January 15, 2021, 12:14:49 pm

Author Topic: The push-rush strategy or how to win in round 3!  (Read 10090 times)

Fentum

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Re: The push-rush strategy or how to win in round 3!
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2013, 07:40:32 am »
It takes a 2x strength "Force Push" to enact this 10 dice Wall of Thorns event.

Jetstream is default strength push. Our group already plays it as not enough push, but I've sought out official ruling on the Mage Wars Facebook page.

If Jetstream gets DmgDice *and* a 2x strength push, then Jetstream is broken.

Hi Werner,

Sorry, but I don't understand this point. What is 2x strength?


ringkichard

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Re: The push-rush strategy or how to win in round 3!
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2013, 11:17:36 am »
Werner, if I understand your metaphor correctly, Jetstream is the default strength push, and Force Push is a half strength push. You don't need to spend extra mana on a push through a damage barrier unless the card says so, like on Force Push.
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werner

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Re: The push-rush strategy or how to win in round 3!
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2013, 12:10:40 pm »
Werner, if I understand your metaphor correctly, Jetstream is the default strength push, and Force Push is a half strength push. You don't need to spend extra mana on a push through a damage barrier unless the card says so, like on Force Push.

not exactly.

Arena Wall:
3-cost Force Push [3-Die bashes] the target against the arena wall.
4-cost Jet Stream may [3-Die bash] the target against the arena wall.

So there are the exact same strength of "push."

Thorn Wall:
3-cost Force Push does zero damage; as Errata released states that P.A. walls do not bash.
6-cost Force Push does (2;2;2;2;2)-die damage from Thorns.
4-cost Jet Stream does (2)~(2;2;2;2;2)-die damage from Thorns and ~daze.

(~ = @chance)

So you're wrong about half-str. Jetstream may do a double strength push at a premium. And it's actually broken compared to Mage War's own pricing schema.

And if I were to get metaphorical (I was speaking about math), I would remind you all that a wall of thorns would actually help protect you from strong winds.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2013, 12:14:56 pm by werner »

Fentum

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Re: The push-rush strategy or how to win in round 3!
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2013, 12:39:37 pm »
It's barbecue and beer weather in the UK. I would be thankful for anything that will protect me from strong wind. Man, that lager is gassy.

DeckBuilder

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Re: The push-rush strategy or how to win in round 3!
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2013, 07:03:01 pm »
Ha ha Fentum, u make me laugh. U should have seen my local Brighton beach in this heatwave.

@ Werner

I think "broken" is a very strong word that players should be reluctant to use. Even when calling for Temple of Light (a far stronger spell) to be made Epic, I never used that over-used word. Because "broken" is a damning indictment on the game itself (and can be damaging).

Jet stream is definitely stronger than it looks because of wall bashes and passage attacks. But most significant targets have at least armour 2 so attack 2 dice with 3 dice wall bash is severely blunted.

My main issue with Jet Stream is the 75% non-certain push is always directly away (only choice when diagonal). So it is good for a ranged specialist mage like an air wizard.

Force Push is a subtle utility spell for a chess player. I have used it to distance awake a sleeping creature iwith a 3 dice wall bash, move myself out of swarm hindrance to cheetah speed escape, nudge a slow creature out of position and, in melee builds, to lure an activated target 1 closer to be in reach of my attackers, moving it away from guards. It is not a "push" but the equivalent of D&D 4E's "slide".

I think most of my spell books now have Force Push in instead of Jet Stream. (Exceptions are ranged fortress Priestess who wants to push enemy away from intervening Poison Gas and the air wizard trained in Jet Stream and Teleport). My first ever Beastmaster started with Jet Stream + Wall of Thorns. Someone on BGG (padawan or scott douglas) suggested Force Push was better. I arrogantly ignored it. But he was right and I switched to 3x Force Push. This is after constantly using Teleport for 1 and realising I was wasting spell points.

In short, Force Push is a very versatile subtle spell. In this example, it allows a mage to slide a target sideways through a wall of thorns (or Hugrinn can pull the target towards it as LOS is not blocked). Both spells have their positives. While Jet Stream can situationally do far more damage (e.g. flyer by the arena wall or Whirling Spirit), I prefer the versatility that the 6 spell points I pay for 3x Force Push gives me. I think this subtlety vs. brute force preference is a question of personal play style and I wouldn't be critical of any who prefer the opposite.

But the humble Jet Stream is not "broken".
« Last Edit: July 14, 2013, 07:27:19 pm by DeckBuilder »
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werner

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Re: The push-rush strategy or how to win in round 3!
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2013, 09:39:13 pm »

please know I don't mean "overpowered." I mean that its efficiency is off the chart. If you use apply the same mana-formula that all cards seem to adhere to, this 6-cost worth of push for 4-cost + the attack dice and daze doesn't fit... hence broken. I only meant the COST advantage is broken. So broken that if you include Wall of Thorns, you almost automatically need to include Jetstream.

"strange" a better word?

