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Author Topic: Counter strike when dead  (Read 3413 times)

paulgrogan

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Counter strike when dead
« on: April 02, 2013, 06:06:44 PM »
Sorry if this has been asked before, I looked in the rules section and couldn't find it.
I also have no idea why this question hasn't cropped up before in the 8 or so games I've played, but it did occur tonight.

We did find a thread on BGG which Bryan replied to though saying that if a creature is killed, damage barriers still count but counter strike doesn't.  We scoured the rulebook for this and couldn't find anything, but it's such a big thing, I was expecting it to be present in the forum here.  Looks like the FAQ entry is empty.  I thought this one would definitely be an FAQ.

The way I saw it is that when you are on guard, or you have counter strike, you are hitting them whilst they are hitting you.  Ht it seems the ruling has gone the other way, and if the attack kills you, no counterstrike.

Tacullu64

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Re: Counter strike when dead
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2013, 06:19:36 PM »
Yep, you are correct if death occurs prior to the counterstrike it doesn't happen.

Thematically I view it as the counterstrike isn't simultaneous, some creatures are fast enough to get in a return strike as long as they live.

metadust

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Re: Counter strike when dead
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2013, 01:13:35 AM »
Counterstrike occurs as the cause of an attack, so it is a reaction to the attack that was made. So I'd say it is safe to say that if you die as a result you don't get to deal damage back (Damage Barriers on the other hand sound fine because the attacker was damaged in the act of attacking itself, rather suffering retaliation.)

You could argue Counterstrike is simultaneous in nature though, because you can CS flying creatures that have to 'swoop' down to attack you when you would otherwise have no shot at doing so. That is a bit of a longshot though, I'd commit to CS having to be a reaction to an attack that occured by definition, not an attack that was made when another attack occured.

paulgrogan

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Re: Counter strike when dead
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2013, 03:07:19 AM »
this should be in the FAQ somewhere.  We had to google BGG to get the answer.

 I can honestly see it both ways.  However, my gut feeling is that counter strike would occur at the same time.  I'm imagining me being on guard.  The flying creature swoops down to attack.  I stand there doing nothing, waiting for it to hit me.  Ad then afterwards I hit it back.  Seems wrong.

Even without flying, the way I picture counter strike is that whilst the enemy is hitting me, I'm hitting back.  Not just stood there waiting for him to stick his sword in me, and then when he is done, I hit him back afterwards.

It appears though that this is the rule so I'm going to have to get my head re-tuned. :)

Shad0w

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Re: Counter strike when dead
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2013, 07:42:16 AM »
It was in the FAQ but the ruling may get changed soon so it was removed. We are talking it over now. Currently the way it works is the damage resolves even if it was on a mage and the mage dies. This can cause matches to end in a draw. The way I see it is if a may is dead they can no longer power spells so the barrier trigger should not resolve.
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paulgrogan

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Re: Counter strike when dead
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2013, 07:57:25 AM »
Good to know it is being talked about.   One thing that really impressed me with this game (and it takes a lot to impress me) is that everything made logical sense.   I first looked at the Demonhide armour, at all the keywords and went "WTF?"   But then, when I thought about it, read all the keywords, it all made sense.  If you just imagine that I have armour with spikes on and anybody hitting me with a melee attack, which actually hits me will get spiked back - simples.

This is a story I use when demoing the game, to explain how all of the keywords make logical sense.

Counterstrike however as I said earlier is the one that gets me.  But if you're suggesting that damage barriers should also not work, that's even more wrong IMO.  I've got my spiked armour on - you come up and hit me.  My spikes are spiking you at the same time, they dont jump out at you afterwards.  Even if you say "The mage is dead, so his magic summoned armour disappears", it was there when you hit me..

It's like walking into a fire and then putting it out with a bucket of water.  You've put it out, yes, but it would have hurt you whilst you were doing it.

Arcanus

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Re: Counter strike when dead
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2013, 09:25:52 AM »
Hello all,

Realism and flavor are our top concerns. Ideally and realistically the counterstrike and damage barriers are supposed to be simultaneous.  

During development we had to make some tough choices as to when to sacrifice realism in order to keep the game simpler and easier, and this was one of them.  We decided to break up all events and actions into steps, and try to keep things from happening simultaneously.  For example, with Counterstrike and Damage Barrier, it creates weird anomalies when they are simultaneous.  A simple example is with Vampiric trait - when does the creature heal back his damage if he dies simultaneously from a Damage Barrier? It keeps the game system cleaner, and paves the way for interesting abilities later that function better where events are sequential.

Once we decided it was going to be best to go with sequential events, we had to decide where to place the damage barrier step. Initially it was at the beginning of the attack  "you have to step through the barrier to reach your target". But, that made damage barriers even more powerful (and they are already extremely powerful) so we moved it to after the attack occurs.

