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Messages - Shifthappens

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Spells / Re: New warlock stuff!
« on: July 17, 2014, 12:16:45 AM »
Then, the same could be done to calculate the damage per mana of many spells

i'm not sure if it has been done before, but if not yay for that, is it has, then, i worked for nothing :S

I'm gonna assume many things:
-No hawkeye on the warlock (maybe it's worth the 2 spellpoints, 3 mana and action, but not sure yet)
-Fireshaper ring
-Opponent creature may have a curse for flame + 1, which not only gives +1 damage die to all fire, including zone fire attack that can't be buffed otherwise, but it also improves on the chance for burn condition. The additional damage for each spell is gonna be different depending on the chance of burn, so i'm gonna do the math for each spell with and without a curse on. Also gonna go up to flame + 2 and flame + 3 for math's sake depending on creatures so it can be known if it matters.
-Adramelech's touch not included in any damage formula)
-1 Burn is worth 3 damage.
-Average damage is one per die (    (2*0+2*1+2*2)/6=1  )
-won't consider armor, since it depends on the opponent. just consider half of the damage per die as being critical and substract the armor from the non critical other half of the damage.
i've made an excel sheet about that on dropbox:
Unsuprisingly, flameblast is one of the best since it's mana efficient and yet quite damaging. Ring of fire is great if you have more then one enemy, it's 1 mana better then flameblast then for similar result as a 2 buffed flameblast (like, with ring)

Fireball is good, but you pay 3 more mana for 2.75 damage more overall. its better against high armor target for sure because of the higher number of dice, so theres that to concider

Strategy and Tactics / Re: Calling All Adramelech Experts
« on: July 15, 2014, 06:16:58 PM »
my bad, i've written it wrongly here, wont the warlock in question still get the 6 life anyway?

Also, has anyone tried the adramelech warlock with few bigs creatures and a focus on fire damage to kill the mage? I'm uncertain of the efficiency of the wildfire imps because of their frailty so i'm wondering about the other strategies.

Rules Discussion / Re: burn on flame immunity
« on: July 15, 2014, 04:25:16 PM »
thus i shall stop my pointless questioning about abusing burn and thank you for pointing it out. I'll ask the one who started the "FiF big list of question" to uptade his faqs too, i've actually got the idea there :S.

well, thanks a lot for the answer.

Another question then. Can a burn marker be moved at all to a flame immune, thus making it disapear? for exemple, an oponent fire mage burn you, yet the only creature you can get to is fire immune, and you try moving the burn there to get rid of it.

Rules Discussion / Re: burn on flame immunity
« on: July 15, 2014, 03:58:29 PM »
the codex says, that one who is flame immune can't be affected by a condition, but it doesn't say it prevents the condition to be applied, which is why i'm asking these questions. From my point of view, having the condition on yet not being affected simply means that the condition does nothing even if it's there.

If id does say it somewhere in the codex, i'd appreciate if you could point it out since i may have bypassed it. I've seen in the FiF big list of question that it can be done and i didn't see anyone saying it can't, and suddenly in other posts it's the opposite and it can't be done, so if you have found an official answer somewhere i'd be glad if you could point it out.

I tried searching for this one and have not found it yet.

I know that for most this seem evident, but what i'm unsure of is more of the interpretation about words than anything else. "Immune" for me is about targeting and damage, also effect of the condition, but having the condition on is something i consider unclear by itself. A flame immune creature can be attacked with the lash for exemple, but it won't do a thing. The same may be true for conditions. Have the condition yet does nothing. Same about what "affected" truly means. is it the condition itself or the effect of the condition?

What gives me reasons to believe there might be a chance for that is that the wording of burnproof says the condition can't be there at all, which is a little bit different

Also, i'm not sure who in this forum is an official about rules, i think that Shadow is one, but thats about it.

