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Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: werner on April 06, 2018, 02:28:46 PM

Title: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?
Post by: werner on April 06, 2018, 02:28:46 PM
Mage with 'FD-Falcon Precision' declares melee on my ForceMaster. I declare and pay for 'Symbiotic Orb Defense,' is it too late to reveal 'Falcon Precision?' Or does it fizzle my Orb_Defense (wasting 3 mana / or / 1 Dissipate).
Title: Re: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?
Post by: farkas1 on April 06, 2018, 03:38:18 PM
You can reveal enchantments at each phase of the attack phase.  So you should be able to reveal falcon precision and use the unavoidable attack. Even once you pay for the defense on the orb before defense did is rolled an enchantment can be revealed.  So I think you lose the mana and the FP creaature gets to strike. 
Title: Re: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?
Post by: werner on April 06, 2018, 03:42:32 PM
That's the way we ruled it... And as I chose 3-mana I started to think about how rough it would be to lose the Defense AND harm a ever-fading Force Creature. Either way it's ruled; more Seeking Dispels are going in my FM deck!!! Thanks for the reply.
Title: Re: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?
Post by: Sailor Vulcan on April 06, 2018, 03:46:53 PM
I'm not so sure about that. The cost for orb's defense should be paid either before or during the avoid attack step. If it's during the avoid attack step then it is too late because that is when the attack is avoided. If it's before the avoid attack step then you would be able to reveal falcon precision after the cost of the defense has already been paid. I suspect that the cost is paid *during* the step, not before. Though I could be wrong.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?
Post by: werner on April 06, 2018, 03:59:27 PM
Thanks for weighing in, Sailor Vulcan. Like in most Timing/Phase debates... I just want to make sure I understand it correctly (and then still cramming more Seeking Dispel deckwise).

Title: Re: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?
Post by: Arkdeniz on April 06, 2018, 05:58:59 PM
I see two possibilities here:

The Simple Argument:

The key line on the Symbiotic Orb is "This counts as a Defense". So, despite the wording of 'once per round when an object in your zone is melee attacked...' the card  should activate (and be paid for) at the appropriate time in the attack sequence for Defenses, which is at the start of step four: Avoid Attack.

Now, during attacks, Enchantments can only be revealed at the end of any step, not during one.

So the simple reading is that if the player with the Falcon Precision wants to use it against someone who might be defended by a Symbiotic Orb, the FP needs to be revealed no later than the end of the Roll to Miss step, because the Orb would be activated during the Avoid Attack step, before the FP has another opportunity to reveal. You thus could not drain 3 mana by revealing the FP after the Orb is used. 

This has certainly been the way that my group has used the card so far.


The Counter Argument:

The key line is "when an object in your zone is melee attacked..." It does not say "during an attack." So the 3 mana needs to be paid at that time the attack begins, at Step One: Declare Attack, and is paid to stake in advance a claim that a Defense will be used at Step Four: Avoid Attack.

If this reading is right, then the Falcon Precision could definitely be used as a de facto 3 mana theft, and the forcemaster holding the Orb needs to think a bit more about whether she wants to use the Orb. ("Oh, the attacker has a Daze condition, so the attack might not get through anyway... Do I risk it?")

I can certainly see the appeal in this argument, since it does balance out the very powerful automatic Defense provided by such a cheap piece of equipment.


Does anyone more knowledgeable of the card's intent have anything to say?
Title: Re: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?
Post by: Puddnhead on April 06, 2018, 10:07:28 PM
Enchantments can never affect something retroactively. Therefore the latest you could reveal falcon precision is indeed the roll to miss step which is immediately before the avoid attack step. There are no steps to activating abilities.
Title: Re: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?
Post by: Arkdeniz on April 06, 2018, 11:32:24 PM
There are no steps to activating abilities.

So when can/must you activate the Symbiotic Orb's power and pay for it?
Title: Re: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?
Post by: Zuberi on April 07, 2018, 12:12:40 AM
There's a few things here, and everyone is kind of hitting on them in bits and pieces.

So, first regarding the possibilities listed by Arkdeniz: The text on the card "when a friendly object in your zone is melee attacked" tells you when the ability occurs. This would override any general rules. So the second possibility is correct.

That said, Puddnhead is also correct in that you can't affect things retroactively.

So, the way it would work, is at the end of the Declare Attack Step the defender could use their orb. Since there are no steps involved in using the orb, there is no chance to respond. The attack is then avoided, and skips to the Additional Strikes step. You could reveal the Falcon Precision before performing the Additional Strikes step, but the attack has ALREADY been avoided, and you can't change that.

