Arcane Wonders Forum

Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: Jeffman on January 27, 2018, 10:56:02 AM

Title: Chant of Rage movement
Post by: Jeffman on January 27, 2018, 10:56:02 AM
So when the target with the hate token is more then one zone away and the creature with CoR is unhindered, is it then one move + action, or double move?

Title: Re: Chant of Rage movement
Post by: Coshade on January 27, 2018, 10:59:51 AM
The creature with CoR would have to move as many as possible until they are in the zone with a Hate Token in it. So you could not Move 1 and guard or Move 1 back if you were hindered, you must move 2 toward a hate token.
Title: Re: Chant of Rage movement
Post by: Jeffman on January 27, 2018, 11:27:27 AM
K thanks :-)
Title: Re: Chant of Rage movement
Post by: Zuberi on January 27, 2018, 12:38:46 PM
Two things that will help you manipulate Chant of Rage though.

1. Hinderance and other movement impairing effects. If your creature CAN'T perform the mandatory requirement, then it is free to do whatever action it wishes.

2. Other Mandatory effects. If the creature has two competing mandatory action requirements, then its owner gets to choose which one to obey. So things like Blood Lust and Siren's Call can be useful here.
Title: Re: Chant of Rage movement
Post by: Jeffman on January 27, 2018, 12:50:20 PM
so what about a wall? if its put directly between the CoR and the target with a hate token i don't have to move? but if its in a diagonal i do have to move?
Title: Re: Chant of Rage movement
Post by: drmambo23 on January 27, 2018, 01:43:15 PM
If you are not hindered you run around the wall until you get to the target. You choose which direction if the distace is the same around it on both sides
Title: Re: Chant of Rage movement
Post by: Arkdeniz on January 27, 2018, 02:52:52 PM
If you are not hindered you run around the wall until you get to the target. You choose which direction if the distace is the same around it on both sides

But if the Wall has a passage attack the Rager has to run through it, right?
Title: Re: Chant of Rage movement
Post by: drmambo23 on January 27, 2018, 03:42:47 PM
Yes
Title: Re: Chant of Rage movement
Post by: Zuberi on January 27, 2018, 09:16:46 PM
A wall actually CAN prevent Chant of Rage from working. If you are one zone away from the hate token, and there is a wall (with the passage blocked trait) between you, then it is not possible for you to move towards the target. Moving to the side of the wall would mean you are now 2 zones from the target, meaning you've just moved away from it instead of towards it. I think we can all agree that moving AWAY does not satisfy the requirement of the spell to move TOWARDS the hate token.

Since you can't go through the wall, and every other direction would be moving away from the target, you therefore don't have to move at all and can choose whatever action you want. So yeah, you're correct Jeffman. If the wall's directly between you, you're free.

Regarding Drmambo23's statement, in addition to being wrong about necessarily having to move around the wall, it also seems to be under the impression that you must always choose the shortest path to the hate token. This is also wrong. If there are multiple paths towards the target, you can always choose which one to take regardless of which one is shorter. The only requirement is that each and every move you make must bring you closer towards the token. Because of this requirement though, if one path is longer than another, that kinda means that such a path eventually leads to a dead end that frees you from your requirement.

This is because the token is at a set distance away from you. Say, it's 4 zones from you. That means the required move must bring you within 3 zones from the target. Other moves don't satisfy its requirements. Then the move after that must bring you to within 2 zones. And then 1. And then the same zone. If any path was longer than this, the enchant could not force you to move along it. You can use this to your advantage by choosing such paths.

For example, if the hate token is 2 zones to the left of my enchanted creature and 1 zone above, then my first move could be either left or up. The zone above me though has a wall on it's left border. My opponent may have a problem with me choosing to move upwards then, as "going around the wall takes longer" but really what happens is that now I CAN'T move closer, because of the wall, and I'm freed of the obligation.

I think a lot of people don't realize all the ways there are to manipulate chant of rage and mitigate it's power, which is partly why it's so popular. That's why I felt compelled to mention some of the options here, even though it wasn't really part of the question.

