make sense' cause usually it would be the correct ruling.  I feel that the game is getting further and further away (perhaps slowly) from this position/ruling.

it's in the rules" is far superior to "it's more realistic"

I agree. But why not strive for both?

Title: Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
Post by: DeckBuilder on November 10, 2013, 06:54:48 am
Perhaps we will get a patch.

You are right, Wiz, about "patches". Everybody accepts patches with software when glitches are found, there is no shame and in fact it is considered good software support. Other long-lived card-based games release FAQs constantly, accepting some unforeseen interaction needs to be amended. Arcane Wonders should similarly accept playtesters are human (allegedly) and some things will be missed.

There is nothing game-imbalancing here (though I have a few untested concerns), just counter-intuitive. There are a growing number of areas where, if the game had been designed to this stage originally, the design could have been tighter, simpler and more elegant with less counter-intuitive rules. They have re-released Tanglevine with Vine subtype (2 copies), propagating that Hydro Immunity (solved by rule change), but this was a tacit admission of a lack of longterm planning. It's totally understandable for a small independent company.

We had Cripple (poison) counters just for a Basilisk then they realised they needed the more generic Stuck condition. Instead of creating generic Pull (towards) or Push (away) or Slide (any), we now have Snatch. But if they create a Lure effect (like a Harpy, Siren, Flower scent or Illusion), Snatch is far too physical a keyword so they will have to create a new one. There is Light damage (radiant in D&D) for celestial sources but no evil opposite (necrotic). The Living/Nonliving divide would benefit with "Outsider" subtype (extra-dimensional) as a Demon, Angel, Mythic (arcane) or Aberrant (mind) are all Living Outsiders, whilst Nonliving Outsiders have no Psychic Immunity (Elemental plane denizens like Earth Elemental, Whirling Spirit and Invisible Stalker). There are 6 unevenly supported major schools with little fleshed-out relationships (Dark vs. Holy, Arcane uses external power sources vs. Mind that uses internal, Nature opposes the equipment/structures artifice of War?) whilst interactions of the 4 traditional elements are limited to Geyser/Extinguish (another keyword created after Geyser) for which Hydro Immunity causes issues. A differentiation between Life +X (Sunfire Amulet, Priestess, Bloodreaper) and Innate Life +X (size effects) which bypass Finite Life is another slight inelegance. The interactions of multi-strike X, multi-target X, counterstrike and first strike (like Temple Guard). There was future proofing (Frost, Defrost, Mana Transfer), yet to be used. But other keywords puzzle me. Incorporeal has 3 keywords (Nonliving, Uncontainable, Burnproof) but Nonliving is always listed: why? Would it not be more elegant to say "Nonliving includes Psychic Immunity unless it is Outsider subtype" than to have same two keywords repeated? Skeleton Sentry is not a Soldier but Skeleton Minion is, yet there is little Soldier support. Prior artificial differentiations between Living Conjurations and Living Creatures (only Renewing Rain uses Living Objects - hurrah!). This sounds like a long list but actually it's only a relatively small number of revised cards and new downloadable rules so as to cheaply convert from 1st to 2nd edition. The issue of course is current stock. You know a game is about to be release a revision when it is popular but out-of-stock. I for one can't wait for these minor clean-ups (but then I'm OCD).

Meantime, it's a "we will create a new keyword and counters for that" approach, haphazard with no grand pattern envisioned first (like with D&D's cosmology or Magic's 5 colour pentagram relationships with allied/enemy colours). The game is being designed modular, not with a holistic vision, and this befits a small independent games company. But if they want to make the game tighter, more structured, without annoying inconsistencies, they should consider conversion packs to a tighter second edition sooner (including those 3 errata cards). The longer they leave it, the more painful it will be. Descent, Runebound, Rune Wars, Duel of Ages, Cosmic Encounter, they all improved with a more coherent second edition. My fave big game Twilight Imperium III is on its third edition. Every good game goes through this "if only we had more foresight" revisions. Most importantly, doing it now, the patches (as Wiz calls it) will be just a few cheap conversion booster packs and new rulebook to download, minimising the cost for the most loyal fan base.

I know many don't care about a rigorous Science of Magic approach, many are happy with a "horses for courses" approach of adding new keywords and new markers with each set. That generic terms would be more elegant but a specific term is more thematic. In a bespoke approach, Basilisk's Crippled would be different to poison Stuck, instead Petrified (like Turn to Stone, 7+ return to normal). I'm confused why they are taking this approach when all those extra counters cost them profit (and create an ever-growing pool to rummage around).