The more important thing to this timing, in my opinion, is that the decision to use the orb, and pay the cost for it, has to be made before using most other defenses and even before rolling to miss from things like Daze. The only reason it really matters that it counts as a Defense is with regards to other Academy cards like Dodge which also happen at the end of the Declare Attack step.

Edit: to try and avoid confusion.
Title: Re: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?
Post by: exid on April 07, 2018, 12:16:30 AM
SO is an academy card... it does not use all the arena steps, so it must be read litterally: "when [...] is attacked" is during the declare attack step (and not during the avoid attack step as it would be with an arena card).

in this case: the attacker declares the attack, you avoid the attack, at the end of the declare attack step the attacker could reveal FP, but it's too late!
Title: Re: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?
Post by: Arkdeniz on April 07, 2018, 03:29:05 AM
The only reason it really matters that it counts as a Defense is with regards to other Academy cards like Dodge which also happen at the end of the Declare Attack step.

I am uncomfortable with the idea that Defenses could fire before the Avoid Attack step.

Might it be more accurate to say that when these cards are used, Attack Steps Two and Three are not actually ignored but are still formally run through even though they have no effect on anything, then the Orb/Dodge Defence kicks in at Step Four (when all other Defences do), and finally you once again formally move through Steps Five and Six until you get to Step Seven: Additional Attacks?

In almost all cases the practical effect of doing this would be the same as having the Defenses kick in at the end of Step One, (since Steps Two and Three are almost certainly just empty shells).
But just in case other card interactions make it messy, it might be best to treat the whole attack process formally as per the Arena rule for Defenses.

These cards come from Academy, and the Academy rules support this approach, I think. Academy states clearly that Defenses (including those that are inherent powers of cards, such as the Jade Gremlin's) still occur in Step Two: Defense Step, and not in Step One: Declare Attack. Thus Defenses do not fire in Step One in either ruleset.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?
Post by: exid on April 07, 2018, 03:43:05 AM
Crotte de bique!!! Zuberi was faster thant I !!!

the academy cards are written for academy... they can be played in the arena but aren't perfectly designed for it.
Title: Re: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?
Post by: Arkdeniz on April 07, 2018, 07:23:25 AM
the academy cards are written for academy... they can be played in the arena but aren't perfectly designed for it.

There is an imperfect cross over between the games, yes.

But in this case where both Academy and Arena have Defenses take effect in later Steps I think there is a case to be made that the Symbiotic orb (and Dodge) - which are both explicitly counted as "Defenses" - do not take effect in the Declare Attack step in either game, because Defenses are used in the Avoid Attack (Arena) or Defense (Academy) Step.

 
Title: Re: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?
Post by: exid on April 07, 2018, 07:56:14 AM
there are other situations where academy cards have to be adapted, i like to have only one rule, "as written", better than a rule for each situation (and i already plaid the academy's defenses like this for a long time... it would be troubling to change know  ;D ).

the enchantments (as in the situation here) are no problem: FP should be revealed before the defense and could be revealed befor the declaration.
it's different when you have a role to miss or a cost. I don't know if academy has such mechanisms.
Title: Re: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?
Post by: Zuberi on April 07, 2018, 02:36:43 PM
@Arkdeniz: I am sorry that this makes you uncomfortable, but your interpretation is indeed wrong. It's even wrong for Academy, as far as I can see. I am less well versed on Academy rules, but as far as I can tell there is no rule like you imagine that limits defenses to only happening during the Avoid Attack step. Even if there was, the text on the card always overrides general rules and both Jade Gremlin and Symbiotic Orb say that they happen "when attacked". Which means at the end of the Declare Attack step in both Academy and in Arena. If it was meant to happen during the Avoid Attack step, then it would say that.
Title: Re: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?
Post by: Arkdeniz on April 07, 2018, 05:26:33 PM
@Arkdeniz: I am sorry that this makes you uncomfortable, but your interpretation is indeed wrong. It's even wrong for Academy, as far as I can see. I am less well versed on Academy rules, but as far as I can tell there is no rule like you imagine that limits defenses to only happening during the Avoid Attack step. Even if there was, the text on the card always overrides general rules and both Jade Gremlin and Symbiotic Orb say that they happen "when attacked". Which means at the end of the Declare Attack step in both Academy and in Arena. If it was meant to happen during the Avoid Attack step, then it would say that.

It hasn't been my interpretation in practice - my group has played it differently again (see above). But topics like this always make me get the rulebooks out for a closer read and get me thinking, which is always fun.

But on reflection I do not agree with your last sentence. ("If it was meant to happen during the Avoid Attack step, then it would say that.")

I would agree with you if we were talking about Arena cards. Block, for instance, clearly states that its Defense power takes effect in the Avoid Attack step. I cannot find any Arena card that does not state the specific steps in which its effect is used.

