Arcane Wonders Forum

Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => General Questions => Topic started by: Jon.Ambriz on October 13, 2012, 10:56:04 PM

Title: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Jon.Ambriz on October 13, 2012, 10:56:04 PM
In the rule book, the rules on teleport say that a creature that has teleport can move through walls to another zone. However, if a wall is blocking LOS how can such a teleport happen?

I ask this because a couple nights ago there was a starter match that I sat in on and a Wizard summoned a Blue Gremlin and then on the next round used a mana point to give the Gremlin Fast, which on the card says this trait counts as a teleport. But, Warlock has casted a Wall of Fire to block off the Gremlin's route the previous turn. Does the Gremlin bypass the wall even though the Wall blocks off LOS?
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Hedge on October 14, 2012, 02:07:35 PM
Because Teleport the Spell requires LoS. A Creature just moving to the next Zone does not require LoS. Nowhere in the Rule book does it state that you need LoS for your Creature's move action.


Hedge
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Shad0w on October 15, 2012, 03:11:13 PM
This is from another thread that can be found here. (http://magewars.com/jsite/forum/general-questions/1986-teleport-and-los)
Quote from: "Shad0w" post=1987

Quote from: "fas723" post=1986
Can I teleport something through a wall?
Does it depent on which side I start the teleportation?

Shad0w Wrote:

Teleporting
Teleporting is an effect that moves a creature directly from one zone to another. The teleported creature
does not move through any zones in between, and bypasses all walls, creatures, and objects along its
route.
Everything that is attached to the teleported creature, except conjurations, including all conditions, damage, enchantments, equipment, and mana, always moves with the teleported creature to its new zone. Any attached conjurations do not move with the creature when it teleports, and are destroyed. In this way, a creature can effectively escape from conjurations like Tanglevine. A creature may teleport into the same zone it started in (effectively teleporting zero zones) to escape from attached conjurations. Unlike a Push, teleporting can affect Unmovable creatures.

So it would be correct to say you can teleport a creature past a wall but not through it.  Also in order to do this you would need LOS to both the Creatures Zone and the intended zone if using the Teleport spell.

I hope that helps



With the current wording if a creature has a teleport ability it could even go past objects that block LoS unless otherwise stated in that ability. Because the teleport keyword does not require LoS, where as the teleport spell does.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: NovemberAdam on December 12, 2012, 03:51:00 PM
I'm curious as to how the gremlin moves for this teleport.  Can it only teleport 1 square away, or can it teleport further away?  Is it in essence moving like other creatures, as in one zone at a time, but is just blinking from one zone to the other?
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Shad0w on December 13, 2012, 06:48:25 AM
One zone at a time via its Fast Teleport ability.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: yo_predator on January 18, 2013, 06:23:53 PM
Hello to everybody in the forum and congratulations to the creators of this marvelous game. Wish you to make it even greater!
I want to add to the question. I hope it wasn't answered elsewhere. Does Blue Gremlin with activated ability becomes hindered by enemies?
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Drealin on January 19, 2013, 12:39:59 AM
Quote from: "yo_predator" post=6491

I want to add to the question. I hope it wasn't answered elsewhere. Does Blue Gremlin with activated ability becomes hindered by enemies?


I would say yes, simply because the Gremlin's ability doesn't say otherwise.  A creature is hindered if it enters a zone with enemy creatures.  The only possible loophole would on page 14 in the Teleporting sidebar where it says:
"The teleported creature does not move through any zones in between, and bypasses all walls, creatures, and objects along its route."

However, I would not say this is a strong enough argument to stop the Gremlin from being hindered.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: yo_predator on January 19, 2013, 04:06:43 AM
Quote from: "Drealin" post=6496

The only possible loophole would on page 14 in the Teleporting sidebar where it says:
"The teleported creature does not move through any zones in between, and bypasses all walls, creatures, and objects along its route."


This rule is the reason for my question.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: klempad on January 21, 2013, 07:50:00 AM
This came up in my game the other day. I can see both sides of the question, and although we ended up playing that the gremlin was hindered, my sense of
Quote
spells work the way you think they should, and affect the battle in a way that makes sense.

tells me me it wouldn't.
Can we get an official ruling on this?
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Hedge on January 21, 2013, 02:33:07 PM
Quote from: "klempad" post=6561
This came up in my game the other day. I can see both sides of the question, and although we ended up playing that the gremlin was hindered, my sense of
Quote
spells work the way you think they should, and affect the battle in a way that makes sense.

tells me me it wouldn't.
Can we get an official ruling on this?



I agree that he shouldn't be hindered.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Drealin on January 21, 2013, 06:42:46 PM
I understand why it would make sense for him not to be hindered, but for gameplay that could make the Gremlin too powerful.  His attack isn't that bad, especially with piercing.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: HeatStryke on January 22, 2013, 02:40:22 AM
The question is more if teleport obeys hindering or not.

To be hindered you simply need to be in a zone with enemy creatures or entering a zone with enemy creatures. So purely by the rules the Gremlin would be hindered. This much is clear.

I would have to go with the simple caveat to the wording of teleport that it bypasses creatures, this would logicly include hindering. It basicly has to for teleporting to work.

That and it makes no sense that I can only teleport a zone away just because somethings trying to hit me. Seems like a good reason to go farther.

Baring offical rulings otherwise (I'll see if I can poke someone about it cause this a good question) I'd also agrue that while teleporting itself ignores and will not cause you to be hindered, if you were hindered at the start of the round you'd continue to be after the teleport.

Yeah that doesn't make a great deal of sense, but thats what the rules would lead me to believe.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: jacksmack on July 12, 2013, 07:48:04 AM
Discussion started in another thread:
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=12635.15

What is the Intention of Blue Gremlin's Special ability?