On counterstrike, although the original intention was to be simultaneous, we felt it was not too much of a stretch to say that the attacker strikes first, and the counterstrike is a reaction to that attack, occurring a split second later.

However, there are exceptions:  We have a coming High Elf guard with a long halberd that can strike first when guarding.  His text reads, "When guarding, Temple High Guard gains Melee +2 and may counterstrike first (the Counterstrike Step is moved to just after the Declare Attack Step)."

Hope this helps!

DarthDadaD20

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Re: Counter strike when dead
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2013, 09:44:25 AM »
I will be the first person to build a tribal elf book!

I do not care if there is zero card synergy.
I do not care if it can win.
I do not care if I have to spend all of my spell book points on elf creatures and elf related incantations, conjurations, and enchantments, leaving me with no equipment or attack spells.

I will be the first person to build a tribal elf book.

Also, High Elf guard is a winner! Who needs a lowly orc bodyguard when you can have a high elf guard! (For some contribution to the thread. Most other games I have played has a Counter Strike take affect at the end of damage.)
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
It has been around since the dawn of time,
it follows your loved ones as well as mine,
takes the form of a mountain as well as a flower,
it cannot be outrun by the greatest of power.
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
Within Shad0w.

paulgrogan

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Re: Counter strike when dead
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2013, 10:07:01 AM »
High Elf guard sounds good.   Thanks for the explanation of the mechanics.  

I think last night I had a skeletal sentry on guard.  Dead dude with a sword.   Along came some small flappy creature, bat or bird or something.  I was on guard.  I just couldnt get it in my head that I wouldn't be able to swing at it whilst it was attacking me. If I just get my head around it being a 'counter' strike - it happens AFTERWARDS - that might do it :)

Or say to all MtG players that even when you are on guard, the attacking creature has first-strike.

jacksmack

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Re: Counter strike when dead
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2013, 04:29:07 PM »
Hello all,

Realism and flavor are our top concerns. Ideally and realistically the counterstrike and damage barriers are supposed to be simultaneous. 

During development we had to make some tough choices as to when to sacrifice realism in order to keep the game simpler and easier, and this was one of them.  We decided to break up all events and actions into steps, and try to keep things from happening simultaneously.  For example, with Counterstrike and Damage Barrier, it creates weird anomalies when they are simultaneous.  A simple example is with Vampiric trait - when does the creature heal back his damage if he dies simultaneously from a Damage Barrier? It keeps the game system cleaner, and paves the way for interesting abilities later that function better where events are sequential.

Once we decided it was going to be best to go with sequential events, we had to decide where to place the damage barrier step. Initially it was at the beginning of the attack  "you have to step through the barrier to reach your target". But, that made damage barriers even more powerful (and they are already extremely powerful) so we moved it to after the attack occurs.

On counterstrike, although the original intention was to be simultaneous, we felt it was not too much of a stretch to say that the attacker strikes first, and the counterstrike is a reaction to that attack, occurring a split second later.

However, there are exceptions:  We have a coming High Elf guard with a long halberd that can strike first when guarding.  His text reads, "When guarding, Temple High Guard gains Melee +2 and may counterstrike first (the Counterstrike Step is moved to just after the Declare Attack Step)."

Hope this helps!

I have read your post like 10 times, and i still cant understand if your saying dead creatures can counterstrike or not :(

baronzaltor

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Re: Counter strike when dead
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2013, 06:16:35 PM »
Hello all,

Realism and flavor are our top concerns. Ideally and realistically the counterstrike and damage barriers are supposed to be simultaneous. 

During development we had to make some tough choices as to when to sacrifice realism in order to keep the game simpler and easier, and this was one of them.  We decided to break up all events and actions into steps, and try to keep things from happening simultaneously.  For example, with Counterstrike and Damage Barrier, it creates weird anomalies when they are simultaneous.  A simple example is with Vampiric trait - when does the creature heal back his damage if he dies simultaneously from a Damage Barrier? It keeps the game system cleaner, and paves the way for interesting abilities later that function better where events are sequential.

Once we decided it was going to be best to go with sequential events, we had to decide where to place the damage barrier step. Initially it was at the beginning of the attack  "you have to step through the barrier to reach your target". But, that made damage barriers even more powerful (and they are already extremely powerful) so we moved it to after the attack occurs.

On counterstrike, although the original intention was to be simultaneous, we felt it was not too much of a stretch to say that the attacker strikes first, and the counterstrike is a reaction to that attack, occurring a split second later.

However, there are exceptions:  We have a coming High Elf guard with a long halberd that can strike first when guarding.  His text reads, "When guarding, Temple High Guard gains Melee +2 and may counterstrike first (the Counterstrike Step is moved to just after the Declare Attack Step)."

Hope this helps!

I have read your post like 10 times, and i still cant understand if your saying dead creatures can counterstrike or not :(

They cannot, unless some specific text on a creature says otherwise.
Basically when the creature dies, the combat sequence ends...so he never gets the chance to counter.