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Author Topic: Mage Wars played as a "Old school" TCG  (Read 6398 times)

DarthDadaD20

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Mage Wars played as a "Old school" TCG
« on: September 08, 2013, 08:07:47 AM »
(Also posted on BGG)

I was wondering if anyone besides me had taken their spell book, shuffled it, drew 7 cards, and played it like a TCG.

I did it once and it worked out really well actually. (This was not fleshed out or anything....just for funsies)

I played it more like MtG- Play as many creatures as you want (I.e No zones or circles) play enchantments on creatures that can be legal targets, play conjurations like you would an artifact in MtG. And ignoring any sort of range rules in the game.

But still keeping the stages and phases of Mage Wars. (like how activating monsters work)

The big rules different from MtG was- the attacking monster chooses his target for his attack.
(I was thinking about having "columns" so creatures could only attack the creature to the right,in front, or left of it, making range attacks stay powerful, and having moving from one column to the next be a move action...but I didn't ever get to play it that way)

Now obviously this game is in no way balanced by any means, but again...funsies.

So.....anyone have any good ideas for this style of play? Or has anyone else gave it a shot?

My game worked out well, but I played using the pre-build spellbooks.
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Re: Mage Wars played as a "Old school" TCG
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2013, 11:43:17 AM »
When you say "Old school" tcg, I assume you're meaning something like MtG. The thing is, that Mage Wars can't work old school. Try new school:

You could replace range with accuracy, so spells are most accurate when targeting objects within range. Different spells would have different accuracy rolls they have to get based on how "far away" the target is and how much accuracy the spell has. Some spells and attacks would be more accurate when the target is really far away, and some would be more accurate when the target is really close.

Then you would probably want to make all damage exact, rather than relying on dice rolls.

A lot of abilities would have to be reworked though, and some cards might have to be banned from the format. Elusive would probably have to be changed to something like, "ignores changes to opposing creatures' accuracy". Charge +x could be a way of increasing the power of an attack by lowering a creature's accuracy.

Also, I think instead of shuffling the deck and drawing seven cards, players should search the deck for 2 or 3 cards at the start of the game to be their starting hand, then instead of drawing from the top of the deck, they should be able to search their deck for any card during the planning phase to add to their hand. That way the rules about quick actions and full actions would work as normal. Each player would have separate turns. Some things could be done on either your or your opponent's turn, and other things would only be able to be done on your own turn.

Only your turn: full action attack spells, attacking with creatures, placing a guard marker (the rules for guarding would also have to be reworked a bit), casting equipment, casting facedown enchantments, summoning creatures, full action conjurations.

On either turn: incantations, revealing facedown enchantments, using an activated (ready marker) ability, rolling for evasion/accuracy, counterspells, effect rolls, quick action conjurations.

Also, decking out shouldn't cause you to lose automatically if you still have cards on the playing field.

I also wonder if it might be a good idea for this format to be restricted to "Apprentice mode Lv2", except with customizable decks. So 70 spellbook points, a choice of one out of two abilities for each mage, and certain predefined stats for each mage. That way the game-length would be the same as (or at least closer to) a tcg. It would be a smaller, more portable "travel-pack" version of mage wars.

http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=12920.0

I think it would be an extremely difficult long term project to constantly convert every new card and mechanic to work in this "TCG" format. Perhaps the cardpool for this format should always be at least one expansion behind, so that there's more time for playtesting. And I don't think it should be called a "TCG", since it's still not collectible, even though it would be played like one in the format. TCG-style, perhaps. Maybe this version of Mage Wars could be distinguished by calling it MM, or Mini-Mages.

I'm not sure about how this idea would be received though. Perhaps by having a TCG-style version of Mage Wars alongside the regular "Full" version, it would become clearer to people that regular Mage Wars is NOT a MtG derivative, especially when they notice that the cards are so much more affordable than MtG or any TCG for that matter. And since Mage Wars is being forced to compete with games that are nothing like it, such as MtG, perhaps this would have the effect of allowing Mage Wars to compete better, while at the same time highlighting what sets regular Mage Wars apart.
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DarthDadaD20

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Re: Mage Wars played as a "Old school" TCG
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2013, 01:03:33 PM »
All very good points and ideas!