Strategy and Tactics / Re: Calling All Adramelech Experts
« on: July 15, 2014, 03:19:07 PM », but because from the wording of immunity, you can't target the necro with the spell, so you gain 6 life for 16 mana, yet tainted doesn't work, but you could have an emerald tegu put a rot marker on the necro yet not have the rot marker do anything. I'm asking the question about conditions and immunities in the rule section:

Spells require a target so ignite can't put burn on a flame immune because its a fire spell and has to target the mage, but fireweaving and adramelech's torment are  not fire subtype. The torment is dark. Now all i have to figure out is the extent of the "can't be affected" clause of immunity. Can it still have the condition yet the condition doesn't do anything on the immune target.

Rules Discussion / burn on flame immunity
« on: July 15, 2014, 03:05:31 PM »
I've been discussing the issue with some others and i'm not yet convinced about it. Can burn markers be placed on flame immune objects? It can't be placed on a burnproof object since the wording is very specific about it, but not that much about flame immune:

(Object Trait)
Cannot have the Burn condition. May be vulnerable to flame damage, but cannot “burn”. All Incorporeal objects are Burnproof.

(Object Trait)
This object is immune to all attacks, damage, conditions, and effects of the specified damage type, including critical damage and direct damage. It cannot be targeted or affected by spells or attacks of the specified type.

I've seen that it is okay here ( ) and no one denied it, but no official answer truly agreed that it's okay. So, can burn be placed with flame attack (like lash of hellfire with effect roll)? Can Fireweaving or Adramelech's Torment put a burn on a Flame Immune object to buff the warlock's demon yet not doing any fire damage with it?

Strategy and Tactics / Re: Calling All Adramelech Experts
« on: July 15, 2014, 02:50:44 PM »
being protected means ever if you have it on you it doesn't hurt you, but it doesn't prevent the condition from being put the way burnproof specifically say. Maybe i should try asking in the rules section for an answer from the arcane wonder team.

I got to agree with boocheck that technicly flame immunity is supposed to be stronger then burnproof, but in another way, something can burn yet be unnaffected by the flame, and some other can't burn but be afftected by fire. Iron doesn't burn but it can melt. Something fueled by fire wont be affected by it, but if it is fueled by fire, then it is kinda burning, like a fire elemental.

Strategy and Tactics / Re: Calling All Adramelech Experts
« on: July 15, 2014, 12:46:30 PM »
darn it, i thought i found something clever to still buff swarms.

(Object Trait)
Cannot have the Burn condition. May be vulnerable to flame damage, but cannot “burn”. All Incorporeal objects are Burnproof.

i thought that flame immune made it so that you can't target with fire stuff, but i thought the transfer from fireweaving or the creation of the burn from torment could still work, even if it doesn't affect the creature in any way. Still unsure since it doesn't specify that you can't HAVE the condition on (same as burnproof), it just say that you are not affected. (also, torment is a dark spell, not fire: ). You can still, for exemple, attack a flame immune creature with a melee fire attack, but the wording say that it does a big zero damage. Having a condition on wont matter either, but the warlock and the burn synergy changes that for the first time.

That explains my dilemma on the matter, that is still not quite answered yet because of the wording.

Strategy and Tactics / Re: Calling All Adramelech Experts
« on: July 15, 2014, 09:36:23 AM »
they can receive it from what i understand (not directly from fire attacks, but indirectly like with torment or ignite), but not receive any damage from the burn

Strategy and Tactics / Re: Calling All Adramelech Experts
« on: July 14, 2014, 10:09:50 PM »
1-i'd say the 2 bests opening would be battleforge + self harmonize/crystal, or pantagram harmonized. burning stuff is expensive.

2-the torment seems super nice, it has just way too much synergy. i find it so strong that i would maim wing myself just so i could burn myself to give it to the other mage. Helmet is purely a swarm thing so it depends on the opponent. Torment helps for both swarm and solo. Just think of the action advantage!

3- Sesyrix is a frail utility. so you need some backup for him to be worth it. alone he's susceptible to die. The spell cast would depent on opponent and state of the game, and maybe he'll just melee too depending on the situation (marked for death gives him +2 dice! 3 if with helm and a burn)

4-Honestly, having blood demon seems weird in a swarm yet its a demon tough to kill, so he's worth it by himself, same for dark pact slayer. If you build swarm and have nothing more, you might end up being defeated by simple strategy. having tough creatures to deal with guards make your imps stay alive longer. They complement each other in their own way. More different tools is always good if its not too expensive.

