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Author Topic: How to take care of time wasting on purpose in tournaments?  (Read 4252 times)

Charmyna

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How to take care of time wasting on purpose in tournaments?
« on: August 02, 2013, 12:14:59 AM »
Regardless of the type of tie breaker there will often be situations in which one mage or the other profits from wasting time. I can imagine that in a couple of games wasting time will make the difference between win and loss since a mage that will surely loose the game if it proceeds till the end normally still can win a tie breaker.
So, how will wasting time on purpose be handled?

Moonglow

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Re: How to take care of time wasting on purpose in tournaments?
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2013, 02:37:55 AM »
Interesting question, at first I thought let it go. I mean shouldn't the other player be putting on more pressure or attacks to shift the balance and make it unprofitable to delay. But then I thought of the worst case scenario of someone getting an early HP lead and then thinking over their spells for the next hour. There wouldn't be anything the other make could do an it'd definitely feel unfair.

Fentum

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Re: How to take care of time wasting on purpose in tournaments?
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2013, 03:28:03 AM »

If the tournament happened to be taking place in, or around, Dundee, Scotland, then the correct approach to deal with such an abhorrent issue would be to

'Gie thon gadgie cheel a skelp in thi puss, min.'


Kingslayer

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Re: How to take care of time wasting on purpose in tournaments?
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2013, 05:21:09 AM »
A possible solution could be a round timer, as much as you'd like to think that everyone played fairly but it would eliminate the opportunity to waste too much time

Moonglow

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Re: How to take care of time wasting on purpose in tournaments?
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2013, 05:30:47 AM »

If the tournament happened to be taking place in, or around, Dundee, Scotland, then the correct approach to deal with such an abhorrent issue would be to

'Gie thon gadgie cheel a skelp in thi puss, min.'


Yah might need to translate :)

Moonglow

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Re: How to take care of time wasting on purpose in tournaments?
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2013, 05:32:06 AM »
I've wondered a bit around a chess clock,  and like the idea of timed games,  but can't work out how you'd manage the joint  spell selection time.

A possible solution could be a round timer, as much as you'd like to think that everyone played fairly but it would eliminate the opportunity to waste too much time

Kingslayer

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Re: How to take care of time wasting on purpose in tournaments?
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2013, 05:38:53 AM »
Maybe there could be a modified chess-style clock. Where there's a set maximum time for spellbook selction, then a different time limit for each full action?

Moonglow

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Re: How to take care of time wasting on purpose in tournaments?
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2013, 05:52:59 AM »
Chess clocks are cool cause one person's timer kicks in when the others is stopped. I guess you could work it with a chess clock that could be paused (ie no one's time is progressing) and having a set selection timer, like a five minute hour glass.

 In combination then you could give an hour to spell selection in a maximum of five min blocks (which seems a crazy long time)  and a set 30 min each for movements.


Maybe there could be a modified chess-style clock. Where there's a set maximum time for spellbook selction, then a different time limit for each full action?

Kingslayer

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Re: How to take care of time wasting on purpose in tournaments?
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2013, 06:14:52 AM »
Alternatively, perhaps there could just be time limits applied to each section of play. Maybe 3mins spellbook selection, and 30 seconds to declare an attack. Possible punishments for not keeping up with the clock could be:
- your opponent can turn one of your action markers from active to inactive
- failing to select spells in time leaves you unable to cast prepared spells for the round
- running out of time results in your mage being stunned
- channeling is reduced by one permanently
- channeling is reduced by 50% for the next channeling phase

ringkichard

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Re: How to take care of time wasting on purpose in tournaments?
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2013, 07:54:22 AM »
Spell selection shouldn't take longer than two minutes in a timed tournament game, and should usually be done in one. If it's taking longer than that (wear a watch), mention it politely to your opponent once or twice, then call over a judge.

Escalating punishments should be: warning, game loss, DQ.
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piousflea

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Re: How to take care of time wasting on purpose in tournaments?
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2013, 04:01:48 PM »
Chess timers would be ideal IMO. 2 minutes for spell selection and 30 seconds per activation seem reasonable.

