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Author Topic: Mana Siphoon and Divine Intervention  (Read 2487 times)

Quibleon

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Mana Siphoon and Divine Intervention
« on: November 20, 2013, 12:26:21 PM »
Hello.
I have looked up for clarifications on this, but did not find a specific topic on the matter, sorry if this has already been answered or is implied in the standard rules. What happens if I reveal my divine intervention the moment my oponent casts his mana siphon? If he is the only mage in range, will he target himself, or will it have already targeted me?

Thank you for your cooperation, this game is getting better and better, my friends and I are just waiting for the DvN and CoK expansion packs to arrive, as we already have the FvW expansion and Basic set.

XD

Zuberi

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Re: Mana Siphoon and Divine Intervention
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2013, 01:35:04 PM »
There are 3 steps to casting a spell. Mana Siphon's effect does not occur until Step 3: Resolve Spell. Choosing the mage to be effected is also part of the effect, not part of the initial cast, so it doesn't occur until Step 3 either. Therefore, you could reveal Divine Intervention after Step 1 or after Step 2 to move your mage out of range beforehand.  Mana Siphon also doesn't say "you may choose" it says you have to choose. So, yes, they would have to drain their own channeling.

sIKE

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Re: Mana Siphoon and Divine Intervention
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2013, 05:21:01 PM »
As far as I know, Divine Interception is an exception to the rule. It is able to "interrupt" another spell and it allows for its effect to go first.

Hope this helps.
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Zuberi

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Re: Mana Siphoon and Divine Intervention
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2013, 05:40:01 PM »
Quote from: sIKE
It is able to "interrupt" another spell and it allows for its effect to go first.

Not exactly. Divine Intervention resolves the same way any other Enchantment resolves and has to follow the same rules for doing so. Per the rules for an enchantment "You cannot interrupt an event to reveal an enchantment." You have to reveal it in between the various steps, phases, and actions of the game.

However, Divine Intervention can cause a spell or attack to fail and be canceled immediately via the ruling on Changing the Range or Target of a Spell or Attack, found on page 3 of the FAQ. In that regards you might consider it as an "interrupt" I suppose, since it can prevent events from occurring in their natural progression.

This could effect the casting of Mana Siphon, but it depends on who had Divine Intervention cast upon them. Mana Siphon targets a Zone. If the mage casting the Mana Siphon had Divine Intervention on them and it was revealed after Step 1: Cast Spell, then the Mana Siphon is cancelled and sent to the discard pile. This is because the Caster moved (even if it was to the same zone).

However, if the Divine Intervention was on the defending mage and you use it to teleport out of range, then the Mana Siphon completes it's cast and the caster now must choose a target of some kind for its effect (the only possible option being himself unless in a multiplayer game). This is because you do not resolve the effect of the spell, or choose the targets of the effect, until Step 3: Resolve Spell. The Divine Intervention does not actually interfere with the targeting of the Spell itself in this case.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 05:42:36 PM by Zuberi »

sIKE

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Re: Mana Siphoon and Divine Intervention
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2013, 09:09:06 PM »
@Zuberi,

There is a thread here somewhere that Arcanus ruled that DI works pretty much as I described, it is able to Interrupt a spell and break the rules as such. This was on posted before the forums were migrated to this platform and I am not having any luck finding it.

What was said that the warm light of Asyra has whisked the Mage away from danger/death. It could be revealed at just about any point in the attack process (someone help me here, I think even before the Roll Damage phase).
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ringkichard

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Re: Mana Siphoon and Divine Intervention
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2013, 09:35:09 PM »
I can't find anything wrong with Zuberi's reasoning.

It's true that often it's possible to reveal enchantments very late in the resolution of a spell or attack and still have an interrupting effect, but nothing I know of in Mage Wars uses the stack or "in response" the way MtG does (did) that lets you rewind time or causation.