While ability activated can the gremlin:

1)
Move unhindered?

2)
Ignore walls?

3)
Escape restrained effects such as tanglevine and quicksand?

4)
Still perform its teleport when crippled?

5)
Move directly from zone A--> C and never touching Zone B in between?
If 1) is a "no". Then it could potentially skip a zone with enemy creature and allow for 2 zone movement.

6)
Avoid movement penalizing effects such as suppression orb and chains of agony?
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: DaveW on July 12, 2013, 08:13:48 PM
Discussion started in another thread:
http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=12635.15

What is the Intention of Blue Gremlin's Special ability?


While ability activated can the gremlin:

1)
Move unhindered?

2)
Ignore walls?

3)
Escape restrained effects such as tanglevine and quicksand?

4)
Still perform its teleport when crippled?

5)
Move directly from zone A--> C and never touching Zone B in between?
If 1) is a "no". Then it could potentially skip a zone with enemy creature and allow for 2 zone movement.

6)
Avoid movement penalizing effects such as suppression orb and chains of agony?

I don't know what the intent of the teleport ability is, but I think it's a pretty cool effect. I have four of these guys in my Wizard spellbook and love them. They are great for getting into a fortified enemy position, or bypassing walls that an opponent puts around your spawnpoint, among other things. In addition, they are relatively inexpensive to cast, and come with a defense and a reasonable attack considering the level of the creature.

To see if I can help with your questions:

1) The Blue Gremlin is not hindered when it moves using its special ability to teleport. Teleporting can move creatures even if they are "unmovable." He still would be attacked by Mangler Caltrops for example as he still is entering the zone, but the hindrance caused by them would be ignored while teleporting.

2) Teleporting creatures never are affected by walls (see the section on teleporting on p. 10). Note: the teleport spell (card) requires the caster to be in LOS of both the creature and the destination zone, but this is not the case for the Gremlin's special movement; he can move directly through a wall from one side to the other whether or not the wall blocks LOS.

3) Yes, since teleporting in general releases a creature from conjurations.

4) Crippled creatures are considered "restrained" and "restrained" creatures can teleport, so crippled creatures can teleport in general.

5) The Blue Gremlin still takes move actions to move between zones and gains the Fast trait, so he can not skip a zone to go from A to C, just as any other fast creature taking move actions to move two zones can not skip the zone in between when they move. It doesn't matter whether there is a creature in the "B" zone, as the Gremlin will continue to teleport out, ignoring the hindrance.

6) The Blue Gremlin's teleport ability still requires him to take move actions. Chains of Agony and such that specify that certain things happen when he moves still have their effect.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: ringkichard on July 13, 2013, 12:48:18 AM
I think this should be re-posted or moved to the rules forum, and I think answers are going to require authority or citations.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: The Dude on July 13, 2013, 07:01:42 AM
Teleporting in general does release a creature from a conjuration such as tanglevine, however, Blue Gremlin specifically states that when he teleports when he moves. This is still considered a move action, which the restrained trait specifically says you can not do.

As well, a crippled Gremlin may not take a move action. All his ability means is that if he does take a move action that turn, each move counts as him teleporting into that zone. It is still a move action, which, if the creature is restrained, it cannot do.

As well, this is what hinder states:

Hinder
If a creature begins its Action Phase in a zone with any
enemy creatures, or enters a zone occupied by an enemy
creature, it is hindered. A hindered creature may only move
1 zone during its Action Phase (even if it has the Fast trait).
Incapacitated, Restrained, or Pest creatures cannot hinder
movement.

This means that the Gremlin is still hindered by the enemy, as it's "teleport" ability is specifically a move action.

I hope this helps you!
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: The Dude on July 13, 2013, 07:02:49 AM
For reference:

When this creature is activated, you may pay 1 mana. If you do, Gremlin gains the Fast trait until the end of round, and each move action he takes this round is a Teleport to the next zone.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Tacullu64 on July 13, 2013, 09:11:35 AM
Resurrecting this thread since it is a topic of interest again.

My personal belief is the gremlin isn't hindered, but both sides have articulated their cases persuasively.

Can we get a clear unambiguous official response to the question.

Can the Blue Gremlin be hindered if he pays 1 mana for his special ability when he activates?

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: ringkichard on July 13, 2013, 10:53:27 AM
For reference, here are links to the recent Blue Gremlin card discussion (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=12743) and the Spellbook discussion (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=12635.15) that contains more arguments.

To me, a lot seems to hinge on the original comments by Arcanus about the FAQ (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=8412.msg8702).

My opinion is that the Rules as Intended in the FAQ are unclear. The Rules as Written on March 5th mean that the Gremlin is hindered and may not take move actions. The Rules as Written on March 2nd mean that the Gremlin may teleport even though hindered.

As a matter of design, I support Gremlin being allowed to teleport even though hindered, because I think cards should do what most players will assume they can. I think a FAQ entry to clarify this would be helpful.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Tacullu64 on July 13, 2013, 11:59:03 AM
My sense is that most people understand why blue gremlins would be allowed to teleport unhindered, but the rules are ambiguous, and most importantly people just want to play it correctly.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: DaveW on July 13, 2013, 07:09:03 PM
OK, so will someone with real rules authority adjudicate?

The issue seems to be whether the teleport is legal since the tanglevine prevents (normal, at least) movement, and the because teleport is described as a "move action."

My belief is that it should be able to teleport since:
1) The teleport "condition" is gained after the tanglevine's application,
2) The vine doesn't have any attribute that disallows the expenditure of the mana, and
3) There seems to be precedent in flying on the Vampiress... she activates flying and no longer is hindered (even though at the very moment that she activates the flying condition, she actually is on the ground and "should be" hindered).