I was just being silly one day and shuffled my build (This was when the Forcemaster Vs. Warlord came out) and my friend did the same and we played it by ear- Nothing I am too serious about- I was wondering if anyone else had done the same!  ;D

d
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
It has been around since the dawn of time,
it follows your loved ones as well as mine,
takes the form of a mountain as well as a flower,
it cannot be outrun by the greatest of power.
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
Within Shad0w.

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Re: Mage Wars played as a "Old school" TCG
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2013, 11:17:58 PM »
Yeah, I did this a few times just to test and see if it would actually be workable. It was... interesting, to say the least. I've never been "enchantment flooded" before.
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DarthDadaD20

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Re: Mage Wars played as a "Old school" TCG
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2013, 01:02:13 AM »
Ok- So I am not the only one!!!

Good.  :P
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
It has been around since the dawn of time,
it follows your loved ones as well as mine,
takes the form of a mountain as well as a flower,
it cannot be outrun by the greatest of power.
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
Within Shad0w.

The Dude

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Re: Mage Wars played as a "Old school" TCG
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2013, 01:10:20 AM »
I mean, it's hard to go from years of shuffle flicking in MTG to having only two cards in hand. It had to be tried at one point! :P
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Re: Mage Wars played as a "Old school" TCG
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2013, 02:30:26 AM »
I still chew my nails although I'm trying to quit, I'm not sure old habits is the best argument for screwing with a rule system.  Anyway, actually just wanted to say that you don't have only two cards in hand.  You start with the whole deck and pick two.  Thats a substantive and fundamental difference.  MTG is dumb and random, MW is your choice vs their choice, and that's what a game is about.


I mean, it's hard to go from years of shuffle flicking in MTG to having only two cards in hand. It had to be tried at one point! :P

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Re: Mage Wars played as a "Old school" TCG
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2013, 06:23:43 AM »
I sit there and shuffle those two cards like crazy- Its a thing you do in other card games so your opponent doesn't know your top decking position- (What you just drew) It becomes a habit when you get good enough to play the game subconsciously (Its a thing-look it up).

And its not so much screwing with the system because anyone thinks its a good idea- its just being dorky for the hell of it. (I suppose I could of posted this in "Off topic"
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
It has been around since the dawn of time,
it follows your loved ones as well as mine,
takes the form of a mountain as well as a flower,
it cannot be outrun by the greatest of power.
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
Within Shad0w.

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Re: Mage Wars played as a "Old school" TCG
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2013, 11:24:03 AM »
I still chew my nails although I'm trying to quit, I'm not sure old habits is the best argument for screwing with a rule system.  Anyway, actually just wanted to say that you don't have only two cards in hand.  You start with the whole deck and pick two.  Thats a substantive and fundamental difference.  MTG is dumb and random, MW is your choice vs their choice, and that's what a game is about.


I mean, it's hard to go from years of shuffle flicking in MTG to having only two cards in hand. It had to be tried at one point! :P

Argument?

And yes, I realize this, but if you play with a spellbook, at any given time, you should only be holding two single cards in your hand.

And I'm not sure why you would stoop to namecalling. If you don't like a game, at least have a decent reason. Although I'm not sure you can up with one in this thread, as Dada and I have played MTG pretty extensively :P Jus sayin'

@dada, I do the exact same thing with almost any card game I play anymore. I loathe people like Finkel that can sit with a full hand of cards and NOT flick them about.
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DarthDadaD20

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Re: Mage Wars played as a "Old school" TCG
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2013, 11:48:47 AM »
If you dont, you are giving away information to the opponent- I cant stand when someone draws and then plays that card right away-

I even pretend to read my Land cards......So you don't know that I just drew a land.

(If someone just draws a card and doent look at it....there is a good chance that it is a land)

Its things like that which make those games FAR more complex then people will ever realize. And you cant be taught that kind of "Mind Game" you have to become a good player for it to happen"

Like in Sealed- I ask people there pulls......AND THEY TELL ME!!! not only that, but they will tell me the kind of deck they build- People who have been playing as long as me. Crazy.

And he can have his opinions. I would move past it.   
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
It has been around since the dawn of time,
it follows your loved ones as well as mine,
takes the form of a mountain as well as a flower,
it cannot be outrun by the greatest of power.
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
Within Shad0w.

