September 23, 2020, 08:38:20 PM

Author Topic: House Rules to retain realism (and some clarifications)  (Read 12652 times)

Kharhaz

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Re: House Rules to retain realism
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2013, 08:20:11 PM »

This brings up the issue of attachments perpetually targeting what it is attached to which people say is obvious but not explicit, Guardian Angel is on guard. I cast Tanglevine on her, she is Restrained so cannot guard others but can Counterstrike. In her action, she loses her guard marker and regains flying. Do you check Tanglevine's condition requirement again so that it slips off as an illegal target? The rules as they stand are easy to read but need more all encompassing rules (like static effects rules in other games) as well as clarity in places.


You are over thinking it.

Restrained targets lose and can not gain flying. As per rulebook pg 43.

Shad0w

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Re: House Rules to retain realism
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2013, 08:32:54 PM »
I would comment further but I have been asked at this point to only base rulings off the v2 book and the FAQ with the faq taking priority.
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DeckBuilder

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Re: House Rules to retain realism
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2013, 08:35:14 PM »
You are over thinking it.

Restrained targets lose and can not gain flying. As per rulebook pg 43.
Oh yeah. See, the rules do cover most eventualities. Like I said. (blush)

Of course. This was what happened when I experimented with Giant Wolf Spider (shame not an animal!) on a guarding Guardian Angel when that set first came out. She was stuck for ages. Hilarious.

[Wipes more egg off my face.] Meh, you scatter shot and you're bound to miss a few.
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DeckBuilder

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Re: House Rules to retain realism
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2013, 08:41:11 PM »
I would comment further but I have been asked at this point to only base rulings off the v2 book and the FAQ with the faq taking priority.

Is the v2 rulebook the one with Guarding on p29 and the Ignoring Guards sidebar beside it? That's what I based my original logic on.

So what is the ruling here? Cos even if the FAQ takes preference, it doesn't seem to shed any more light. Though it's really late over here so I may be just brain dead. I've been making silly errors all night (work deadline) so this would be par for the course.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 08:45:09 PM by DeckBuilder »
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Shad0w

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Re: House Rules to retain realism
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2013, 08:44:15 PM »
I do  not have time to pull all the passages into one post and make a ruling. I have some fam stuff to take care of this weekend. If somebody would be kind enough I will read it all and make a ruling this weekend
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lettucemode

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Re: House Rules to retain realism
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2013, 08:47:07 PM »
Thanks for your post, Deckbuilder. I don't own CoK yet so I didn't know about the wording on Intercept. I like your explanation of RAW vs. RAI.

If somebody would be kind enough I will read it all and make a ruling this weekend

If you mean the words from the rulebooks, I listed all three relevant passages from the v2 rulebook in an earlier post of mine in this thread. Linky: http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=13050.msg23372#msg23372
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 08:48:46 PM by lettucemode »

DeckBuilder

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Re: House Rules to retain realism
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2013, 08:51:55 PM »
Cor, you can link straight to a message, not just a thread URL! That's really neat! Another thing learnt...
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sIKE

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Re: House Rules to retain realism
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2013, 09:00:36 PM »
I do  not have time to pull all the passages into one post and make a ruling. I have some fam stuff to take care of this weekend. If somebody would be kind enough I will read it all and make a ruling this weekend

A creature may spend a quick action to guard. Place a guard marker on the creature. A guard will try to protect its zone from enemy attacks.

Guarding has 2 benefits:

• Counterstrike: As long as the creature is guarding, all of its quick melee attacks gain the Counterstrike trait.
• Protect the Zone: If a creature is in a zone with one or more enemies with guard markers (except for guards
he can ignore; see sidebar), that creature cannot make a melee attack against any object without a guard marker.

Important: Spells and other ranged attacks always ignore guards! Also, a creature may always attack itself, or an object attached to itself, ignoring all guards.

Only melee attacks are affected. If a guard is not melee attacked, it may retain its guard marker until the start of its next Action Phase. Guard markers are always removed at the beginning of a creature’s Action Phase.