Still, everyone would like an official answer, I guess.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: The Dude on July 13, 2013, 11:20:12 PM
I'm pretty sure I do have a real rules authority mate. As an an ambassador, judge, and writer of Mage Wars, it is kind of my job to know the rules. c:

The answer I have provided is the correct one. Since the Gremlin is using a move action to teleport, it is still considered a move action. As such, any effect that would disallow the move action or limit it is still in effect. Again, I post, for reference, the ability of the card in question:

When this creature is activated, you may pay 1 mana. If you do, Gremlin gains the Fast trait until the end of round, and each move action he takes this round is a Teleport to the next zone.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Shad0w on July 14, 2013, 12:13:33 AM
I'm pretty sure I do have a real rules authority mate. As an an ambassador, judge, and writer of Mage Wars, it is kind of my job to know the rules. c:

The answer I have provided is the correct one. Since the Gremlin is using a move action to teleport, it is still considered a move action. As such, any effect that would disallow the move action or limit it is still in effect. Again, I post, for reference, the ability of the card in question:

When this creature is activated, you may pay 1 mana. If you do, Gremlin gains the Fast trait until the end of round, and each move action he takes this round is a Teleport to the next zone.


"Since the Gremlin is using a move action to teleport, it is still considered a move action."
Correct
As such, any effect that would disallow the move action or limit it is still in effect.
Correct
All his ability means is that if he does take a move action that turn, each move counts as him teleporting into that zone. It is still a move action, which, if the creature is restrained, it cannot do.
Correct
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Shad0w on July 14, 2013, 01:05:08 AM
I have rules that BGs teleport is used as a move action but it is as if telepot had been cast on it allowing to bypass hindering creatures. When Bryan and I talked way back about this he had no issue with that.



Do you want this in the FAQ?
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: baronzaltor on July 14, 2013, 03:26:12 AM
I have rules that BGs teleport is used as a move action but it is as if telepot had been cast on it allowing to bypass hindering creatures. When Bryan and I talked way back about this he had no issue with that.



Do you want this in the FAQ?

FAQ'ing the intended/finalized version would probably be a good idea.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Wiz-Pig on July 14, 2013, 08:59:12 AM
I'm not sure I understand how that would affect the situation:

Hindering Movement:

"Enemy creatures can prevent your creature from moving into a second zone. If your creature begins its Action Phase in a zone with any enemy creatures it is hindered and may only take one move action during its Action Phase (even if it has the Fast trait). If it moves into a zone occupied by an enemy creature, it is hindered, and must stop and cannot take any more move actions this Action Phase."

Teleporting:

"The teleported creature does not move through any zones in between, and bypasses all walls, creatures, and objects along its route."

Hindering from the FAQ:

"Movement by teleporting ignores the Hindering restriction. If a creature teleports before it takes any move actions, it can become un-hindered if it teleports into a zone without any enemy objects that can hinder it."


1. Since the Blue Goblin is teleporting only one zone at a time there are no 'zones in between' for him to avoid and the only thing that he would be bypassing is the walls which are literally in between zones.
2. It has already been stated that he is not teleporting before he takes any move actions, but in fact the teleporting is a move action for him.
3. The status of hindering occurs before any move actions are taken merely by his being in or entering a zone which contains creatures that can hinder him.

Conclusion: The Blue Goblin is affected by hinderance rules exactly as though he were taking normal move actions.

Am I missing some other source that references these rules?
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Tacullu64 on July 14, 2013, 09:30:59 AM
You seem to be missing the intent of the way blue gremlin was meant work in favor of ambiguous rules.

The single statement of "Movement by teleporting ignores the hindering restriction." indicates the intent of how special abilities such as BG's are suppose to work. Rules passages such as the ones you listed make BG's special ability confusing. It is easy to see how you came to your conclusion, you are not alone.

Most people just want to play correctly. It's not easy writing rules and sometimes multiple interpretation arise, which can lead to parsing the rules.

Fortunately it sounds like they are going to add this to the FAQ to avoid (understandable) confusion in the future.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Wiz-Pig on July 14, 2013, 10:27:21 AM
Yes, I see what you are saying and my only problem with that interpretation is the previous claim that a Blue Goblin cannot escape tanglevines and such because he has to be able to declare a move action before he can teleport. And since the hinderance rules would prevent him from declaring his second move action if his first were to cause him to move into a zone containing creatures that could hinder him. I don't see how both of these rulings can be true as currently stated.

I agree with the intent, I just want to make sure it is stated unambiguously.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: ringkichard on July 14, 2013, 11:08:39 AM
Here's a similar one:
Does the promo Stumble work on Blue Gremlin?
I think it should, because it ties into the Tanglevine ruling, but the language of Stumble is very similar to the language of Hindered.

Quote from: Stumble
Enchantment. Non-Flying Creature.
You may reveal Stumble when this creature is activated. It stumbles and may not take a move action during its action phase. Then, destroy Stumble. Has no effect on creatures with the Unmovable trait.

Quote from: Hindered
If your creature begins its Action Phase in a zone with any enemy creatures it is hindered and may only take one move action during its Action Phase (even if it has the Fast trait). If it moves into a zone occupied by an enemy creature, it is hindered, and must stop and cannot take any more move actions this Action Phase.

Again, from a design perspective, Blue Gremlin is in a weird place because knowing more about the rules changes what you think it can do, and then knowing about the FAQ changes it back again, maybe. This isn't ideal.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Tacullu64 on July 14, 2013, 11:59:33 AM
I would say that stumble works on Blue Gremlin. To me the gremlin's teleport ability wouldn't override Stumble like it does hindering.