Nullify and Divine Intervention counter spells in generally the same way, as far as I know, by being revealed during the spellcasting steps and either directly or indirectly canceling the spell's normal function.
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Zuberi

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Re: Mana Siphoon and Divine Intervention
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2013, 10:03:54 PM »
Quote from: sIKE
It is able to "interrupt" another spell and it allows for its effect to go first.
I haven't seen any place that states it's effect is retroactive like that. If that was the case, then if you revealed Divine Intervention after I targeted your mage with a fireball, you are saying Divine Intervention's effect would actually interrupt Step 1: Cast Spell and go off first. This means that I then haven't actually selected a target yet (your spell interrupted me and went off beforehand) and I can change my mind and target your creature instead.

If you consider its ability to cause an attack or spell to fail and be cancelled as "interrupting" the spell or attack, then so be it. However, it can not actually interrupt any of the steps of casting a spell or making an attack. It has to be revealed between the steps like any other enchantment and it's effect is not retroactive. If you reveal Divine Intervention after I target you with a Fireball, then my targeting you with the fireball STILL occurred first during Step 1: Cast Spell. My Fireball then fails and is sent to the discard pile because the target moved before Step 3: Resolve Spell.

sIKE

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Re: Mana Siphoon and Divine Intervention
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2013, 11:23:02 PM »
DI can not change prior events, but it can prevent future events is what I am trying to say. The main intent being that depending upon when I reveal DI say during a Fireball attack spell is cast in my direction, in the Attack sequence will determine what will happen to the spell if I play DI to early you can change target, but if I reveal it after the Roll Dice Phase and before the Damage and Effects phase the spell is just discarded at that point. DI is different in this aspect than say Eagle Wings. Once you are targeted by with a Melee attack you are allowed to reveal the Eagle Wings just like DI, but unlike DI it will not take effect until the end of the Attack sequence.

Hope I am making sense here.
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Zuberi

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Re: Mana Siphoon and Divine Intervention
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2013, 12:06:08 AM »
Quote from: sIKE
DI can not change prior events, but it can prevent future events...
Quote from: sIKE
if I play DI to early you can change target

The first sentiment actually seems to put the two of us in agreement. However the second statement contradicts the first. Choosing your target occurs during Step 1: Declare Attack (or Step 1: Cast Spell for casting) and after that has been done, it can not be changed.

Quote from: sIKE
DI is different in this aspect than say Eagle Wings. Once you are targeted by with a Melee attack you are allowed to reveal the Eagle Wings just like DI, but unlike DI it will not take effect until the end of the Attack sequence.

That's a really poor example because flight is something that the rules specifically states can not be gained or lost in the middle of an attack (page 15 of Rulebook v2.0). Pretty much every other Enchantment would take effect immediately when revealed, regardless of which step it comes after.

For Example: You can reveal Agony after Step 2: Avoid Attack to cause the attacker to roll 2 fewer Dice.
Example #2: You can reveal Healing Charm after Step 3: Roll Dice to heal your creature before the damage can kill it (assuming your creature had previous damage and is not simply about to get one-shot).
Example #3: You can reveal Enchantment Transfusion after Step 1: Cast Spell to keep an enchantment from being Dispelled, instead opting to move it to a different target. This works exactly like the Divine Intervention, causing the Dispel to be cancelled because it's target moved.

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Re: Mana Siphoon and Divine Intervention
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2013, 09:57:19 AM »
Wow, I didn't know you could reveal a non-mandatory enchantment in the middle of an attack! I keep forgetting that you can reveal non-mandatory enchants pretty much anytime as long as it's between steps. I somehow ended up treating the timing of non-mandatories almost the same way as quick casts and ready markers: usually before or after a friendly creature's action phase, but sometimes during the upkeep too.

And the damage and effects step is a separate step from the rolling dice step? So I can actually know specifically how much damage a creature is going to take before deciding whether to heal them by revealing an enchantment...interesting, although thematically it sounds kind of prophetic. I mean, most mages don't usually know the precise moment a creature will die for certain so they can avert that death at the very last moment. Then again, as far as I know all of the enchantments that can heal a creature right before  the damage and effects step are holy spells, so I suppose it still makes sense.
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aquestrion

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Re: Mana Siphoon and Divine Intervention
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2013, 01:08:17 PM »
Or reveal rhino hide to soak Mon critical dice rolls