Note: Attacking a guard has no effect on the guard’s action marker. If an active creature is on guard, it will still be active after the attack. This may allow a creature to attack twice in the same round: once with the guard counterstrike, then later during its own Action Phase.
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Shad0w

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Re: House Rules to retain realism
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2013, 09:02:18 PM »
@sike is from this the rule book v2?
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sIKE

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Re: House Rules to retain realism
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2013, 09:04:04 PM »
Yes you said only from V2 and the FAQ:

Here is the bit from the side bar:
Flying Creatures and Guards: Guards affect a flying creature when it makes a melee attack, but only if it is  attacking a non-Flying creature in the guard’s zone. Attacks against other Flying creatures always ignore guards. If a Flying creature guards, it loses, and cannot gain, the Flying trait for as long as it has the guard marker.

and the bit from the FAQ:

Guarding

While a creature has a Guard marker it loses, and cannot gain, the Flying trait.

A Guard cannot prevent a creature from attacking itself or an object attached to itself.

Under “Protect the Zone”, on page 33 of the original rulebook, replace the current description with: “If a creature is in a zone with one or more enemies with guard markers (except for guards he can ignore; see sidebar), that creature cannot make a melee attack against any object without a guard marker.” This has the same meaning as before, but may be slightly more clear. Note that similar text is already inserted in the second printing rulebook.

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DeckBuilder

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Re: House Rules to retain realism
« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2013, 09:06:33 PM »
(except for guards he can ignore; see sidebar)

Sidebar on same page 29 lists the exceptions, including a section on flying creatures.
Where it states that guards only protect against melee attacks of flyers on non-flying CREATURES.
Ergo, Rules As Written, guards do not protect against melee attacks of flyers on conjurations.

Not that I am arguing we should follow Rules As Written as the intention from Intercept is clear.
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Shad0w

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Re: House Rules to retain realism
« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2013, 09:19:27 PM »
@ Sike thanks

I do  not have time to pull all the passages into one post and make a ruling. I have some fam stuff to take care of this weekend. If somebody would be kind enough I will read it all and make a ruling this weekend

A creature may spend a quick action to guard. Place a guard marker on the creature. A guard will try to protect its zone from enemy attacks.

Guarding has 2 benefits:

• Counterstrike: As long as the creature is guarding, all of its quick melee attacks gain the Counterstrike trait.
• Protect the Zone: If a creature is in a zone with one or more enemies with guard markers (except for guards
he can ignore; see sidebar), that creature cannot make a melee attack against any object without a guard marker.

Important: Spells and other ranged attacks always ignore guards! Also, a creature may always attack itself, or an object attached to itself, ignoring all guards.

Only melee attacks are affected. If a guard is not melee attacked, it may retain its guard marker until the start of its next Action Phase. Guard markers are always removed at the beginning of a creature’s Action Phase.

Note: Attacking a guard has no effect on the guard’s action marker. If an active creature is on guard, it will still be active after the attack. This may allow a creature to attack twice in the same round: once with the guard counterstrike, then later during its own Action Phase.

If a creature is in a zone with one or more enemies with guard markers (except for guards he can ignore; see sidebar), that creature cannot make a melee attack against any object without a guard marker.”

This passage implies that the attacker chooses a legal target from among all targets with gaurd markers that can legaly guard against the attack.

Flying Creatures and Guards:
Guards affect a flying creature when it makes a melee attack, but only if it is  attacking a non-Flying creature in the guard’s zone. Attacks against other Flying creatures always ignore guards. If a Flying creature guards, it loses, and cannot gain, the Flying trait for as long as it has the guard marker.



Taking the previous passage into account
A Flying creature may attack another flying creature, a ground creature, or a conjuration. If the flyer chooses to attack a grounded target it must choose from any of the creatures that can legaly guard against this attack if it has a guard marker.


The big problem that was making this unclear was the use of the word creature instead of object. From reading over the previous post I think we can agree that the intent of the flyer wording was when a flyer attacks an object, but at this time we currently do not have any flying conjurations so instead the word creature was used to try to avoid any confusion.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 12:29:57 AM by Shad0w »
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sIKE

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Re: House Rules to retain realism
« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2013, 10:18:03 PM »

but at this time we currently do not have any flying conjurations

Currently!!!! Flying conjurations, Oh Yeah!

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Re: House Rules to retain realism
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2013, 12:50:06 AM »
And this turned into a rules clarification thread real quick- <.<
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Moonglow

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Re: House Rules to retain realism
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2013, 06:07:54 AM »
I might be a little drunk and a little ummm something else that gives me an excuse outside of normal politeness, but has anything been advanced over the previous discussions on this topic?  Which sort of implies no one bothered to read the previous posts anyway?


And this turned into a rules clarification thread real quick- <.<