In the first instance you have a rules conflict between the rules governing teleport and the rules governing hindering. The question was which one would take precedence. I don't see that conflict here.

This is of course just my interpretation.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: nitrodavid on July 14, 2013, 06:11:15 PM
if only they could rewrite the card to give it elusive while moving
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: sIKE on July 14, 2013, 06:43:34 PM
I'm pretty sure I do have a real rules authority mate. As an an ambassador, judge, and writer of Mage Wars, it is kind of my job to know the rules. c:

The answer I have provided is the correct one. Since the Gremlin is using a move action to teleport, it is still considered a move action. As such, any effect that would disallow the move action or limit it is still in effect. Again, I post, for reference, the ability of the card in question:

When this creature is activated, you may pay 1 mana. If you do, Gremlin gains the Fast trait until the end of round, and each move action he takes this round is a Teleport to the next zone.


"Since the Gremlin is using a move action to teleport, it is still considered a move action."
Correct
As such, any effect that would disallow the move action or limit it is still in effect.
Correct
All his ability means is that if he does take a move action that turn, each move counts as him teleporting into that zone. It is still a move action, which, if the creature is restrained, it cannot do.
Correct

This makes no sense! The teleport action should have precedence over the move part of the action. The move piece should be there limit have far he can go (two zones). Zap out, Zap In, Zap Out, Zap In. Nothing to grab and hold on to, too be hindered by just puffs of smoke. 
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Tacullu64 on July 14, 2013, 08:06:07 PM
if only they could rewrite the card to give it elusive while moving

That would clear things up.

I think once they get a clarification in the FAQ it will be almost as good. At that point if anybody has a question we can just whip out the FAQ and say BG isn't hindered because it says so here.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: DaveW on July 14, 2013, 09:07:11 PM
I'm pretty sure I do have a real rules authority mate. As an an ambassador, judge, and writer of Mage Wars, it is kind of my job to know the rules.

I had no idea that you had these qualifications. There was some text on the side of your message that had some key words, but nothing indicated (to me) that you were either an author or a tournament judge.

I am just a lowly learner of the game, and I apologize.

I'll now go remove the BG's from my spellbooks... thanks.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Shad0w on July 14, 2013, 10:18:35 PM
I'm pretty sure I do have a real rules authority mate. As an an ambassador, judge, and writer of Mage Wars, it is kind of my job to know the rules. c:

The answer I have provided is the correct one. Since the Gremlin is using a move action to teleport, it is still considered a move action. As such, any effect that would disallow the move action or limit it is still in effect. Again, I post, for reference, the ability of the card in question:

When this creature is activated, you may pay 1 mana. If you do, Gremlin gains the Fast trait until the end of round, and each move action he takes this round is a Teleport to the next zone.


"Since the Gremlin is using a move action to teleport, it is still considered a move action."
Correct
As such, any effect that would disallow the move action or limit it is still in effect.
Correct
All his ability means is that if he does take a move action that turn, each move counts as him teleporting into that zone. It is still a move action, which, if the creature is restrained, it cannot do.
Correct

This makes no sense! The teleport action should have precedence over the move part of the action. The move piece should be there limit have far he can go (two zones). Zap out, Zap In, Zap Out, Zap In. Nothing to grab and hold on to, too be hindered by just puffs of smoke.


It has been ruled both ways Sike for example BG can break a tangle vine but can't escape cripple. Some of these things we have gone back and forth on. I can agree with you but I do not have final say. I have a bunch of stuff that needs to be cleaned up within the next few months.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Bjorne on July 15, 2013, 04:09:50 AM
And the current ruling is that they are basically elusive?
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Shad0w on July 15, 2013, 11:47:38 AM
And the current ruling is that they are basically elusive?

Kind of. ::)
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: The Dude on July 15, 2013, 12:15:54 PM
You would need to rewrite restrained, elusive, hindered, and  Blue Gremlin in order to make that happen. As it stands, because the card specifically states that the blue Gremlin makes a move action, he can still be hindered and restrained. For reference:

Hinder
If a creature begins its Action Phase in a zone with any
enemy creatures, or enters a zone occupied by an enemy
creature, it is hindered. A hindered creature may only move
1 zone during its Action Phase (even if it has the Fast trait).
Incapacitated, Restrained, or Pest creatures cannot hinder
movement.


Move Action
During its Action Phase a creature can take a move action,
which allows it to move one zone to an adjacent zone.
Afterwards it may take a quick action. (See “Movement” on
page 13.)


Restrained
If a creature is Restrained, it cannot take any move actions.


It goes on to say it can be teleported, but in order for the creature to be teleported by itself is for it to take a move action, which, according to the rules, it cannot do.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Shad0w on July 15, 2013, 12:19:53 PM
I know and with all the testing and planning going on the rules team has not had time to do things like this. It comes down to intent of card vs rules.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: sIKE on July 15, 2013, 12:48:52 PM
The Dude is only highlighting the Move Part of equation, there is the teleport part of the equation. What I think needs to happen is to establish order of precedence in situations like these. No rule changes are needed, just a ruling on which trait overrides the other.

Poison conditions that affect movement(Cripple) should apply here. How I see this working:

Even with the additional mana mojo from the mage, the BGs innate ability would be "hampered" by the poison condition and therefore unable to Teleport. 
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: The Dude on July 15, 2013, 12:58:01 PM
That's because the move part of the rules is what makes him teleport. It doesn't say he teleports instead of moves. It states that he teleports as a move action.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: sIKE on July 15, 2013, 01:06:07 PM
But at that point the "move" is no longer done with the legs, it is done with magic. He disappears from one zone and magically appears in another. No chance for a vine to grab him or opposing creature to jump in the way and slow down progress. Just poof! Where in the heck did he go? Poof! Crap how in the hay did he get way over there?