5-I personally think that you need everything with her. fire is better with curses, curses alone would mean just playing necro is better, kind off... if you play warlock you need fire, so if you have fire you need curses. Thing is the points for each depend on your own strategy and ideas.

6-Combustion is a situational finisher. with a curse, marked for death, and 3 burns, you roll 8 dices for 5. yet you could do the same for 5 mana with flamestrike. so it needs more to finish something. but just imagine the big hit with 4-5 burns on a mage, its insanely big!..... so its super situational. no more then one of it should be in any fire book.

7-The new warlock has just wayy too much synergy with fire, and fire is good vs everything except flame immune stuff. Yet, flame immune can still have a burn on them for melee buffs to demon, burnproof can still have their faces melted by fire, fire destroy plants AND zombies (and ooze). Sure, there are some tools against it, but nothing that can't be dealt with, except maybe iron golem and monolith. These two are the only things hard to deal with by fire, but they are hard to deal with on their own anyway. Golen with a rust can still recieve tons of fire dices from a flamestrike. Monolith cant have any curse on it, but can still burn so its not hopeless. These 2 are the worst yet they can still be dealth with. except if the opponent has 4 golem. then you are screwed, just kill the mage then. have a ton of healing and defensive stuff (vampirism, death link, regen) and the worst vs fire is not that bad! BURN EVERYTHING!!!! BUUUUUUUURRRNNNN!!!!!

Please keep in mind that its all theories for me, gonna buy the game tomorrow (was sold out last week... snif  :'( )

Spells / Re: New warlock stuff!
« on: July 14, 2014, 05:31:37 PM »
i feel like once a few creatures are out, the new warlock has already a ton of options so that theres no need to be overprotective of the pantagrame.

Also, the more i think about it, the less sure i am about wildfire imps. They are great for swarm, but so damn squishy... Its nicve that you can stack them in a zone then BAM! but then, if your opponent has a few creatures guarding, your imps are gonna die fast with only 5 health. Its hard to beat the falcon or the zombies for swarms. Both have a way to survive/evade hits. The imps are offensive, but not defensive enough. I need to test them, but i'm not sure swarming is the name of the game with any of the warlocks. like, maybe the bats and the imps together are better then only imps, yet bat has not synergy unfortunatly :S. But at least they wont die as fast if the opponent isn't guarding, and thats what makes me wonder about the imp. Maybe having some way to incapacitate, like force bash, or to ignore guard with tanglevine, will help, but its starting to be hella expensive.

If they are one shots because they die, they are better of replaced by more flamestrike and a hawkeye... Same mana cost, and more damage (and chance of burn)

anyone has any data to share about wildfire imp play?

Spells / New warlock stuff!
« on: July 13, 2014, 08:05:15 PM »
I'm starting to build an Adramelech Warlock book and still trying to figure out what is worth it. There doesn't seem to be much discussion yet about the new spells so here goes! (link to spells since they are not in the SBB yet:

I can't see why he wouldn't be included, he's just way too nice to not have.

Adramelech's Touch:
With the Arraxian Crown Walock it's okay, since he's a little more then the other one about curses, but it has just way too much synergy with the Adramelech warlock and with the new torment. At least 2! It's expensive point wise and expensive on mages, yet easely dispellable. It shouldn't be the first curse cast so that once it's there, the opponent might not have any dispell remaining.

Adramelech's torment and Ignite:
If a warlock has the torment, i feel like ignite is a waste. The torment makes it so that placing burns take no action and same mana cost as ignite, and it can be done just before fireweaving to stack the fire on a kill target (most likely mage) by burning somethign else in the zone then moving the burn on the kill target. And torment cant be nullified (but still, triggering nullify with ignite isnt so bad, yet it can also be done with curse that you have many of) In fact, the new torment is so good from my point of view that i'd include 2-3 of it just in case it gets dissolved. The ability to burn without wasting an action is great.

