August 15, 2022, 07:23:05 AM

Author Topic: Forcemaster - Grizzlies  (Read 21885 times)

Fentum

  • Sr. Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2013, 02:00:49 PM »
I have fantasies of giving Brogan Bear Strength and Hand of Bim-Shalla and 1 shotting a Wizard's tower.

I have tried that but rolled poorly, as usual.

HERO

  • New Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2013, 07:16:01 PM »
Here's my take on somewhat of the same build, with my personal build to taste.

Forcemaster

2x Battle Fury
2x Bear Strength
1x Cheetah Speed
3x Decoy
2x Dispel
2x Dissolve
1x Dragonscale Hauberk
1x Force Crush
1x Forcefield
2x Force Hammer
2x Force Hold
2x Force Push
1x Force Ring
1x Galvitar, Force Blade
1x Gauntlets of Strength
2x Mage Wand
2x Mind Control
2x Necropian Vampiress
1x Psi-Orb
1x Purify
2x Regrowth
2x Sleep
1x Suppression Orb
2x Surging Wave
3x Teleport

42 spells, 120 spell points

The big difference here is that I have 2x Vampires over the Grizzlys.  I find them to be more cost effective if you think about what you're getting.  You don't need to add anything else other than Regrowth + Bear Strength and they can take care of themselves.  Saves you points, 1 less armor for greater quick attack that can keep the mobile.

The rest of the list is built for a little bit more control with Magewand, 2x MCs, 2x Sleep, 2x Surging Waves, with Force Hold and Force Crush.  Utility spells with Teleport, Dispel and Dissolve, while keeping 2x Force Hammers just in case I need extra dice for damage.

Lastly, the default equipment setup for the Forcemaster herself to keep her dangerous Galvitar and Gauntlets mainly, but I can save a Bear Strength/Regrowth for her as well.

Let me know what you think.

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2504
  • Banana Stickers 57
    • View Profile
Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2013, 08:58:39 PM »
Quote from: Hero
1 less armor for greater quick attack that can keep the mobile.

Normally I would agree. I like the Vampiress better than the Grizzly for most mages. However, for the Forcemaster I would prefer the Grizzly. The reason is because you can use the Forcemaster to mobilize the Grizzly and guarantee that the bear uses his Full Attack each round, and I believe the Grizzly's Full Attack is better than the Vampiress's Quick Attack.

If your Forcemaster is in melee range as well, she can use Force Pull for free (with Force Ring equipped). Otherwise, she can use Force Push for the cost of only 2 mana and 1 spell point to position the bear. Throwing Vampirism + Bear Strength on the Grizzly is a little more expensive than Regrowth + Bear Strength on the Vampiress, and brings the two a little closer together, but I still would favor the 9 Dice Attack of the bear I could throw at my opponent.

Now, that is for just a single creature though. Maintaining such control over the mobility of more than 1 creature at a time with the Forcemaster's spells and abilities is not easily accomplished. Thus, I would only run one Grizzly and choose an alternate creature for my other option. The Vampiress would be a great choice for this second creature.

Anyways, that's my comparison between the two creature options. Both ways are good, and there is no right option. Perhaps you just don't want to have to use your mage to supplement the bear's mobility.

Now, looking at your spellbook itself, I think it looks pretty solid. I would add in Mordok's Obelisk though to go along with your Mind Controls. Their combo to instantly kill a creature is one of the most powerful combos in the game in my opinion. You also might want an extra chest of armor, in case your Dragonscale Hauberk gets dissolved or riddled with Corrode.

Fentum

  • Sr. Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2013, 12:35:05 PM »
Quote from: Hero
1 less armor for greater quick attack that can keep the mobile.

Normally I would agree. I like the Vampiress better than the Grizzly for most mages. However, for the Forcemaster I would prefer the Grizzly.

Agreed. I run a Grizzly plus Vamp in my main Wizard build, but for my FM, I have been experimenting of late. Tried Grizzly, Galador, Vamp, Brogan. Various combo's. Two or three.

Have had best results with Grizzly plus Brogan. This is a joy if I get turn one init vs Priestess or Priest.

Brogan always gets Bear Strength. Someone gets Mongoose, Eagle Wings, etc.

HERO

  • New Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2013, 12:58:38 PM »
OK. I just look at it like this:
Instead of babysitting the Bears with ups, heals and teleports to get his full action attack, you require virtually no babysitting on the vampires.

You can then focus that mana on disruption, control, and buffing your FM to be a better beatstick.

End result is 3 serious threats on the battlefield instead of 2.

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2504
  • Banana Stickers 57
    • View Profile
Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2013, 07:22:47 PM »
You are certainly correct that the Vampiress requires less babysitting since they don't require the boost to mobility. If you don't want to babysit your creatures, that's perfectly fine.

Quote from: HERO
You can then focus that mana on disruption, control, and buffing your FM to be a better beatstick.

What mana? The only thing your doing different with the Grizzly over the Vampiress is pushing things into position. Most of the time you can do that with Force Pull which is completely free if you have a Force Ring equipped.

Quote from: HERO
End result is 3 serious threats on the battlefield instead of 2.

Equally likely with both strategies. Play whichever you prefer.

