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Mage Wars => Mages => Topic started by: MrSaucy on November 20, 2016, 07:35:57 PM

Title: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: MrSaucy on November 20, 2016, 07:35:57 PM
I've played 5 games with Siren vs Paladin (as both mages). The Siren has lost every single game by a mile. She just seems very weak.

Sure, she can set up traps, but by the time she sets them up they only delay her troubles.

Her equipment is underwhelming. One of her rings is only useful for half of the rounds in the game while the other ring doesn't get a cost reduction from all water spells, only hydro and aquatic. Her ability to sustain psychic spells hasn't proven to be as helpful as I had hoped. She practically requires a Meditation Amulet since she seems to be constantly starved for mana.

I have been very disappointed with most of her creatures (save for Naiya, who is excellent). The sharks aren't strong enough. The pirates aren't strong enough. None of her level 1 or 2 creatures are worth casting because the most they can do is buy you time - The Siren appears to have a lot of ways to delay threats but few ways to actually deal with them, which is frustrating. The creatures she has that actually ARE effective are extremely expensive... which really makes me wonder why she only has channeling of 9. And then there is grapple, which honestly isn't that good. Even though its a condition marker it isn't hard to escape, and by the time my creatures do have something grappled they are half dead because I have few ways of keeping them alive.

As far as incantations go she has... well she really only has dissolve. And the only good water attack spell she has that you can cast regularly is surging wave.

What am I missing here? She comes off as a mage who is spread to thin with not enough focus on one thing.
Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: Puddnhead on November 20, 2016, 08:35:09 PM
It might help us to see what sort of a book you've built for her and how you're planning to win the game.

My experience with her is also limited but I feel like many of her tools are Top Notch.  Her trident is one of the best weapons in the game.  Her songs and her ability to extend them coupled with her Siren's Call give her unparalleled control over the arena.  Shallow Sea is incredibly powerful it's a zone wide 2-dice differential and Shoalsdeep Tidecaller is bonkers!
Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: Biblofilter on November 20, 2016, 11:08:15 PM
Well im like 1-10 with Siren vs all other mages atm.

Starting to do better with her, but still have a long way to go.

I really do like her, and to me it seems likes she is able to deal lots of sudden damage in a unique way.

Her songs pretty good to, unless you are facing non-living psychic immune creatures.



Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: wtcannonjr on November 21, 2016, 07:03:49 AM
My favorite opening for Siren at the moment is:

R1: Ring of Oceans Depth (2) + Move + Shallow Sea (4) = (13)
R2: Kraken (20) = (2)
R3: Naiya (11)

From here you can have Naiya support as a battleforge or cast more Shallow Seas. The Siren can save mana, use her Siren's Call and Trident. My next creature is usually a Merren Harpooner as their range attack is nice and has a chance to snatch into favorable terrain. If you want to play a longer game, you need to bring out the Echo of the Depths spawnpoint.

This opening is 2 - 0 so far defeating both a Paladin and an Anvil Throne Warlord.
Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: Halewijn on November 21, 2016, 07:13:53 AM
I agree on the Pirate-part. I have tried but without succes. The skeletons don't have a lot of synergy with the rest of her abilities, spells and they are squishy. I also haven't used the walls/urchins with succes yet. They cost a lot of mana indeed...

Apart from the undead pirates, I think the trick is to carefully wait to attack. Don't charge the opponent head on because her creatures can be easily killed, but let them come to you. Or pull them if they start turtling. Really make use of the initiative/tidal effects. kraken/leviathan are 2 amazing big guys, Naiya is amazing and the Trident is also pretty crazy.

I had a deck where my mage was supported by Naiya. I always used 1 round to hit with the trident and hit with all my creatures and attack spells and 1 round to summon new creatures and be more defensive. It worked out great.
Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: MrSaucy on November 21, 2016, 01:18:13 PM
It might help us to see what sort of a book you've built for her and how you're planning to win the game

Conjurations: 11
4 Shallow Sea
2 Bed of Urchins
1 Whirlpool

Equipment: 11
1 Ring of the Oceans Depths
1 Echo of the Depths
1 Shoalsdeep Trident
1 Leviathan Scale Armor
1 Meditation Amulet
1 Eagleclaw Boots