Arkdeniz is correct though that if you can move through a wall, even if it has a passage attack, then you MUST move through it (assuming there aren't other paths towards the token).
Title: Re: Chant of Rage movement
Post by: drmambo23 on January 27, 2018, 09:24:38 PM
Good to know
Title: Re: Chant of Rage movement
Post by: SirJasonCrage on January 28, 2018, 05:41:48 AM
Uh, are we sure about having to move as many zones as possible towards the hate marker?

If you take the literal meaning as printed on the card, you're required to move towards it. Nothing less, nothing more.

If the token is two tiles away from me, I interpret the condition met after moving one zone. To me, that means I can move one zone and I'm free to block/attack/whatever, because I have definitely "moved towards" the hate token.

If I'm wrong, can anyone point me to the passage I am misinterpreting?
Title: Re: Chant of Rage movement
Post by: SharkBait on January 28, 2018, 08:17:10 AM
Uh, are we sure about having to move as many zones as possible towards the hate marker?

If you take the literal meaning as printed on the card, you're required to move towards it. Nothing less, nothing more.

If the token is two tiles away from me, I interpret the condition met after moving one zone. To me, that means I can move one zone and I'm free to block/attack/whatever, because I have definitely "moved towards" the hate token.

If I'm wrong, can anyone point me to the passage I am misinterpreting?

"During its activation, a creature must melee attack a creature with a Hate token"

This is the first thing you check for

"If it cannot, then it must move towards a creature with a Hate token, if possible"

This is what you do otherwise. No mention of only 1 zone (ala siren's call) and only 2 options of things you can do.

If you are hindered and stopped in a zone without a Hate target, you are not able to move 2, enabling you to attack/guard/whatever with your second action
Title: Re: Chant of Rage movement
Post by: exid on January 28, 2018, 10:42:23 AM
Uh, are we sure about having to move as many zones as possible towards the hate marker?

If you take the literal meaning as printed on the card, you're required to move towards it. Nothing less, nothing more.

If the token is two tiles away from me, I interpret the condition met after moving one zone. To me, that means I can move one zone and I'm free to block/attack/whatever, because I have definitely "moved towards" the hate token.

If I'm wrong, can anyone point me to the passage I am misinterpreting?

you activate: you can't attack but you can move toward the creature? -> you move.
after your move: you can't attack but you can move again toward the creature? -> you move.
that is mandatory action!
Title: Re: Chant of Rage movement
Post by: Zuberi on January 28, 2018, 12:39:04 PM
What you are missing is that mandatory actions are checked for each time you are able to do an action. So when you activate the creature, you check the mandatory actions before taking your first action. Then after your first action, you have to check them again before taking your second action. Mandatory actions always take precedent.
Title: Re: Chant of Rage movement
Post by: SirJasonCrage on January 28, 2018, 11:23:43 PM
Aaah, we're checking at every possible point. Thanks Zuberi. That was the detail I was missing.
Title: Re: Chant of Rage movement
Post by: Jeffman on January 29, 2018, 05:36:17 AM
When revealing the CoR and placing the hate token, do you have to take range and/or LoS into consideration in any way?
Title: Re: Chant of Rage movement
Post by: Coshade on January 29, 2018, 09:10:42 AM
When revealing the CoR and placing the hate token, do you have to take range and/or LoS into consideration in any way?

Good question! You do not!
Also keep in mind if there are two rage tokens in the arena you get to choose between them. So you could run back and forth as long as you don't end up in melee range.
Title: Re: Chant of Rage movement
Post by: Biblofilter on January 29, 2018, 09:16:16 AM
Couldīnt you argue that you had to try to move towards an opponent with a Hate token?

So that you would have to headbang a solid wall :)
Title: Re: Chant of Rage movement
Post by: Beldin on January 30, 2018, 11:33:45 PM
Couldīnt you argue that you had to try to move towards an opponent with a Hate token?

So that you would have to headbang a solid wall :)

No a wall is a barrier and thus if the "hated" target is behind it then you do not have to move through it unless it has passage attacks.

Small caveat question? Would it have to move if it had climbing?
Title: Re: Chant of Rage movement
Post by: exid on January 31, 2018, 12:52:41 AM
Small caveat question? Would it have to move if it had climbing?

you can, you do.