Granted, too fuzzy to win you games outright... I'm only talking about ROI.


nitrodavid

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Re: The push-rush strategy or how to win in round 3!
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2013, 10:37:05 pm »
strange is a better word because you only get that efficiency when all the following conditions are met
1. wall of thorns placed
2. jet stream lvl 6 non flying creature
3. no ranged defence on creature
4. no imovability
5. no armour

not saying it still won't be good against a lower lvl creature with armour just it will have an average to below average efficiency.

 from my excel.
for 1 wall and 1 push to mage (lvl 6) you have. 75% push chance gives

9.5/9 damage/mana efficiency (0 armour)
(9.5, 7.4, 5.2, 4.8)/9 for armour (0,1,2,3+)

9.5/9 is approx as efficient as the current most efficent spell damage (flame blast  5.3/5 damage/mana efficiency)
but flame blast has better efficiency from 1+ armour.

 now if you consider the cases for lower lvl monsters the efficiency drops drastically, most attack spells beat it in efficiency from lvl 5 down. (or 6 with 2 armour).

now consider you can push them twice.

that gives
1.46, 1.13, 0.8 DME for lvl 6 0,1,2 armour. 1.2 DME lvl 5 0 armour
1 DME lvl 4 0 armour

so if you can jet stream twice while wall is still up you do get enough efficiency to warrent its use on creatures lvl 4-6 and even lvl 6 creatures with 2 armour.

then finally if you can push more then twice jet stream is the most efficient and alternatively if you use it on lower lvl or more armour you have average to worst efficiency
Being Aussie we place all our cards face down, apart from enchantments which are face up

ringkichard

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Re: The push-rush strategy or how to win in round 3!
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2013, 11:25:41 pm »
Dave, in your spreadsheet, are you doing permutations/combinations, monte-carlo, or brute tree solving?
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nitrodavid

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Re: The push-rush strategy or how to win in round 3!
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2013, 01:24:58 am »
I am not a programmer only an engineer so I'm not exactly sure what my method is classified as.

 in this particular attack spell damage calculator I have all the attack spells and how much damage they do to a generic target with a arbitrary armour value.
then accounting for bonus damage through flame.
then I add there versatility by adding daze/stun values. this is a very simple one.
then a simple comparison to there mana cost to find the efficiency.

I believe my biggest one "battle simulator" would be classified as a brute tree because all 53 creatures vs each other (53x53 battle calculations)
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ringkichard

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Re: The push-rush strategy or how to win in round 3!
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2013, 07:39:41 am »
I'm no programmer either, just a hobbyist.
What I mean is, how are you calculating the probability (for example) of doing 5 damage with 6 dice against 1 armor?

I'm using a brute force solution, but it's ugly. I have 6 long columns. The first just repeats the numbers 1-6, over and over again. The second is the number 1 repeated six times, then the number 2 six times, etc. The third is 36 ones, then 36 twos, and so on. The final column starts with 6^5 ones, and continues as the others do. In this way, I get all 6^6 combinations, then I just do calculations on them.

It's an ugly kluge, and I've been meaning to do do it the proper way. Excel does not like handling such data.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 09:03:34 am by ringkichard »
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cbalian

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Re: The push-rush strategy or how to win in round 3!
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2013, 08:05:23 am »
I've been wanting to find a reason to at least try weaving some walls into play.  So far haven't used them much at all.  Think I will give them a shot, even with a modified form of this seems like a fun "side" strategy, although I wouldn't rely on it for a win.

Fentum

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Re: The push-rush strategy or how to win in round 3!
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2013, 03:15:37 pm »
I've been wanting to find a reason to at least try weaving some walls into play.  So far haven't used them much at all.  Think I will give them a shot, even with a modified form of this seems like a fun "side" strategy, although I wouldn't rely on it for a win.

I have certainly found that a Wall of Thorns plus Force Push can really hamper an unwary opponent. Charmyna pulls a nice move with an additional Jet Stream from a Wizard's Tower.

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Re: The push-rush strategy or how to win in round 3!
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2013, 06:11:38 pm »
I used a brute force to calculate my "ideal dice roll" where I did a method similar to you brute force (19683 rows). it outputs a 20x10 table (1-20 dice, 0-9 armour).
this is a big file so I just refer all my other sheets to the value on this instead of copying it.
although for simplicity you can just assume 1 armour reduced damage by 0.5 until 1/2 dice number and get 99% accuracy.
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Re: The push-rush strategy or how to win in round 3!
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2013, 06:44:00 pm »
I have certainly found that a Wall of Thorns plus Force Push can really hamper an unwary opponent. Charmyna pulls a nice move with an additional Jet Stream from a Wizard's Tower.

It can be also due to action starvation on the mages part. Played a game with him today. I went agro on him before he could drop a bunch of hands, charged (and hadn't suited up with the Haubrek) and got him up to 26 damage. He then dropped the Wall of Thorns and pushed me through with the wall and then attacked me with the buffed Angels and then used his QC to cast another push (basically 0 to 30 damage in one round). I could of survived this onslaught as he was only 6 points away from death, but it was going into his initiative phase. Game over....I really don't like that move.

After playing a good dozen games with him I am really learning to appreciate the action advantage that ToL + Wizards Tower generates. Once he gets out the Angel + BG he has five Actions (3 of which can be performed concurrently in the round and add in the Melee buffs from the HoBs) typically board control and he then starts eating you up the old fashioned way, one bite at a time. He then just hangs back with the Wizard and drops Ballista's in open spots working you into a corner. Then he opens up the Can of Whoop Arse and punishes you with buffed BG's that Battle Furried. Game Over.

Quite a dammed tough build.
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