Creatures: 40
4 Shoalsdeep Tidecallers
1 Naiya
2 Merren Harpooner
2 Deptonne Berserker
1 Colossal Crab
1 Shoalsdeep Crocodile
1 Kraken
1 Sherean Leviathan

Enchantments: 30
2 Hydrothermal Vents
4 Drown
4 Lullaby
1 Song of Love
1 Healing Charm
1 Harmonize
1 Nullify
1 Block
1 Bear Strength
1 Regrowth
1 Akiros Favor
1 Brace Yourself

Incantations: 20
4 Dissolve
1 Minor Heal
1 Seeking Dispel
3 Dispel
1 Knockdown
1 Rouse the Beast
1 Battle Fury

Attacks: 8
4 Acid Ball
4 Surging Wave

I'm assuming Ring of Tides doesn't help her Trident full action attack since the attack is water and not specifically Hydro. If it does affect her Trident I would be playing it.

Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: ClockWork on November 22, 2016, 01:19:10 AM
I think the water symbol on her staff is hydro. Hydro and acid belong to water school, just as wind and lighting belong to Air school.
Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: MrSaucy on November 22, 2016, 03:13:09 AM
I think the water symbol on her staff is hydro. Hydro and acid belong to water school, just as wind and lighting belong to Air school.

I didn't think so. Acid Ball has the water symbol but only has the Acid subtype. Surging Wave has the water symbol and specifies that it has the Hydro subtype. Unless Acid Ball has a printing mistake I am lead to believe that an attack isn't Hydro unless explicitly stated. This is just like the case where the wizards lightning ring doesn't affect wind spells and his wind ring doesn't affect lightning spells. Both subtypes belong to the Air school but are exclusive.
Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: Halewijn on November 22, 2016, 03:34:03 AM
I think the water symbol on her staff is hydro. Hydro and acid belong to water school, just as wind and lighting belong to Air school.

I didn't think so. Acid Ball has the water symbol but only has the Acid subtype. Surging Wave has the water symbol and specifies that it has the Hydro subtype. Unless Acid Ball has a printing mistake I am lead to believe that an attack isn't Hydro unless explicitly stated. This is just like the case where the wizards lightning ring doesn't affect wind spells and his wind ring doesn't affect lightning spells. Both subtypes belong to the Air school but are exclusive.

Clockwork is correct here. Check the attack bar of [mwcard=DNA01]Acid Ball[/mwcard]. The green "blub" you see there is the symbol for acid while the little wave on the attack bar of [mwcard=MWSTX1CKA01]Surging Wave[/mwcard] and the trident symbolises a hydro attack. Just compare the trident with the [mwcard=MW1Q14]Lash of Hellfire[/mwcard] which does not have the flame subtype, but the attack itself is a flame attack.

Analogue:
[mwcard=MW1A03]Electrify[/mwcard] has the lightning-bolt symbol for lightning damage type while [mwcard=MW1A09]Jet Stream[/mwcard] has a little tornado that identifies wind.

For attacks on equipment, creatures and attack spells you should always check the attack bar to identify the damage type and not the subtype of the card in the upper right corner. There are currently no attack spells where the subtype of the spell and the damage type of the attack differ but this could change in the future.

The subtype in the upper right corner is the subtype of the spell itself while the damage type in the attack bar represents what hits the opponent in the face.
Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: wtcannonjr on November 22, 2016, 06:55:46 AM

The subtype in the upper right corner is the subtype of the spell itself while the subtype on the attack represents what hits the opponent in the face.

A clarification - the icons on the attack bar are called damage types and not subtypes in the rules. This can be useful to keep the terms separate due to other spell interactions.

I agree that the ring works with the hydro attack on her Trident.
Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: Halewijn on November 22, 2016, 07:03:23 AM
A clarification - the icons on the attack bar are called damage types and not subtypes in the rules. This can be useful to keep the terms separate due to other spell interactions.

Thanks. I edited my text.  :)
Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: Super Sorcerer on November 22, 2016, 11:00:45 AM
ב"ה
Just compare the trident with the [mwcard=MW1Q14]Lash of Hellfire[/mwcard] which does not have the fire subtype, but the attack itself is a fire attack.
While you are absolutely correct in your analysis and did a great job in explaining it, I just have to point out that the attack of the Lash of Hellfire is a "Flame" attack and not a "Fire" attack, as the name of that damage type is "Flame".
I totally agree with the other things you said here, the type of the attack (if any) is determined by the icons in the attack bar.
Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: Halewijn on November 22, 2016, 11:23:45 AM
Thanks. I missed some therminology in my explanation it seems.  :P (edited above)
Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: MrSaucy on November 22, 2016, 01:11:37 PM
Thanks for clearing that up. I will definitely be using Ring of Tides now since it works with the trident. Now what about equipment? If it doesn't say Hydro but has the water symbol does her Ring of the Oceans Depths let you pay less mana?

