July 26, 2021, 01:41:55 PM

Author Topic: 2 more: Chain lightning and Intervene + Whirling spirit vs Guard  (Read 6580 times)

jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1073
  • Banana Stickers 19
    • View Profile
Chain lightning vs Intervene:

Wizard casts chainlightning one zone away and wants to hit 2 targets in the zone.

The Dwarfen panzterbro on guard (he can intervene).
Bridge troll.

Scenario 1:
Wizard targets Bridge troll with first chain hit. Panzterbro Redirects the ranged attack to himself (intervene when guarding).

A)
Wizard can target bridge troll again on the second hit of Chain lightning because first hit never actually ended up targetting / hitting troll.

B)
Wizard can target Pantzerbro on second hit because he havent TARGETTED him before - the guy just intervened taking the bullet. ending up hitting panzterbro twice

C)
The Wizard cannot target either because he targetted the troll already on first hit, and he damaged the panzterbro on first hit so both are now illegal targets for a second hit


Scenario 2:
The wizard Targets Panzterbro who is on guard with first hit (we assume he does NOT get stunned).
Second hit goes to troll and Panzterbro wishes to Intervene

A)
Panzterbro cannot intervene because chainlightning can only hit / target each target once.

B)
Panzterbro CAN intervene but he will not take damage from the second hit of chainlightning because he took damage from the first hit and chain can only damage each target once.

C)
Panzterbro intervenes and takes damage from both first and second hit of chain lightning.



Whirling spirit attacks a guard and succeds the push roll. Will the guard get the counter strike or not?


And yes... im building an Air Wizard ;)

Edit:
I guess that the whirling spirit is close to the same as lightning attack melee'ers (angel). If they land a daze / stun when attacking will the counter striking creature be affected so it either has to roll a daze check or get stunned and cannot counterstrike.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 05:41:35 AM by jacksmack »

Tacullu64

  • Sr. Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 418
  • Banana Stickers 10
    • View Profile
Re: 2 more: Chain lightning and Intervene + Whirling spirit vs Guard
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2013, 09:14:07 AM »
Chain lightening scenario 1 is option A.

Chain lightening scenario 2 is option C. He should still have his guard marker since he didn't intervene and wasn't melee attacked. Since Reverse Attack can cause a creature to be struck by CL more than once I would say so can intervene.

The guard does not get the counter attack. The push effect happens in attack step 4, by the time the counterstrike would occur the WS is no longer a legal target.

Stormmaster

  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 140
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: 2 more: Chain lightning and Intervene + Whirling spirit vs Guard
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2013, 09:25:04 AM »
hmm I would think the guard could make a counter attack since the counter attack is declared at the time they are attacked (which presumably would be before they are pushed)?  It doesn't seem right that they would only get the choice to counter (or be denied that option) after they are pushed.  I could be reading it wrong though.

P.27 Step 7
If the attacker made a melee attack on the defender, and the
defender has a quick melee attack with the Counterstrike
trait, the defender may choose to counterstrike the attacker at
this time
. This is a “free” quick melee attack against the attacker.
The defender may counterstrike, even if the attacker’s attack
was not “successful” (did not roll dice because it missed or
was avoided).
The counterstrike attack is resolved like a normal attack,
starting with Step 1: Declare Attack, except that no
additional counterstrikes occur.

Tacullu64

  • Sr. Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 418
  • Banana Stickers 10
    • View Profile
Re: 2 more: Chain lightning and Intervene + Whirling spirit vs Guard
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2013, 09:41:55 AM »
hmm I would think the guard could make a counter attack since the counter attack is declared at the time they are attacked (which presumably would be before they are pushed)?  It doesn't seem right that they would only get the choice to counter (or be denied that option) after they are pushed.  I could be reading it wrong though.

P.27 Step 7
If the attacker made a melee attack on the defender, and the
defender has a quick melee attack with the Counterstrike
trait, the defender may choose to counterstrike the attacker at
this time
. This is a “free” quick melee attack against the attacker.
The defender may counterstrike, even if the attacker’s attack
was not “successful” (did not roll dice because it missed or
was avoided).
The counterstrike attack is resolved like a normal attack,
starting with Step 1: Declare Attack, except that no
additional counterstrikes occur.
The push effect occurs in step 4, by step 7 the counter attacker is no longer in range.

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: 2 more: Chain lightning and Intervene + Whirling spirit vs Guard
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2013, 11:14:22 AM »
Chain Lightning is a Ranged Attack....
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1073
  • Banana Stickers 19
    • View Profile
Re: 2 more: Chain lightning and Intervene + Whirling spirit vs Guard
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2013, 02:10:27 PM »
Chain Lightning is a Ranged Attack....

cool story bro... care to elaborate?

Moonglow

  • Sr. Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
Re: 2 more: Chain lightning and Intervene + Whirling spirit vs Guard
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2013, 02:33:29 PM »
Simple - from the rule book:

Step 7: Counterstrike
If the attacker made a melee attack on the defender....

Chainlightening isnt a melee attack, so Counterstrike doesnt kick in...

Chain Lightning is a Ranged Attack....

cool story bro... care to elaborate?

jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1073
  • Banana Stickers 19
    • View Profile
Re: 2 more: Chain lightning and Intervene + Whirling spirit vs Guard
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2013, 02:36:12 PM »
Simple - from the rule book:

Step 7: Counterstrike
If the attacker made a melee attack on the defender....

Chainlightening isnt a melee attack, so Counterstrike doesnt kick in...

Chain Lightning is a Ranged Attack....

cool story bro... care to elaborate?