(BTW: If you can find any Arena cards that have a flat statement of "when this creature is attacked" that does not go on to state a specific step for its effect then you can reveal that card now and not bother reading further - your point will be made.)

Only Academy cards have the phraseology "when attacked" without adding any specificity. This makes me suspect something is up with that ruleset. 

Academy cards are intended to crossover between the two rulesets. And because Academy has a "Defense Step" as its equivalent to "Avoid Attack" (Oh I wish they had kept the same terminology!), the card could not give more details lest they confuse the player base. Say "in the Defense Step" and confuse Arena players; say "in the Avoid Attack step" and confuse Academy players. Say "in the Defense Step or in the Avoid Attack Step" and confuse both groups! So the cards say nothing at all, which opens it up for interpretation.***

And I don't think your interpretation is necessarily right.

If you look at it a little closer, you find that "When attacked" does not always and cleanly mean "the end of the Declare Attack step" as you say it does. The aforementioned Block, for instance, reads "when this creature is attacked, you must reveal Block during the Avoid Attack step." If you are right about the meaning of "when attacked", then Block's text will translate as "at the end of the Declare Attack step, you must reveal Block during the Avoid Attack step", which is clearly unworkable gibberish.

So for Block, and other Arena cards like it, the "when this creature is attacked" phrase must refer to the continuum that is the whole attack sequence, (and is amended by subsequent detail).

I can't possibly conceive that the intention is different for Academy and its cards, but Academy repeatedly fails to include the necessary detail.

Finally, I go back to the word Defense. Unless you can point me at chapter and verse that says Defenses can occur at different times in the attack sequence, all I see in the rulebooks, the codex and supplements is that Defenses (in both rulesets) are exclusively discussed in terms of their use in the Avoid Attack/Defense steps of the two games.

Which is why I have to conclude that when Academy cards refer to Defense, then the effect takes place in the Avoid Attack step. 


*** Academy has the same problem for cards whose effect cancels attacks (rather than avoids them through Defenses). Compare Academy's Repulsion Field ("When this creature is attacked you must reveal Repulsion Field. Cancel the attack.") with Arena's Helm of Fear ("whenever this mage is attacked, at the beginning of the Declare Attack step... That attack is cancelled"). 


Whether I convince you or not on all of this, I think Academy's designers missed a trick when they decided to use different terminology than Arena's for steps in the attack sequence, and a second trick when they did not include on the cards specifics on the step for each effect, as Arena cards have.  I would urge greater care in future.   
Title: Re: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?
Post by: Zuberi on April 07, 2018, 10:12:37 PM
You are correct that the card is specifically worded the way it is to help it be compatible with both versions of the game. That doesn't change my point or the results of its writing.

I could point you back to the rulebook, but I feel like that is wasted effort at this time. What really matters is the Magic Rule. Card text overrides general rules. So we could argue about how the rules don't limit Defenses to a specific step, but it doesn't matter because even if they did (they don't) the text on the card would still break that rule.

When attacked means when you are the target of an attack. It's very clear and clean. With Block, it reads that when you are the target of an attack, you reveal Block during the Avoid attack step (so you don't reveal it when you're the attacker, for example). Dodge reads that when you are the target of an attack, you must reveal Dodge. Immediately. So, when do you become the target of an attack? At the end of the Declare Attack step. If you have to do something immediately upon being attacked, then that's the time it happens.
Title: Re: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?
Post by: Kharhaz on April 07, 2018, 10:31:01 PM
@Zuberi, 100% right on this one. Page 2 is the bit about the magic rule for those interested.

However, fun Devil's advocate time

page 23,
During step 4 :

"Important: The defender must decide whether to use a Defense (see ďDefensesĒ page 24) before the attacker proceeds to the next step and rolls the dice. "

That line requires me the attacker to ask if the defender plans to use a defense. If you refuse then one could make the argument that you have forfeited the opportunity to use a defense for the sequence???

Also the "counts as a defense" bit is very important regarding the "can only use one defense per attack" rule. So you can't roll a defense, not succeed and then sym orb as insurance.
Title: Re: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?
Post by: DaveW on April 08, 2018, 12:01:39 AM
It sounds like the way to do it, then, is to reveal the Falcon Precision prior to activating the creature that will be making the attack.
Title: Re: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?
Post by: Arkdeniz on April 08, 2018, 01:58:38 AM
I'll accept the will of the council on this one.

But...

Does anyone closer to AW than I am have any thoughts on why during the design of Academy it was decided that there would be no guidance on any of the cards about which steps the cards' effects would happen, when this is/was standard practice on Arena cards. 
Title: Re: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?
Post by: exid on April 08, 2018, 02:22:27 AM
Also the "counts as a defense" bit is very important regarding the "can only use one defense per attack" rule. So you can't roll a defense, not succeed and then sym orb as insurance.
i'm affraid i missed that... i use academy's defences after the declaration step and arena's defences during the avoid step, but i must remember i can't use both on the same attack...


