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Author Topic: Restrained creatures with intercept  (Read 5794 times)

ringkichard

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Restrained creatures with intercept
« on: July 11, 2013, 10:37:11 pm »
My Warlord shares a zone with a Dwarf Panzergarde I control. The Dwarf is guarding.
My opponent plays a Tanglevine on my Dwarf.
My opponent then makes a ranged attack targeting my Warlord.

May my Panzergarde use its Intercept ability? Will it be able to redirect the ranged attack to itself?

Intercept's Codex entry says:
"Intercept: If this creature is guarding, and if a ranged attack targets a non-flying object in the same zone, this creature may redirect that ranged attack to itself, as long as it can be a legal target for that attack. The intercept is announced and occurs immediately after the Declare Attack Step (and before the Avoid Attack Step). It loses its guard marker at the end of the attack which it intercepts. Cannot intercept a zone attack."

Guard's Rulebook entry says:
"Guarding has 2 benefits:
• Counterstrike: As long as the creature is guarding, all of its quick melee attacks gain the Counterstrike trait.
• Protect the Zone: If a creature is in a zone with one or more enemies with guard markers (except for guards
he can ignore; see sidebar), that creature cannot make a melee attack against any object without a guard marker.

Important:Spells and other ranged attacks always ignore guards! Also, a creature may always attack itself, or an object attached to itself, ignoring all guards."

The Ignoring Guards sidebar in the Rulebook says:
Restrained Guards: A guard that is Restrained cannot protect its zone, and can be ignored by any attacker.
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Cosworth

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Re: Restrained creatures with intercept
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2013, 11:10:34 pm »
The "ignoring guards" sidebar is the answer. Being restrained means the dwarf cannot guard and can't intercept a ranged attack. It takes freedom of movement to throw yourself in front of an arrows path.

ringkichard

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Re: Restrained creatures with intercept
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2013, 01:21:00 am »
You're right that the ranged attacker can ignore the Dwarf. All ranged attacks ignore guards anyway, restrained or not.

Quote from: The Rules, p 22
If you are making a ranged attack, the target must be in range of the attack. A  ranged attack ignores guards. All ranged attacks have a minimum and a maximum range. The target must be in a zone that falls within that range (see “Counting Distances” on page 10). Also, a ranged attack must make sure it has a clear LoS (line of sight) - see “Line of Sight”

A restrained creature can guard, though. It still gets the guard marker. And if you chose to melee attack a restrained guard, it still gets the counterstrike. Other creatures are just allowed to ignore it when chosing melee targets.

The sidebar says that the guarding creature can't use the "Protect the Zone" ability, and therefore the attacker, can "make a melee attack against any object without a guard marker." It doesn't say anything about Intercept, or redirecting a ranged attack. Intercept does not force the attacker to declare his attack at the Dwarf; it's not a taunt effect. Instead, it redirects an attack made against the Warlord so that it hits the Dwarf instead; it's like Reverse Attack.

As far as I can tell, a creature with intercept must be guarding to use its redirect ability, and it loses its guard marker after it uses its redirect ability, but the redirect ability is not a use of the guard ability. It is a use of the Intercept ability, and Intercept does not fail when the creature is restrained anywhere I can see.

I understand that the metaphor is weird. A creature that is tied to the earth shouldn't be able to leap in-front of an arrow, but I don't see support for this in the black-letter rules.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 01:38:21 am by ringkichard »
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nitrodavid

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Re: Restrained creatures with intercept
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2013, 01:53:31 am »
restrained (codex, p43)
"...the only advantage a restrained guard receives is counter strike....."

as intercept is an advantage of guard it is not given when restrained.
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ringkichard

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Re: Restrained creatures with intercept
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2013, 03:53:10 am »
"...the only advantage a restrained guard receives is counter strike....."
Yeah, that part's tricky. The other day, I saw someone get caught up on that text; he thought it meant that all restrained creatures got counter strike. :) So that sentence has come up on the forums before.

I read it as explanation of which parts of the guard rule a guarding creature gets, not a blanket rule forbidding any benefit from guarding, but I can see how it might be read as a limiting rule.

Basically, I read that section as saying, "When you guard, you get to force attacks to the guards (protect your zone), and you get to counter strike. Unless you're restrained, then you only get to counter strike." But, again, I understand that this may be the softest part of my argument.

What I think is more robust, though, is that I don't think that intercept actually IS an advantage of guard. Intercept is its own ability that relies on it's own ability word, it's own codex rules, and a guard marker (which we both agree is present on a restrained guard), but doesn't actually depend on ANY of the other rules for Guard. Guard could be a blank and useless rule, and as long as it put a marker on the Dwarf, I think Intercept would still work. If there was some other way to put a guard marker on a creature without using the guard ability, Intercept would work with that, too.

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jacksmack

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Re: Restrained creatures with intercept
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2013, 05:23:10 am »
Give official answer for this.....

With the current wording intercept still works while the guard is restrained which is a big joke.

The whole meaning lying behind the word "intercept" screams to the heavens that it would not be possible to use this ability while sinking down in Quicksand...