Then there's the LCG Dilemma (I do not count Mage Wars as a LCG but more a boardgame with expansions as Core Set is so strong on its own). LCGs need new cards to breath life into a settled meta but there are no set rotations like in Magic. So after while, the cost barrier to entry is ridiculous (for AGOT, it's like $1100 according to latest Full Tilt article on cardgame.db). An LCG by definition becomes a victim of its own success with a dwindling market penetration of repeat purchasers. Now here I applaud Arcane Wonders marketing strategy. It is far more important to get new converts (market penetration) and to go slow with new sets (repeat purchase), especially as expansions are like optional mages to add to your repertoire. The unbelievable value of Core Set and amazing Customer Service immediately creates empathy for this plucky independent. But slow releases (compared to other card based games) makes it ideal for Conversion Packs to a new edition. Before the accumulated mass of Conversion Packs reaches that critical mass when people just don't bother switching to the new edition and are lost (like the D&D 3.5 fans who moved to Pathfinder). The longer they leave this needed transition, I suspect the more harm they inadvertently do to the longterm success of the game. I say this because I would love it to become HUGE in the games market.

Meantime, they have to navigate a delicate balance...

There is this problem they face, as succinctly described by Moonglow.

I agree with you that where the rules are counter intuitive then the elegance and appeal of the game is weakened. It can survive a few such rules, but the trouble with a game like this with so many concepts, the more mini exceptions and counter intuitive rules to be kept track of, the quicker it spirals into a chore to play. 

But as Joe insightfully explains, you have to be pragmatic and make compromises.

Though I agree 100% with Deckbuilder I'm not sure they are realistic. Deck has compared MW to Magic the Gathering quite a bit. I think we have to remember that MW is a baby of a game. Magic has been going strong for 20 years. In the early days of Magic more things made sense than didn't. I think this is the pitfall for any game that tries to be realistic yet releases expansions. I say different because the only way I see that they could continue down the path we want is to just recycle traits and mechanics without making any effort for new creativity. This too has been done by many of game companies, both board game and video game. When this is done their fanbase explodes with hatred that it's just the same old same old. It's the easy way out. So, it's basically a no win situation to keep all MW fans happy. They have chosen to continue to explore new mages/magic/ mechanics etc. while playtesting the hell out of it to make sure that even if it isn't completely realistic it at least doesn't break the game. For me this is WAY better of a choice than the alternative. Do I wish every card or mechanic was ultra realistic and intuitive with every other card. Of course. It's clear they try their best to make most cards/mechanics intuitive while still breaking new ground. Once you make peace with that it makes swallowing the bad stuff a little easier.

I don't know what the solution is here. On one hand, we crave new ideas, not more of the same (remember the feedback to Skeletons as being "just Dark versions of Holy" until we saw other cards that made it more unique?). Yet sometimes this may cross the tastes of some of their audience, or maybe just makes the game too much of a "have to refer to the rules" chore because it has too many counter-intuitive elements now (to quote Moonglow's fear).

I think the Necromancer cards are great (except for Lumbering's unnecessary last minute extra clause). Sure, there may have been some wrongly costed cards (Brute?). But they have plenty of new clever mechanics to be innovative, certainly not "more of the same". I just wish he faced the Paladin to support undeveloped War school instead (hence create a third playable mage in the Warlord). But mainly because interacting new Plant creatures with most existing cards (with an artificial differentiation for Plant conjurations) was fraught with danger as anyone could immediately spot "that doesn't feel right". I expected conjurations with action markers (as this is the crucial game dynamic), especially as it solves ready marker action abuse. Whilst there is an element of a "forest maze" in Druid cards (which is what I expected), because tactics includes moving, the Uproot flexibility was contrived for balance and game dynamics. Maybe what they needed was plant conjurations and those Fey forest humanoids that tended them (Wood Elves, Satyrs, Dryads etc). Animals are like humanoids. Plants are nothing like animals. Transference is fine as long as you accept it as game mechanics. But I feel that's doing Mage Wars a disservice.

This post has rambled far beyond its initial scope. I voiced these issues (related to Plant creature inconsistencies as a trigger) because there are related major strategic decisions that have to be coordinated. What games genre as market position? Which games consumer segments to appeal to? How to minimise pain of transition to a tighter design? How to solve the LCG Dilemma? Yet achieve that critical mass to open new distribution channels. Profit to reinvest in more resources for better product. And all the time not devaluing the love (no other word) and goodwill that has been built with the fan base. Hopefully, I am totally wrong and Plant creatures are not a minor mis-step in the strategic development of the game. I hope so because I wish them every success.