Infernal scourger:
He's nice, kind off, but he feels... frail. Sure it has a 3 dice piercing 1 counterstrike, but he's not dangerous enough that it makes focusing him worth it. He can go up to 4 dices if the warlock has the helm and the other one is burning. But for counterstrike to be nice, i feel like a creature should be tougher. It feels like he's great against swarms, but poor against elite. Warlock can already destroy swarms with AoE fire, and the swarms are unlikely to focus the scourger. He's also not tough enough to survive more then 2-3 hits from "elite" creatures.

Arcane Corruption:
I don't know... maybe 1 in a book but no more. The opponent need to stack many enchants for it to but worth the time (2 minimum) and we have so many curses to that directly counter and or overwhelm buffs that its a little bit too situational. No more then 1 in any warlock book.

Of all things a swarm fear, armor is a big one, and with the torment and the smoldering curse, it make this curse really worth it. it cost 1 to 3 less then acid ball to make sure it really has 2 less armor, and it doesn't go away with the armor swapping shenanigan. I'll include 2 for sure in any swarm book with warlock.

Blood Demon:
Would be great as a blood reaper with the male warlock, but i'm not sure if its worth the spot with the new warlock, and same for dark pact slayer. The new warlock seems to have 2 main strategy, being lots of fire and/or swarm. Having expensive creatures is okay, but which one to chose? The dark pact slayer seems better at killing stuff then the blood demon, but the blood demon is more durable, sort of, with vampirism and flying. The Dark pact slayer is better at killings things with armor, that swam and fire has trouble with (like, its fire immune or burnproof). I feel like blood demon is better with male warlock and situational with the other one. Dark pact slayer helps kill what burn and swarm can't, so he still has his place.

He's a superb defensive creature, but wayyyy too overpriced if you want to use him with a warlock. If, somehow, the conjuration in question gets destroyed, hes not worth more then a 9 mana creature with his stats, and if he's out, hes easier to teleport, push, or tanglevine if the conjuration really must be destroyed. I won't include it with the new warlock, but maybe with a graveyard or altar of skull necro it might be nice.

Devil's Trident:
As a blast spell, it's not mana efficient. can't get more then 1 burn, and for the mana, the number of dice is low. As a control spell, the cripple is uncertain, so it's a risky thing if one is hoping for cripple. We have 2 tools that cover the 2 roles. Fireball and enfeeble. Both are better at their own role. Sure it doesn't do both, but doing both is wierd. If you really need to control a creature's damage, slow is great if you run. it won't follow AND attack, and it's there to stay. If you try to control it by killing it, the little bit of damage from Devil's trident isn't enough. better to fireball or fireblast (for 2 less mana for same number of dice and more chance to burn). So far, i'm not convinced of the role this is supposed to have.

Bloodfire Helmet:
Going swarm? get it once or twice in your book.

Hmmmmmm, he's devastating that's for sure, but the price to include/play him is huge. The biggest synergy it has is the finite life in the zone trait. I won't inblude it.

It's a great finisher in a fire book, and thats about it. maybe 1 of it, but no more, since it's too situational to take 2 of. For the same mana, a  flamestrike has the same number of dice as combusting 2 burns, so it need 3 or more burn to be worth it.

Wildfire Imp:
Enough discussion is there already about its swarm potential.

Spellbook Design and Construction / Re: Adramelech Warlock Swarm Book
« on: July 12, 2014, 03:57:09 PM »
darn, should have looked more carefully, thanks for the info!

Rules Discussion / Re: Forged in Fire expansion big list of questions
« on: July 11, 2014, 08:27:50 PM »
Does a wildfire imp still has LoS to teleport to an obscured target? Technically, the obscured and burning creature is not targeted by the teleport, since i believe the zone is the target, yet with obscured its a lil bit confusing.

Spells / Re: Gurmash, Orc Sergeant
« on: July 10, 2014, 06:41:01 PM »
with all the people here saying its hard to find a time where gurmash is worth it, is the same true for the imp familiar? I've seen almost no one yet talk about the new warlock on the forum

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