Shad0w

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Re: Restrained creatures with intercept
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2013, 09:07:20 am »

The Ignoring Guards sidebar in the Rulebook says:
Restrained Guards: A guard that is Restrained cannot protect its zone, and can be ignored by any attacker.

Can't > Can
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ringkichard

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Re: Restrained creatures with intercept
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2013, 11:54:30 am »
What do you mean, exactly? I don't see how this is a case of "Can't" trumping "Can". We agree that the Dwarf can't Protect the Zone.

Protecting the Zone is one of the two specific abilities granted by Guard. The other is Counterstrike.
I don't think there's any question that a restrained creature loses PtZ.

Quote
"Guarding has 2 benefits:
• Counterstrike: As long as the creature is guarding, all of its quick melee attacks gain the Counterstrike trait.
• Protect the Zone: If a creature is in a zone with one or more enemies with guard markers (except for guards
he can ignore; see sidebar), that creature cannot make a melee attack against any object without a guard marker.

Protect the Zone is a melee rule. The issue here is that Intercept does not require the Protect the Zone rule, only a guard marker.

---

I should say that from a design and play perspective, I would support an errata that turned off intercept if the creature was restrained or could not otherwise Protect the Zone. Judging from Shad0w's reaction, Intercept wasn't intended to work if the Dwarf is restrained.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 12:03:17 pm by ringkichard »
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Re: Restrained creatures with intercept
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2013, 01:14:47 pm »
A restrained creature that is guarding can still intercept. (As long as it is a legal target)

Restraining a creature does not remove guard, nor does it stop the counter strike if it is attacked, nor does it stop intercept.

Restraining only stops the "Protecting of its zone" so attackers may ignore them.
Incapacitate is the only condition to remove a guard marker.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 01:23:32 pm by DarthDadaD20 »
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sIKE

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Re: Restrained creatures with intercept
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2013, 01:22:31 pm »
But it does allow the attacking creature to ignore the guarding creature. Intercept is an explicit (and expanded) function of Guarding (as far as I can tell). How can the Dwarf jump in front of the bolt from the Ballista with his shield if he is restrained?
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Re: Restrained creatures with intercept
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2013, 01:27:13 pm »
Intercept is not guard, and does not act in the same way. It only uses guard as a sort of "Activation"

If you are looking for a thematic reason...the creature draws the spell to them. (Maybe the dwarfs shield is a magic shield of Redirect...

Looking at the rules, there is nothing preventing a restrained guard from using intercept.

I see what you are saying sIKE, and it makes sence but that is my best interpretation of how it is stated in the rules. And how it has been for my games.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 01:29:45 pm by DarthDadaD20 »
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sIKE

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Re: Restrained creatures with intercept
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2013, 01:46:06 pm »
Ok I am interested..

From the rules:

If this creature is guarding, and if a ranged attack....

No guarding no Intercept.

It looses its guard marker at the end of the attack which it intercepts.

After the Intercept, not "on guard" any longer.

"Intercept is not guard, and does not act in the same way.  It only uses guard as a sort of "Activation""

So you play it as if it were not an "enhanced" feature of guarding? Then why do I have to remove the guard token if it is just there for "activation"?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 01:52:34 pm by sIKE »
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Re: Restrained creatures with intercept
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2013, 01:50:46 pm »
If intercept is counted as "Protecting your zone", then it would bypass it. But as of right now, I see nothing that is stopping intercept.

It sounds like (In the rules) that Intercept "Actively" changes the target of the spell. And I don't see Restrained changing that.

Guard is part of the Attack Order, and does "not actively" change the target, you just have to look for guards (As stated in Step 1 of Attack Order).
I think a little clarification would go a long way here. I could be wrong here.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 01:56:44 pm by DarthDadaD20 »
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DarthDadaD20

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Re: Restrained creatures with intercept
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2013, 01:59:48 pm »


So you play it as if it were not an "enhanced" feature of guarding? Then why do I have to remove the guard token if it is just there for "activation"?

What I was trying to say is that it is different from guard, but uses it.
Obviously it is different from guard since you can Intercept Non-area ranged attacks. But I was trying to make it clear that it is different. It is its own thing.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 02:25:53 pm by DarthDadaD20 »
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
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sIKE

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Re: Restrained creatures with intercept
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2013, 02:08:16 pm »
To remove any ambiguity:


Intercept
If this creature is guarding, and if a ranged attack targets a non-flying object in the same zone, this creature may redirect that ranged attack to itself, as long as it can be a legal target for that attack. The intercept is announced and occurs immediately after the Declare Attack Step (and before the Avoid Attack Step). It loses its guard marker at the end of the attack which it intercepts. Cannot intercept a zone attack.

Restrained Guards: A guard that is Restrained cannot protect its zone, and can be ignored by any
attacker.

So the question is: Is Intercept a function of Guard or not. I can see it going to both ways, as they are both "Traits" which exist independently from each other. But this Trait appears to depend upon the other trait, the question is how much of the Guard Trait affects the Intercept Trait.

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