As was said previously Teleporting creatures are not hindered.

Doesn't seem that hard to grasp to me....but I am a flavor guy vs. a pedantic rule reading type....no malalignment of anyone's character is intended here.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Tacullu64 on July 15, 2013, 01:07:23 PM
Just my two cents worth.

I'm not sure why hindering would need to be rewritten.

TELEPORTING
Teleporting is an effect that moves a creature directly from one zone to another. The teleported creature does not move through any zones in between, and bypasses all walls, creatures, and objects along its route.

Bypassing creatures is fairly strong wording. How can one creature hinder another when it is bypassed?

Movement by teleporting ignores the Hindering restriction. If a creature teleports before it takes any move actions, it can become un-hindered if it teleports into a zone without any enemy objects that can hinder it.

Once again, How can one creature hinder another when it is bypassed?

I would think that since there is conflict between the rules governing teleport and the rules governing hindering it could be cleared up by officially stating which set of rules takes precedence.

Ultimately, however it is handled, the important thing is that it is clear how we should be playing the Blue Gremlin. Complexity of the different arguments aside its a simple yes or no question. Is the BG hindered by opposing creatures when he uses his special ability. Yes or no? This has been a friendly rules discussion to date. I don't get the sense that people are emotionally vested in one side or the other, only that they want to know how to use the BG correctly so they can continue playing MW without worrying of they are playing wrong.

Edit: looks like the dude and sike snuck in a few posts while I was formulating my thoughts. Should have hit yes to the "Do you want to read?" query.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: The Dude on July 15, 2013, 03:10:32 PM
But it is still a move action, be it done with legs or magic. I understand you are coming from a theme standpoint, but the rules have to make sense. If the card had said "Blue Gremlin teleports up to two zones instead of moving", then I would agree with you. But, as it stands, to teleport, the Blue Gremlin must effectively use a move action, which he cannot do if he is restrained, and he can only use 1 move action unless he was elusive out of a hindering zone.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: sIKE on July 15, 2013, 03:28:24 PM
I know what you are saying, we have a classic The Unopposable Force vs. The Immovable Object situation :)

I (trying to reword my thoughts here) think the intent of the "each move action he takes this round is a Teleport to the next zone" is to limit how far the BG can move in a given round with each move action. Since he has fast each "move action" (once the mana was paid) would be via teleportation and the teleport rules would then apply to the movement vis-ŕ-vis hindering. He could pop though two zone and make a quick attack in the second zone.

The teleport trait would mean that the elusive trait is not needed since teleporting creatures are not hindered.

Edit: Fleshed out my thoughts....
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Shad0w on July 15, 2013, 03:37:59 PM
I hope to have something within the next few weeks. All depends on how work goes I am on nights till Gencon week
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: ringkichard on July 15, 2013, 04:13:27 PM
Rules-as-Intended trumps Rules-as-Written, but the first and best guide to Intent is Writing. In the absence of that, if we agree what's intended here, (and it seems like we do) we can play that way temporarily, even if the official written rules are ambiguous or buggy for a little while.

Do we have a consensus on intent? It seems to me that Gremlin can walk through walls and ignore hindering creatures, but not break restraining conjurations or stuck tokens. Gremlin is also affected by cripple and stumble. Is that all the interactions we need to cover for the time being until we get a rules cleanup?

Basically, de-facto, if its exterior to the goblin, ignore it, but if it's targeted or attached, the Goblin isn't moving.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Sailor Vulcan on July 15, 2013, 06:05:39 PM
ringkichard, I hope you're right. If BG can move through walls and ignore hindering creatures, then the only effective way for my current new build to deal with them is restraining them.

I'm relatively new to the game, so I can't say this for certain, but I think that having such a low mana cost creature that can always move up to two zones every single action phase no matter what under any conditions is a bit OP, especially when you add the defense and the armor. If people interpret Blue Gremlin that way, then I imagine that maybe just 3 of them are enough to "swarm"! And he only costs 7 mana. I completely agree that the intended meaning is more important than the literal meaning.

I hope this gets resolved soon!
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: baronzaltor on July 15, 2013, 11:47:51 PM

I'm relatively new to the game, so I can't say this for certain, but I think that having such a low mana cost creature that can always move up to two zones every single action phase no matter what under any conditions is a bit OP,


Except that he cant always move up to two zones every single action phase no matter what under any condition.

It has to be a round that the mage paid a mana to activate it.. and if yorue running 4, thats 4 mana you have to free up every turn to accomplish..
And thats saying there isnt a supression orb on the table (making him pay another mana per move action..so 2 more mana per Gremlin per sprint)
 
or assuming that the Gremlin didnt get enfeebled, making him slow... which essentially means he can pay 1 mana to not be slow every round.

or assuming he has a clear path to run... he can teleport through walls, but if he enters a zone with a Hellfire Trap, Teleport Trap, Mangler Caltrops, Spike Pit, Poison Gas Cloud, and so on he still triggers those things when he enters the zone, before he leaves it.

They also wont last long with Chains of Agony hitting them for 2 damage everytime they rush.

Also, he is still subject to Guards when he gets where hes going.

Mordoks Obelsk will make it difficult to pay for their speed-a-port ability to, when you have to pay an upkeep just to keep it on the table and another mana to trigger it.