Is there any point to having Rust as Siren when you have Acid Ball? I know Rust is cheaper but it can just be dispelled
Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: Puddnhead on November 22, 2016, 01:24:14 PM
Thanks for clearing that up. I will definitely be using Ring of Tides now since it works with the trident. Now what about equipment? If it doesn't say Hydro but has the water symbol does her Ring of the Oceans Depths let you pay less mana?

Is there any point to having Rust as Siren when you have Acid Ball? I know Rust is cheaper but it can just be dispelled

I think it comes down to a style and meta choice.  You get both Acid Ball and Rust at cost.

Many of your other enchantments will have dissipate and not necessarily be targeted by a Dispel which would favor Acid Ball.

Acid Ball is not a guaranteed 2 corrode.  After seeing the Lost Grimoire spoilers Acid ball will probably be less favorable than Rust.

You could also plan to bleed them out with all of your bleed effects which bypasses armor and the need for either spell, but that may require you to run Deathlock/Poisoned Blood.
Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: Super Sorcerer on November 22, 2016, 01:58:19 PM
ב"ה
Is there any point to having Rust as Siren when you have Acid Ball? I know Rust is cheaper but it can just be dispelled
The main thing is that there are effects that remove conditions, just as there are effects that dispel enchantments. Against a priestess, corrodes are almost always only temporary, and many other mages use wand of healing and cure.
A secondary issue is that while acid resistance curently exist only in promos, generally an acid ball have a chance of reducing armor by only one, and tough -2 that anvil thrones got (and paladins could get through aura) that could combine with the belt that gives though -2 might also reduce the effect of an acid ball.
Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: Halewijn on November 22, 2016, 02:04:21 PM
Thanks for clearing that up. I will definitely be using Ring of Tides now since it works with the trident. Now what about equipment? If it doesn't say Hydro but has the water symbol does her Ring of the Oceans Depths let you pay less mana?

Is there any point to having Rust as Siren when you have Acid Ball? I know Rust is cheaper but it can just be dispelled
I don't see how the choice acid ball/rust is any different for the siren as for any other mage. Neither of her rings give any (dis)advantage on either card. (Although it is a curse and therefore a better option for warlocks.)

The ring only gives a discount if the spell has the hydro subtype. This is unrelated to the attack bar. So no, it would not give you a discount. Just to note, the ring of tides only gives the bonus to her ranged attack and not her melee attack. You see?
Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: Laddinfance on November 22, 2016, 02:25:29 PM
Thanks for clearing that up. I will definitely be using Ring of Tides now since it works with the trident. Now what about equipment? If it doesn't say Hydro but has the water symbol does her Ring of the Oceans Depths let you pay less mana?

Is there any point to having Rust as Siren when you have Acid Ball? I know Rust is cheaper but it can just be dispelled

The Trident has a hydro attack, but it is not a hydro spell. That is what the subtype would mean.
Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: MrSaucy on November 22, 2016, 02:47:07 PM
ב"ה
Is there any point to having Rust as Siren when you have Acid Ball? I know Rust is cheaper but it can just be dispelled
The main thing is that there are effects that remove conditions, just as there are effects that dispel enchantments. Against a priestess, corrodes are almost always only temporary, and many other mages use wand of healing and cure.
A secondary issue is that while acid resistance curently exist only in promos, generally an acid ball have a chance of reducing armor by only one, and tough -2 that anvil thrones got (and paladins could get through aura) that could combine with the belt that gives though -2 might also reduce the effect of an acid ball.

Those are some good points. It makes sense to have both Rust and Acid Ball. I think 4 Acid Ball might be overkill and I'll go 2 Rust and 2 Acid Ball.
Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: Biblofilter on November 22, 2016, 10:39:42 PM
Canīt see any reason why you should auto-loose with this book.

I would include 1+ Coral Reef, Swell and Tsunami.

