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Author Topic: Enchantment Transfusion and Nullify  (Read 4982 times)

piousflea

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Enchantment Transfusion and Nullify
« on: May 28, 2013, 03:38:01 PM »
From the preview thread:

What happens if you attempt to transfuse a pile of enchantments to a creature with a hostile Nullify? Does it trigger at all? If so, does it nullify the entire Transfusion? Or does it only nullify the very first thing that you attempt to shift? If so, do you get to pay another X mana and attempt to shift it again?

I personally don't think that Nullify should trigger at all. Here's why:
- Nullify only works during the Counter Spell Step of casting an enchant or incantation.
- There's no such thing as a Counter Spell Step to revealing an enchantment.
- Therefore, nullify should not trigger at all.

ringkichard

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Re: Enchantment Transfusion and Nullify
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2013, 11:02:49 PM »
If Enchantment Transfusion doesn't trigger hostile Nullifies, that makes it possible to have both a friendly and a hostile Nullify on the same target.

I believe that the rules currently forbid the doubling the same enchantment on a single creature. Nullify is one of only a few enchantments that you might want to cast either on your own creature, or an opponent's. Come to think of it, so is Enchantment Transfusion.

This is a tournament rules enforcement dilemma. We may need to revisit this whole ball of wax when Shad0w has some free cycles.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 11:07:59 PM by ringkichard »
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sIKE

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Re: Enchantment Transfusion and Nullify
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2013, 09:17:49 AM »
da king,

Nullify is one of only a few enchantments that you might want to cast either on your own creature, or an opponent's.

There are many, many Enchantments that you would want place on an opponent or his critters. Nullify, Jinx, and Decoy are the most obvious. There are no curses that you would want to place on your team. I have placed Divine Intervention on an opposing Mage to get him the heck away from him. You should of seen the look in his eyes when he cast Battle Fury and Power Strike on his Mage (he had initiative) and I then reveled the DI and moved him to the opposite side of the board. As the commercial goes....Priceless...

I like to think outside of the box and can see many uses, like hidden curses ferried out to some baddie and then Transfused on to him :) sounds like a lot of fun to me.
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ringkichard

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Re: Enchantment Transfusion and Nullify
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2013, 04:18:05 PM »
I worded that poorly. I meant, "An enchantment that you might cast on EITHER your own creatures or your opponent's creatures." That is, double edged enchantments you might use to help your own stuff or hurt your opponent's.

For example, nullify goes both on your own creatures to prevent curses, and also on the other guy's to prevent heals. Or, to use a curse example, you might place Death Link on your own regenerating creature (or to knock off Sleep), or you might place it on an opponent's creature to do DoT.

So, yeah, Nullify, Death Link, Turn To Stone, maybe. It's a limited category, but troublesome because it's forbidden to have two enchantments with the same name on a single creature (regardless of controller) but there's no way to know that this has happened until one flips.

Personally, I favor an erratum to allow only one copy of an enchantment with a given name, per controller (or team in cases of more than 2 players).
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 05:41:08 PM by ringkichard »
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ThePoPGod

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Re: Enchantment Transfusion and Nullify
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2013, 06:10:34 AM »
The rule just need to be changed that both you and your opponent can have the same enchantment at the same time. If it stays the way it is it will really hinder the tournament play for the game.

jacksmack

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Re: Enchantment Transfusion and Nullify
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2013, 06:40:58 AM »
The rule just need to be changed that both you and your opponent can have the same enchantment at the same time. If it stays the way it is it will really hinder the tournament play for the game.

should be something like:

A player may never target an object with the same enchantment that is already revealed on the object (no matter what player controls the enchantment).
A player may never target an object with the same enchantment that he already has facedown (unrevealed) on an object.

In case both mages has cast the same enchantment face down, the first mage to reveal his enchantment will prevent the other mage from revealing his until the first enchantment is gone from the object. (destroyed or moved.)



Shad0w

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Re: Enchantment Transfusion and Nullify
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2013, 07:11:06 AM »
Correct enchants take effect when they are revealed. It does not start a new casting chain.
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sIKE

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Re: Enchantment Transfusion and Nullify
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2013, 04:21:52 PM »
The rule just need to be changed that both you and your opponent can have the same enchantment at the same time. If it stays the way it is it will really hinder the tournament play for the game.

Found this pearl while reading through the 2.0 Rulebook:

It is possible that both players may attach an identical enchantment to the same target. If an identical enchantment is revealed on the same target, it is immediately destroyed.

So it does appear that it is legal for you and your opponent to cast the same enchantment onto the same object as long as A) the first enchantment is still hidden and B) can not revealed after the other is revealed and is still active (otherwise it would be discarded)
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Kharhaz

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Re: Enchantment Transfusion and Nullify
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2013, 06:20:00 PM »


I personally don't think that Nullify should trigger at all. Here's why:
- Nullify only works during the Counter Spell Step of casting an enchant or incantation.
- There's no such thing as a Counter Spell Step to revealing an enchantment.
- Therefore, nullify should not trigger at all.

I think you are correct in your assumptions. E. Transfusion targets during the resolution and since the wording on Nullify clearly say the counter spell step I am betting that it slides right by nullify.

I can see how one would argue that nullify could prevent E. Transfusion because E. Transfusion says "to one legal target". However, I think this is inaccurate because nullify does not prevent you from being a target of spells so the legality is never in question.

In short, if E. Transfusion had "2 creatures" in it's target bar then nullify could stop it. Since is does not, it can not be countered because it never gives nullify a chance to counter.


Alex319

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Re: Enchantment Transfusion and Nullify
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2013, 10:34:43 PM »
And not only that, Enchantment Transfusion doesn't even have its effect when you cast it. Its "move an enchantment" ability is an "on reveal" effect. When you reveal the Enchantment Transfusion and move enchantments around, you aren't even casting a spell at that time, so there's nothing for Nullify to counter.

sIKE

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Re: Enchantment Transfusion and Nullify
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2013, 09:05:53 AM »
Just for the sake of clarity, if the target of the Transfusion had a hidden Nullify on it, it would then work.
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Alex319

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Re: Enchantment Transfusion and Nullify
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2013, 06:45:39 PM »
That is true, assuming that by "target of the Transfusion" you mean the creature the Transfusion is being cast on (at the time the Transfusion is being cast), NOT the creature that you move the enchantments to when the Transfusion is revealed.