So, its not exactly a free ride and theres obstacles out there that can still hamper them.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Wiz-Pig on July 16, 2013, 09:19:50 AM
@sIke and Tacullu64

But as stated he doesn't teleport as far as he could move, instead each move action counts as a teleport meaning he teleports one zone (which counts as him entering that zone possibly triggering traps and such), then if he has another move action he can use that to teleport another zone. The problem as currently written is 1. he does not teleport before he moves 2. if he enters a square with creatures in it on his first move-teleport he is hindered and not able to take a second move action to teleport.

If the intent is as sIke has stated it he would be significantly more powerful in being able to avoid traps, though nothing that has been said by Shadow or other persons of authority so far has made it clear that their intention goes that far.

Tacullu64: To address you more specific, it is not a matter of which set of rules takes precedence. In this case teleport clearly takes precedence over hinderance as teleport specifically references hinderance. The issue is the wording that implies that the Blue Germlin only teleports as part of each move action. Since he is not teleporting continuously through the entire distance the only things he bypasses due to teleport are those things that are in between zone (i.e. walls).
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Wiz-Pig on July 16, 2013, 09:56:05 AM
I pulled this comment from the Reliable Temple Build thread to comment on it here, since the Author is active in this thread and it seemed inappropriate to continue the discussion there with it being speculative and tangential.


Now, I have no idea what caused this change in wording, so I won't pretend that I know the intent of the rules here. It's weird that teleporting is mentioned, but not Blue Gremlin specifically. I can't tell if Arcanus was just being coy, or if he was referring to a card that existed during playtesting but hadn't (and hasn't) yet been to the printer, or if he was just future proofing.

It's quite late at night, but if no one has started a rules forum thread about this tomorrow, I'll do so myself.

I'm puzzled by this as well. The only conclusion I can come to is that there will be cards in the future that either specifically effect hindered creatures (does a creature continue to count as hindered until upkeep?) or somehow give you the ability to teleport a creature in the middle of it's move actions (maybe an enchantment that lets you teleport 1 space when revealed??). Otherwise I can't see any situation in which this distinction would be necessary. If you move once, then cast teleport on yourself obviously you can't move again, similarly if a creature activates you won't have an opportunity to cast teleport on it until after it completes its action phase. The only current exception is Divine Intervention, but I wouldn't see that as an abuse of the card.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: sIKE on July 16, 2013, 10:30:43 AM
If the intent is as sIke has stated it he would be significantly more powerful in being able to avoid traps,

When I was discussing this, I did say poof from one zone poof into another zone. Rules about entering a zone would still apply here. Traps would still apply. The only thing I would want to have fleshed out is the Stuck trait....
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Wiz-Pig on July 16, 2013, 10:35:18 AM
If the intent is as sIke has stated it he would be significantly more powerful in being able to avoid traps,

When I was discussing this, I did say poof from one zone poof into another zone. Rules about entering a zone would still apply here. Traps would still apply. The only thing I would want to have fleshed out is the Stuck trait....

My mistake. Serves me right for trying to respond to two people at the same time.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Tacullu64 on July 16, 2013, 10:59:42 AM
@sIke and Tacullu64


Tacullu64: Since he is not teleporting continuously through the entire distance the only things he bypasses due to teleport are those things that are in between zone (i.e. walls).

I'm not sure why you draw this conclusion (or maybe I'm just not understanding your point). The wording states that teleporting bypasses walls, creatures, and objects along the entire route. The entire route would include the starting zone, the ending zone, and all zones in between. Therefore, walls, creatures, or objects in any of those zones would be bypassed. At least that's the way I interpret it.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: sIKE on July 16, 2013, 11:58:34 AM
@Tacullu64,

That is the distinction that I am trying to clarify. Each move action is a teleport action. When he teleports into the next zone that move action is completed and any effects from entering that zone would take effect.

For example if he had Eagle Wings (why? just an example) and if he entered a zone that was within two zones of Gravikor he would loose the Flying trait. If there were a trap their that only affected non-flyers we would then activate that trap. Lets say Teleport Trap, he then could be teleported up to two zones away from Gravikor and then regain the Flying trait. He then could take his next move action and teleport into another zone of his choice.

If the BG were hit with the Slow trait, he could still teleport two zone, just not have the ability to take a Quick Action afterwards. If he were hit with two Slow Traits (I assume since Fast stacks, Slow would too) he would only be able to Teleport into one zone).

 
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Wiz-Pig on July 17, 2013, 03:05:51 PM
Exactly. Imagine that he is teleporting twice and each time only moving a single zone, then also add to that the fact that he must be able to declare a move action in order to teleport, and you'll understand the situation.

It has been ruled that the intention is for Blue Gremlin to ignore hinderance while he is moving in this way, but for now we are just taking it on fiat, as there isn't a specific parsing of the rules to support this. This does not imply that he can ignore any of the other consequences of entering the zones he teleports into, although the language of the Errata or altered rules may result in some additional considerations. We will have to wait and see.

Hopefully they will be stated in such a way as to just assert the intention here, or carve out a special status for creatures using move actions to teleport, because otherwise I have a feeling there will be more issues with this little guy coming down the line. Or possibly repercussions to other rules in the game.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Tacullu64 on July 17, 2013, 04:17:14 PM
He should definitely set off traps and other triggers for moving into zones because he arrives in the zones. He just shouldn't be hindered by opposing creatures since he bypasses them ( I think I would prefer the term ignores).
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: LokiDFC on August 26, 2013, 11:42:41 AM
So... any official ruling on this, Shad0w?

during a teleport move action the gremlin: 

WILL set off traps  (?)
WILL take a passage attack from a wall with the trait  (?)
WILL be able to teleport thru a wall with no LoS(like a stone wall)  (?)
CANNOT move out of a conjuration of effect that Restrains him  (?)
WILL be hindered  (?)