Read OP Again... and then do it one more time :)

Stormmaster

  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 140
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: 2 more: Chain lightning and Intervene + Whirling spirit vs Guard
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2013, 02:38:46 PM »
I don't think that was their question.  The question about the counter attack was in reference to the Whirling Spirit which is a melee attack.  There are 2 separate questions in this thread.

1.  Chain Lighting/Intervene interaction (multiple target)
2.  Whirling Spirit vs Guard (counterattack)

So while it is true Chain Lightning is a ranged attack it doesn't pertain to the Whirling Spirit question.

Moonglow

  • Sr. Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
Re: 2 more: Chain lightning and Intervene + Whirling spirit vs Guard
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2013, 02:40:10 PM »
Ah yeah, remember thinking the same thing first time I read it and then realising that the counterstrike Q was about the Whirling Spirit, then got distracted by Sike's comment...


sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: 2 more: Chain lightning and Intervene + Whirling spirit vs Guard
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2013, 02:45:09 PM »
I got the two mixed up. However on the CL question. If the PG Intercepts and becomes the new target and the PG rolls for Defense successfully the CL dies there. If the Defense roll fails AND damage roll damages the PG then the CL can now target the Troll.

If the defender is Pushed into a new zone, he can not counter-strike has he now has no legal target to Melee with.
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

Stormmaster

  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 140
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: 2 more: Chain lightning and Intervene + Whirling spirit vs Guard
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2013, 07:43:46 AM »
Q1. I am assuming a Damage Shield would still do damage even if defender got pushed?  So the DS still does damage but the counterstrike wouldn't work? 

I guess I am still hung up on the working about the defender can choose to counter attack at time they are being attacked.  But I do understand the push and non viable target post push.  So not revisiting, just now clarifying the damage shield thing.

Main reason is I use the Whirling Spirits a lot with my Air Wizard deck.

Bonus question:
If a card doesn't say you have to pay extra to push things through walls (like pay 3 more etc) does that mean you can push through walls with passage attacks for free to get the wall damage.  So the Whirling Spirit can push someone through a wall, get the passage attacks and not pay any extra mana correct?

Wiz-Pig

  • Sr. Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 262
  • Banana Stickers 5
    • View Profile
Re: 2 more: Chain lightning and Intervene + Whirling spirit vs Guard
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2013, 07:53:28 AM »
Q1: I believe you are correct about the damage barrier still attacking. Even though it is in step 6, it only includes the roll dice and damage and effects steps and has very specific wording about the only ways it can be avoided.

Bonus Question: Yes that is correct, if a push effect doesn't mention any additional cost for pushing through a wall it doesn't have one.

jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1073
  • Banana Stickers 19
    • View Profile
Re: 2 more: Chain lightning and Intervene + Whirling spirit vs Guard
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2013, 07:58:25 AM »
Q1. I am assuming a Damage Shield would still do damage even if defender got pushed?  So the DS still does damage but the counterstrike wouldn't work? 

I guess I am still hung up on the working about the defender can choose to counter attack at time they are being attacked.  But I do understand the push and non viable target post push.  So not revisiting, just now clarifying the damage shield thing.

Main reason is I use the Whirling Spirits a lot with my Air Wizard deck.

Bonus question:
If a card doesn't say you have to pay extra to push things through walls (like pay 3 more etc) does that mean you can push through walls with passage attacks for free to get the wall damage.  So the Whirling Spirit can push someone through a wall, get the passage attacks and not pay any extra mana correct?


The damage barrier still goes off on the defending target even though whirling spirit succeeds push roll.
It obviously makes sense that the attack from WS goes through the damage barrier BEFORE it pushes the target.
However in order to keep things clean and because they dont feel that the attacker potentially could die or get stunned etc before landing the attack they made it so the damage barrier damage is applied AFTER. (remember that stun or daze from a damage barrier is NOT removed at the end of the current action phase of the attacking creature... it lasts 1 more round so it actually has an effect. - otherwise it would stay on the attacker for 5 seconds.)

The damager barrier do not work like the counter strike.  No checking for range etc - just roll dice.

The counter strike starts a new attack order starting with declare attack except that counterstrike (step 7) is not possible here. So you cannot counter strike a counter strike.

bonus question:
yes free push through attack traits if no cost is listed. This includes stuff like jetstream and whirling spirit amongst others.

Alex319

  • Jr. Mage
  • **
  • Posts: 74
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
Re: 2 more: Chain lightning and Intervene + Whirling spirit vs Guard
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2013, 07:43:40 PM »
The correct answers are as follows:

Scenario 1: When the Panzergarde redirects the attack to itself, from then on it is treated, for all intents and purposes, that the Panzergarde was the target. Thus, the second attack could target the Bridge Troll, but not the Panzergarde.

Scenario 2: The Panzergarde cannot Intercept the attack against the Bridge Troll, since the Panzergarde is not a legal target for that attack, and Intercept specifically states that a creature can only Intercept an attack if it is a legal target of that attack. The fact that Reverse Attack can override the "being an illegal target" is irrelevant to this scenario, because Reverse Attack is not a part of this scenario in any way.

Scenario 3 (the Whirling Spirit one): If the Whirling Spirit Pushes the target away, then the target will not be able to make a Counterstrike (unless the target can somehow get back into the Whirling Spirit's zone before the Counterstrike Step). This is because a Counterstrike must be a melee attack, which can only be performed by a creature in the same zone as the target. In contrast, the target could make a Damage Barrier attack, because Damage Barriers do not have a particular range, so they do not check range (they have their own rules about when you can make them, which still apply here.)