Push and Pull just seems like it should be able to do some damage.

I think you are overdoing Drown? As i understand it the Suffocate markers goes away when people dispel it. So that would require a lot of mana for most of the time not much. One late game might be fine - maybe combo with Enchantment Trf and Arcane Ward?

Harmonize? On Echo of the Depths? Id worry about that getting dissolved. Meditation Amulet might get mana and creatures going, but you wont be able to do that much with Trident and Songs then.

Seems slow overall. (nothing that i have solved, and making them come to you should be fine)
Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: MrSaucy on November 23, 2016, 02:04:02 AM
I'm starting to win with Siren. The Spellbook wasn't the problem. She really is just hard to play. It sounds like common sense but you really need to control the center and use her built in abilities and equipment as much as possible. Her Trident, tidecallers, harpooners, and Siren Call can be combined to push enemies from trap to trap amazingly well. Coral Barrier is good for forcing the opponent through choke points.
Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: MrSaucy on November 23, 2016, 02:07:24 AM

I think you are overdoing Drown? As i understand it the Suffocate markers goes away when people dispel it. So that would require a lot of mana for most of the time not much.

I thought Suffocate was a condition marker. The spell and codex say nothing about removing them when they are dispelled (in which case I feel like the spell would be nearly useless.)
Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: MrSaucy on November 23, 2016, 02:12:07 AM
Okay correction: it says Drown gets a suffocation marker. That definitely makes it not as good. Still great for enemies with 8 or less health since you are taking away at least 25% of their health. But I'm not putting in 4 anymore.
Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: MrSaucy on November 24, 2016, 01:39:32 AM
Sooo just won another game. Did 20 damage in one round. Siren has some ridiculous combos.
Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: Phillus on January 01, 2017, 02:51:44 AM
The opposite happened to me.
Me and my friend played with the Starter Spellbooks.
2 games as Siren then Swap books, two games as Paladin.
4 out of the 4 games Siren won.
Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: Puddnhead on January 01, 2017, 08:26:09 AM
I believe that the starter books are imbalanced.  The Paladin needs a few more tricks from the core set and the Siren could benefit greatly from Rust and Acid Ball.
Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: Super Sorcerer on January 02, 2017, 10:53:53 AM
ב"ה
The Paladin's starting book got loads of creatures, and a spawnpoint that can spawn only 2. It is also a melee book that need the full actions to make melee attacks (or activating auras). That means a large portion of the book is just wasted.
To test the Paladin I dropped some things that came in several copies, and put in a temple of asyra, a dawnbreaker's ring, a bear's strength and some other minor things. it is still a testing book and not really competitive, but it is just easier to test all these new things when I could actually use them, instead of just having them in my book without any chance to see the board.
Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: ClockWork on January 02, 2017, 12:30:41 PM
Siren is less straight forward then a Paladin and therefore "harder" to play. Also matches with base books don't really count
Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: Sailor Vulcan on January 02, 2017, 05:53:59 PM
The preconstructed books are meant to be flexible and let you choose different strategies. That means there are less spell points devoted to each strategy although there should still be overlap. No, they're not as good as a competitive book, but that does not mean that they are imbalanced for preconstructed play. To be honest I'm not sure whether the preconstructed books are imbalanced with each other or not. It's not like they've been tested that much. Nobody plays preconstructed games very often, it doesn't have a meta-game.


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Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: Beldin on January 12, 2017, 01:06:21 PM
The preconstructed books are meant to be flexible and let you choose different strategies. That means there are less spell points devoted to each strategy although there should still be overlap. No, they're not as good as a competitive book, but that does not mean that they are imbalanced for preconstructed play. To be honest I'm not sure whether the preconstructed books are imbalanced with each other or not. It's not like they've been tested that much. Nobody plays preconstructed games very often, it doesn't have a meta game.

Thus is an interesting thought. I have always seen them as a taster book to see how it plays and how you can do it better. None of them are balanced against each other as they all lack removal, apart from splashes in certain books and maybe more in later books. Also balancing every new starter book against every previous starter book would detract from time spent on design and play testing. Also would require a rebalancing of the previous books before this point.
Title: Re: Siren Still Hasn't Beaten Paladin
Post by: Coshade on January 12, 2017, 03:32:20 PM
Yeah that's how I've always viewed starter books as well. Just a splash of what you can do to start that creative engine for book making.