The last two look as if they're the most open to rule interpretation... but are the first three correct?
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: sdougla2 on August 26, 2013, 03:35:28 PM
Some of those have clear answers already, but others do not.

WILL set off traps (?): Yes
WILL take a passage attack from a wall with the trait (?): No
WILL be able to teleport thru a wall with no LoS(like a stone wall) (?): Yes

Those are all straightforward to answer based on the rules.

It seems that the intended answers to the last 2 are that Restrain prevents a Blue Gremlin from taking any move actions at all, and that the Blue Gremlin is effectively not hindered when Teleporting, but those are the questions that are up for debate.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: sIKE on August 26, 2013, 03:45:39 PM
Been hoping for Arcanus to weigh in on this one, so far no ruling.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Alex319 on August 26, 2013, 07:16:37 PM
The next rules update will change some of the terminology about movement related actions, specifically to clarify this type of situation.

The way we are planning to do it is that Blue Gremlin's teleport ability is not actually a move action; it is something you do "instead of a move action". This means that it counts as a move action for the purposes of what actions you can do in a round, but does not count as a move action for purposes of Suppression Orb, Restrained, etc.

Similarly, the use of the "Climbing" trait counts as a full action for purposes of what actions you can do in a round, but also counts as a move action for purposes of Suppression Orb, Restrained etc. (We don't want it so you can climb while Restrained!)
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Alex319 on August 26, 2013, 07:18:00 PM
In other words, sdougla2 is correct about the three questions he answered, and the answers to the other two questions are:

- He can teleport out of a Tanglevine, etc.
- He is not affected by Hindering, because Hindering only matters if you are actually taking a move action.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: ringkichard on August 26, 2013, 10:11:34 PM
Excellent! This came up during play recently, and I'm glad to have a definitive answer. Thanks for all the great work!
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: sdougla2 on August 26, 2013, 10:35:05 PM
Good, that's what makes sense to me, it's just not clear how that should work in the current iteration of the rules.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: sIKE on August 26, 2013, 11:55:51 PM
Blue Gremlin's teleport ability is not actually a move action; it is something you do "instead of a move action". This means that it counts as a move action for the purposes of what actions you can do in a round, but does not count as a move action for purposes of Suppression Orb, Restrained, etc.
I think this was what I was trying to explain earlier in the thread but could get it quite across like this. Exactly how I thought it would work and I think the changes described will help in the future.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Shad0w on August 27, 2013, 06:37:00 AM
So... any official ruling on this, Shad0w?

during a teleport move action the gremlin: 

WILL set off traps  (?)
WILL take a passage attack from a wall with the trait  (?)
WILL be able to teleport thru a wall with no LoS(like a stone wall)  (?)
CANNOT move out of a conjuration of effect that Restrains him  (?)
WILL be hindered  (?)

The last two look as if they're the most open to rule interpretation... but are the first three correct?

WILL set off traps?
yes it still enters the zone

WILL take a passage attack from a wall with the trait?
Nope because it teleports past the wall

WILL be able to teleport thru a wall with no LoS(like a stone wall)?
Yes

CANNOT move out of a conjuration of effect that Restrains him?

Currently no BG can not

WILL be hindered ?
Currently yes
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Shad0w on August 27, 2013, 06:37:44 AM
The next rules update will change some of the terminology about movement related actions, specifically to clarify this type of situation.

The way we are planning to do it is that Blue Gremlin's teleport ability is not actually a move action; it is something you do "instead of a move action". This means that it counts as a move action for the purposes of what actions you can do in a round, but does not count as a move action for purposes of Suppression Orb, Restrained, etc.

Similarly, the use of the "Climbing" trait counts as a full action for purposes of what actions you can do in a round, but also counts as a move action for purposes of Suppression Orb, Restrained etc. (We don't want it so you can climb while Restrained!)

Alex is correct this is under review.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Moonglow on August 27, 2013, 06:46:02 AM
Shadow, isn't your clarification a little ummm confusing? You've made two 'currently not' calls that seem to contradict Alex's clarification. If there is an rule clarification in the works to say that the BG isn't restrained or hindered when it telemoves, then doesn't that suggest that that should be the answer for this thread?
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: tarkin84 on August 27, 2013, 07:01:04 AM
I believe that what Shadow is saying is that under the current rules BG cannot teleport out of tanglevine and is hindered by creatures but that in the next rules update this issue will be addressed and modified BG's ability so that it will work differently.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Shad0w on August 27, 2013, 07:07:30 AM
Shadow, isn't your clarification a little ummm confusing? You've made two 'currently not' calls that seem to contradict Alex's clarification. If there is an rule clarification in the works to say that the BG isn't restrained or hindered when it telemoves, then doesn't that suggest that that should be the answer for this thread?

Currently BG teleport requires a move action. Restrained currently says the creature CAN NOT take move actions.

Hinder
If a creature begins its Action Phase in a zone with any enemy creatures, it is hindered and may only move 1 zone during its Action Phase (even if it has the Fast trait). If it moves into a zone occupied by an enemy creature, it is hindered, and must stop and cannot take any more move actions this Action Phase. Incapacitated, Restrained, or Pest creatures cannot hinder movement. Flying creatures cannot hinder the movement of non-Flying creatures, and visa-versa. Elusive creatures cannot be hindered by other creatures.

So to me it is clear.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Alex319 on August 27, 2013, 09:03:00 AM
Tarkin84 is correct. This will be changed in the next rules update.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Moonglow on August 27, 2013, 02:55:58 PM
Yes, but since its being changed, then its kinda wrong...