Does anyone closer to AW than I am have any thoughts on why during the design of Academy it was decided that there would be no guidance on any of the cards about which steps the cards' effects would happen, when this is/was standard practice on Arena cards. 
as often, official rulling would be helpfull!
i think it's very difficult to build cards for a game. building cards for 2 games, thinking of all the cross effects, is perhaps too much.
Title: Re: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?
Post by: Zuberi on April 08, 2018, 10:31:14 AM
For every Academy set other than the core set, Iíve helped write the cards. You can find my name listed as a ďdesign consultantĒ (Ivan Kidd). So Iím about as official as you can get on that question, even though Iím not actually an employee and donít speak for the company (disclaimers blah blah blah).

Basically, you already hit on the answer earlier when you corrected something I had said in a rush. These cards are designed to be compatible with two different games. Therefore we canít mention or make use of anything thatís only in one of the games. We will and do mention when things happen, including mentioning the steps they happen in, but we also have to work within design constraints such as this.

For example, several Academy cards have effects during the counterstrike step. Thatís a specific step we can mention as it is in both games. Many of those though arenít something we would choose to put in the counterstrike step if they were Arena only, being more akin to a damage barrier, but Academy doesnít have damage barriers so we couldnít use that.

Since Academy doesnít have an Avoid Attack step and Arena doesnít have a Defense step, youíll never see these mentioned on an Academy card. That doesnít change the fact that the cards do tell you when to use them. The reason we have you use them at the end of the Declare Attack step may be due to compatibility, but that is still what we mean when we say ďwhen attacked do thisĒ.
Title: Re: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?
Post by: Arkdeniz on April 08, 2018, 03:57:15 PM
Righto. Thanks Zuberi. I was not aware that your involvement had been as close as that.

Any insight on why Academy didnít run with the same terminology as Arena for the Avoid Attack/Defense step? I seen o practical difference between them.
Title: Re: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?
Post by: Zuberi on April 09, 2018, 04:12:54 AM
Yeah, I don't throw that out too often. Saying "this is how it works, because I helped write it" feels cheap and dishonest, just shutting down the conversation. I feel it should be explainable purely within the context of the rules you have available to you. And also, since I'm not an Arcane Wonders employee, I don't typically feel I have the right to claim to be some kind of authority.

Unfortunately I don't have any insight into that decision. Both because I wasn't a part of the decision, and also because I'm under an NDA which I probably toe the line of more often than I should already. That's the real problem with my status as a non-employee. Even if I know the official answer, I don't have the authority to disclaim it. I feel like my previous comment was safe because everyone knows the cards are designed with both games in mind. But if it's not already public knowledge (at least arguably so), I'm not going to be able to answer your questions.
Title: Re: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?
Post by: exid on April 09, 2018, 06:33:15 AM
Yeah, I don't throw that out too often. Saying "this is how it works, because I helped write it" feels cheap and dishonest, just shutting down the conversation. I feel it should be explainable purely within the context of the rules you have available to you. And also, since I'm not an Arcane Wonders employee, I don't typically feel I have the right to claim to be some kind of authority.
it's important to discuss and question rules interpretation, but when we have turned it inside down and upside out, i think it's good to have clear shut.
thank you to have say it clearly! (nothing cheap or dishonest here)

Unfortunately I don't have any insight into that decision. Both because I wasn't a part of the decision, and also because I'm under an NDA which I probably toe the line of more often than I should already. That's the real problem with my status as a non-employee. Even if I know the official answer, I don't have the authority to disclaim it. I feel like my previous comment was safe because everyone knows the cards are designed with both games in mind. But if it's not already public knowledge (at least arguably so), I'm not going to be able to answer your questions.
I think we miss somebody with a clear status, who wouldn't answer to quickly (let us discuss an question) but would give us insight sometimes (and edit them in a new rules supplement!)
Title: Re: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?
Post by: werner on April 09, 2018, 08:16:12 AM

Thanks (all)!

Summary (please correct me if mistaken):

1. Falcon Precision must be revealed before the Avoid Attack Phase
2. If defender announces they are using the Symbiotic Orb, it's too late to reveal enchantments

Title: Re: Pocket-Reveal 'Falcon Precision' to negate 'Symbiotic Orb' after orb-cost paid?
Post by: exid on April 10, 2018, 12:38:53 AM
if you want to counter an orb, you must reveal FP befor declaring the attack.
(it's not clear for me if the orb happens during the declaration or just after it... if it's after, you could reveal SP between the declaration step and the orb if you have the initiative... anyway! better to reveal before declaration step!)