Moonglow

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Re: How to take care of time wasting on purpose in tournaments?
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2013, 04:47:08 PM »
As above, chess clocks don't do 'joint time'. They are your time and my time and don't do segments. I get 30 min all up (for example)  you get the same time. I can use my 30 min in any way I like, five seconds here, ten minutes there. I can't however just go time out guys..Or ok lets both think.


Chess timers would be ideal IMO. 2 minutes for spell selection and 30 seconds per activation seem reasonable.

Moonglow

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Re: How to take care of time wasting on purpose in tournaments?
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2013, 04:57:24 PM »
On the other hand, I agree something like a chess timer would be ideal. Just browsing to see if there are any android or digital game clocks that fit the bill.

Most dont seem to.  I found a couple that had a pause function.  So with another timer, you could have individual player time ad shared time for spell selection.

Just thinking about it though.  Is it a workable solution?  I mean I take 5 seconds to announce I'm attacking you.  You then announce your counteres and defenses and stuff, roll defence dice, I've got to get the red dice you were holding from your last turn. you have to (hopefully) find the right damage and status tokens, perhaps fiddle around with moving cards and stuff...

I sort of feel on reflection that theres too much interaction on any one person's turn to say that 'this is your time this is mine' in the same way you might in chess.  At the least youd need a much more complex timer that allows players to contemplate their movements on personal time, then pauses to allow for some of the shared administration and card selection.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 05:30:34 PM by Moonglow »

Charmyna

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Re: How to take care of time wasting on purpose in tournaments?
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2013, 06:03:26 AM »
I think some sort of chess clock is a good idea in general.
The implementation should be easy to use and give the players enough time to think but still punish time delay on purpose. It might be difficult to determine a fixed maximum time that is fair. A fixed maximum time also has the downside that at some point a player could foresee that his time will not run out for sure even if he delays on purpose.
So what you think about the following: At the end of the game, if both mages are still alive, the time difference between both players is converted into total amount of damage dealt (need testing for ratio, maybe 2 min=1 damage). The player with the highest total damage dealt wins. If the tie is still not broken, the player with the least time used wins.

For the implementation of the chess timer, I suggest this:
The timer is paused during all phases of the game, unless noted otherwise. In the planning phase, the first player who puts his planned cards on the table starts the timer of the opponent (he cannot switch his prepared cards from now on!). The opponent pauses the timer as soon as he is done with his planning.
In the first quick cast phase, the player who does not have initiative starts the timer of his opponent. If the player with initiative is done with the QC phase, he starts the timer of his opponent. From now on for the whole action phase and final QC phase the timer runs for the player who has turn. After the final QC phase is done, the timer is paused again.

This implementation gives the player with the least amount of time used an advantage in the tie break, which is fair IMO and doesnt favor specific builds. This will also allow to break a tie even if both mages did no damage (e.g. a mana denial build vs mana denial build).
You can say that the use of the chess clock disturbs the game experience, but IMO if this game is going to be a tournament focused game some sort of time control is needed! The player who needs less time to find good actions (who often is the more experienced player) should be rewarded in a tie breaker.

Just thinking about it though.  Is it a workable solution?  I mean I take 5 seconds to announce I'm attacking you.  You then announce your counteres and defenses and stuff, roll defence dice, I've got to get the red dice you were holding from your last turn. you have to (hopefully) find the right damage and status tokens, perhaps fiddle around with moving cards and stuff...

I sort of feel on reflection that theres too much interaction on any one person's turn to say that 'this is your time this is mine' in the same way you might in chess.  At the least youd need a much more complex timer that allows players to contemplate their movements on personal time, then pauses to allow for some of the shared administration and card selection.

You got a good point here, maybe the timer should be paused during the action phase in general. Only if one player doesnt react soon because he is thinking (e.g. thinking if he should use a defence), his opponent is allowed to start the timer till that player decided what to do. The same applies if a player starts thinking about which creature to activate or to use his QC marker before activation. Lets say, as soon as a player does not declare some kind of action/reaction after 2 seconds, his opponent has the right to start the clock.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 06:19:39 AM by Charmyna »

sIKE

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Re: How to take care of time wasting on purpose in tournaments?
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2013, 09:21:02 AM »
I wouldn't time 75% of the beginning of the match, just the last 25%. So if it 60 minutes for match, the last 15 would be timed.
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