I mean I get/appreciate that basically Shadow is saying that these are the rules of today and play by the rules. 
But essentially it sounds like the rules are wrong and the card isn't being played as intended.  So why not provide advice that allows the card to function as intended rather than perpetuating an inaccuracy that will create confusion for anyone seeking to clarify this in the future?


I believe that what Shadow is saying is that under the current rules BG cannot teleport out of tanglevine and is hindered by creatures but that in the next rules update this issue will be addressed and modified BG's ability so that it will work differently.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Wiz-Pig on August 27, 2013, 03:03:35 PM
Yes, but since its being changed, then its kinda wrong...

I mean I get/appreciate that basically Shadow is saying that these are the rules of today and play by the rules. 
But essentially it sounds like the rules are wrong and the card isn't being played as intended.  So why not provide advice that allows the card to function as intended rather than perpetuating an inaccuracy that will create confusion for anyone seeking to clarify this in the future?


I believe that what Shadow is saying is that under the current rules BG cannot teleport out of tanglevine and is hindered by creatures but that in the next rules update this issue will be addressed and modified BG's ability so that it will work differently.

It may be best to let it go. It was previously ruled that we should ignore hinderance, but still enforce restrained... I think we should just wait for the new rules to come out. At this point there is going to be confusion no matter what.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Moonglow on August 27, 2013, 05:43:08 PM
Fair call :)

It may be best to let it go. It was previously ruled that we should ignore hinderance, but still enforce restrained... I think we should just wait for the new rules to come out. At this point there is going to be confusion no matter what.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: gaspode77 on May 31, 2016, 09:01:11 AM
Is there an official statement about BG getting hindered and restrained by conjurations?

Enviado desde mi Edison 3 mediante Tapatalk

Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Laddinfance on May 31, 2016, 09:14:46 AM
Blue Gremlin can teleport even if Unmovable or Restrained. The source doesn't matter for that.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: silverclawgrizzly on May 31, 2016, 11:19:21 AM
Bout the only thing that's gonna stop the gremlin is anchored.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Donovan on May 31, 2016, 05:35:50 PM
Blue Gremlin can teleport even if Unmovable or Restrained. The source doesn't matter for that.

So this means CURRENTLY:

WILL the Blue Gremlin set off traps?
YES, it still enters the zone

WILL the Blue Gremlin be able to teleport thru a wall with no LoS(like a stone wall)?
YES, because teleporting does not require LoS - although the incantation Teleport does require LoS ("target zone").

WILL the Blue Gremlin take a passage attack from a wall with the trait?
NO, because it teleports past the wall

CAN the Blue Gremlin move out of a conjuration of effect that Restrains him?
OLD rules said NO (because BG cannot move and therefore not teleport) - CURRENT rules say YES (because it teleports instead of moving).

WILL the Blue Gremlin be hindered ?
OLD rules said YES (because BG teleports as a *move action*) - CURRENT rules say NO (because its move action has become a *teleport*).

CAN the Blue Gremlin move 2 at a time, bypassing a zone enchantment for example ?
NO, because moving 2 zones really consists of 2 individual move actions that are in the case of the BG in fact teleport actions. So the BG teleports out of its current zone and touches down in the first zone that is next to its current zone before teleporting a 2nd time to the 2nd zone that is next to the first zone.

Did I get it?
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: wtcannonjr on May 31, 2016, 06:04:23 PM
Bout the only thing that's gonna stop the gremlin is anchored.

Or death!
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Laddinfance on June 01, 2016, 10:32:19 AM
Blue Gremlin can teleport even if Unmovable or Restrained. The source doesn't matter for that.

So this means CURRENTLY:

WILL the Blue Gremlin set off traps?
YES, it still enters the zone

WILL the Blue Gremlin be able to teleport thru a wall with no LoS(like a stone wall)?
YES, because teleporting does not require LoS - although the incantation Teleport does require LoS ("target zone").

WILL the Blue Gremlin take a passage attack from a wall with the trait?
NO, because it teleports past the wall

CAN the Blue Gremlin move out of a conjuration of effect that Restrains him?
OLD rules said NO (because BG cannot move and therefore not teleport) - CURRENT rules say YES (because it teleports instead of moving).

WILL the Blue Gremlin be hindered ?
OLD rules said YES (because BG teleports as a *move action*) - CURRENT rules say NO (because its move action has become a *teleport*).

CAN the Blue Gremlin move 2 at a time, bypassing a zone enchantment for example ?
NO, because moving 2 zones really consists of 2 individual move actions that are in the case of the BG in fact teleport actions. So the BG teleports out of its current zone and touches down in the first zone that is next to its current zone before teleporting a 2nd time to the 2nd zone that is next to the first zone.

Did I get it?

Basically. :)
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: DaveW on June 01, 2016, 04:50:11 PM
Blue Gremlin can teleport even if Unmovable or Restrained. The source doesn't matter for that.

So this means CURRENTLY:
...

WILL the Blue Gremlin be hindered ?
OLD rules said YES (because BG teleports as a *move action*) - CURRENT rules say NO (because its move action has become a *teleport*).
....

The BG still gets hindered if he chooses to not spend the mana to teleport and just move, just like any other creature.
Title: Re: Blue Gremlin and Teleport
Post by: Laddinfance on June 01, 2016, 05:11:03 PM
Blue Gremlin can teleport even if Unmovable or Restrained. The source doesn't matter for that.

So this means CURRENTLY:
...

WILL the Blue Gremlin be hindered ?
OLD rules said YES (because BG teleports as a *move action*) - CURRENT rules say NO (because its move action has become a *teleport*).
....

The BG still gets hindered if he chooses to not spend the mana to teleport and just move, just like any other creature.

Yes. If he's not teleporting then he can be hindered just like any other creature.