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Re: Mage Wars played as a "Old school" TCG
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2013, 12:00:52 PM »
Ahh, the ole "This swamp is INCREDIBLY interesting" trick. In current standard (and some fringe legacy), players have taken to the draw a card, lay it down beside them as they ponder their options. As if a miracled Bonfire for zero would do anything.

And yeah, I usually find that people who have either never played MTG or only played casually, tend to think of it a a complete luckfest and money drain than experienced players do. Sure, the game rewards luck, but it also rewards manipulation, clever deck building, and interesting logic trees.

I've had people tell me their bomb rares in draft AS THEY ARE BUILDING. Which, by the way, is a win win when drafting core sets :P
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Re: Mage Wars played as a "Old school" TCG
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2013, 03:18:18 PM »
Sorry, I did not notice this thread (how could I miss it?). It's not too old to necro (it's all the rage these days).

I have been wisely told (by Imaginator above) to post my mechanics below (from the Teaching Variant thread) as more relevant here.



Mage Wars The Gathering

1. There is no spellbook as this unique "advanced game" choice mechanic is what overwhelms new players, causing analysis paralysis.

2. Instead you have a deck of minimum 60 cards (thin decks are good, minimum size is an extra constraint to required 120 spell points).

3. New Planning phase: if you have less than 7 cards in hand, you draw until you have 7. First turn, you may reshuffle and redraw 7 once.

4. To use Deployment or Spellbind, you must have that appropriate card in hand. Cantrips can always be played from your discard pile.

5. Extra to Reset phase (not relevant in the first turn): you may place any number of cards in hand at the bottom of your deck in any order.



Unlike Dada's abstract battleground method (far more true to TCG or LCG), the game is played identical in every other way to Mage Wars. It was designed to simply constrain spell choice and add luck (for reasons given in the Teaching Variant thread).

However, the rules changes have huge repercussions. One of the key concepts is multiple copies that are needed with random draw and not with pick. This lack of toolbox versatility made me realise just how precise Mage Wars is compared to scattergun Magic, furthering my belief that once the card pool increases to comparable interaction options (Standard pool), Mage Wars will be indisputably more skillful.

During this lull eagerly waiting our next fix of Mage Wars, I have challenged an equally experienced player (so not very then) and we will both build a deck to to try this. So I will have feedback after this weekend.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 03:24:40 PM by DeckBuilder »
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Re: Mage Wars played as a "Old school" TCG
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2013, 03:25:26 PM »
You know drawing from a deck with normal MW rules might be very interesting..... :o

I know for years, I was trying to develop a magic the gathering miniatures game (A buddy got me a bunch of MtG minis from Japan- I STILL CANT FIND OUT WHAT THEY ARE FOR!?!?!)

Now I am thinking of combining MW and MtG just for the hell of it.

I am also thinking of making some Pokemon into Mage Wars cards....(Not pokemon cards- Mage wars cards that use pokemon as the inspiration....like having a pikachu with low life, no armor, fast trait- and having a Ranged lightning attack that does +2 to flyers....LET ME SHOW YOU MY POKEMONS!)
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
It has been around since the dawn of time,
it follows your loved ones as well as mine,
takes the form of a mountain as well as a flower,
it cannot be outrun by the greatest of power.
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
Within Shad0w.

DeckBuilder

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Re: Mage Wars played as a "Old school" TCG
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2013, 03:37:51 PM »
Nice idea about Pikachu skirmisher. Do it, you have the ability to influence design (jealous). Trap enchantments are so Pokemon already.

I think a cheap no attack creature that when killed transforms into a dangerous fiery Phoenix would be interesting. The guard they never want to damage (too much, don't make it too fragile, say 0 armour 7 life fire -2 to make it not too easy to zonal kill). Yeah, I've stolen Rukh Egg shamelessly there. Though my love of X-Men would make the hapless creature Holy and the Phoenix Dark (Legendary of course), even though it should be the first Fire creature we get.

Oh, so few truly original ideas, just variants that improve. Still, like us, a good idea matures and gets better with time. Or so I tell myself...
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 03:42:47 PM by DeckBuilder »
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Re: Mage Wars played as a "Old school" TCG
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2013, 05:38:08 PM »
You gave me an awesome idea for an alternate Shaman.

http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=13062.0
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