Dr.Cornelius

  • New Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2014, 02:22:59 AM »
Cervere, the Forest Shadow is another strong option and has advantages over both Grizzly and Vampiress.

While the others struggle against strong guards, like Dwarf Panzergarde, The elusive Cervere goes straight for the opposing Mage.  Cervere's fast trait usually results in an additional round of attacks.  Sprint on turn one, then drop the cat and Rouse The Beast for a four die surprise on turn two. This will often throw opponents off their game.   Ready a Bear Strength on turn three and either you or the cat are hitting hard.

The others may hit harder, but Cervere's combination of speed, elusiveness and 8+ defense are a winner.

somaddict

  • Jr. Mage
  • **
  • Posts: 58
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2014, 03:32:00 AM »
While the others struggle against strong guards...

When this book was still viable, one of the main points was that the grizzlies melted guards like a hot knife through butter. While one could opt to go for the throat (usually the better choice with most mages/books), this book created a hopeless situation for opposing mages panicking to cast creatures that frequently died the same round they were cast, regardless of size, creating a terribly lopsided efficiency of turn issues.

The best way to stop this was lots of reverse attacks, transfustion/jynx, and the FM mirror was a real bitch until I started running six dispels to eat through charms, crushes, and MC. I also started running up to three force fields in pretty much every FM book because they are the the first thing the opponent wants off the board. Causing them to spend several rounds on dispelling force fields created a sort of soft lock on their mana while the fatties laid waste.

In my opinion, the FM, and specifically this kind of book, is not playable these days with so much meta aimed at psychic immunity, and corrode turns these fatties into meat bags. A few lucky rolls early game and this book falls on its face hard now, and yet at one time it was powerful enough to end Charm's unholy 50-70 game win streak. Sad face.

I toyed around with revisiting a more classic thoughtspore build that utilized an attack spell toolbox. Fire blast and burns in general are the most widely effective attack against so many things now, and things lke wave, corrode, and other range 2 attack spells can be nasty.  Spores require constant support with blocks and nullifies to stop nukes and sleeps, which is a timing/maintenance nightmare that stressed me out, but was often godly with double-tap fire-blasting everything into the dirt.

Ultimately, I have pretty much stopped playing because I strongly prefer FM and she is just sad now. She has received very little love,and went from one of the best to one of the worst mages, in my opinion, which I suspect was a reaction to how uber she was before. I'm pretty bummed because I invested heavily into this game and don't know if I will pick it back up. There is no way to undo all of the psychic obsolescence that has mounted steadily. This book was a totally unorthodox hack-around to deal with this trend, and it was in turn stamped out, basically. It's like the designers regretted creating the FM and forced her retirement.

Wow, that was ranty! Somebody call the waaaahmbulance for me.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 03:40:32 AM by somaddict »

lettucemode

  • Guest
Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2014, 09:58:57 AM »
Not ranty at all! Personally I really enjoy strategic perspectives from people who know their book and the game well. Thanks for the write up.

Can I ask why you feel the addition of more Psychic Immune creatures makes the book break down? The only Psychic spells I see in your latest-posted spellbook are 1 Mind Control and 1 Sleep. Does having 2 dead cards in your spellbook really turn the tide that much? If you are against a spellbook with many Psychic Immune creatures, isn't Mordok's Obelisk just as effective?

If your plan to deal with guards was to smash right through them anyway, it seems to me that a similar tactic would work well against Resilient, low-hp targets as well. And most of the things that are Resilient can't even guard.

Regarding Corrode, it seems that adding a Rhino Hide or two could give your creatures some more resistance against it. Is this not the case in your experience?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 10:03:27 AM by lettucemode »

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2014, 10:15:27 AM »
And most of the things that are Resilient can't even guard.
Mostly true, they can have a Guard marker placed on them, and though they are Pests and you do not have to attack them. If you do attack them, they still get a Counter-Strike. I have found that as I am moving them across the board (the ones with Lumber) that it is quite smart to do this if they have nothing to attack like Vine Markers.
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

Aylin

  • Sr. Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 494
  • Banana Stickers 4
    • View Profile
Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2014, 02:25:28 PM »
Not ranty at all! Personally I really enjoy strategic perspectives from people who know their book and the game well. Thanks for the write up.

Can I ask why you feel the addition of more Psychic Immune creatures makes the book break down? The only Psychic spells I see in your latest-posted spellbook are 1 Mind Control and 1 Sleep. Does having 2 dead cards in your spellbook really turn the tide that much? If you are against a spellbook with many Psychic Immune creatures, isn't Mordok's Obelisk just as effective?

If your plan to deal with guards was to smash right through them anyway, it seems to me that a similar tactic would work well against Resilient, low-hp targets as well. And most of the things that are Resilient can't even guard.

Regarding Corrode, it seems that adding a Rhino Hide or two could give your creatures some more resistance against it. Is this not the case in your experience?

I'm wondering this too.

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2014, 02:37:17 PM »
"Another Rhino Skin" is another action and dollop of mana each time and it is for a just "in-case"....
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

somaddict

  • Jr. Mage
  • **
  • Posts: 58
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2014, 07:01:14 PM »
Can I ask why you feel the addition of more Psychic Immune creatures makes the book break down? The only Psychic spells I see in your latest-posted spellbook are 1 Mind Control and 1 Sleep. Does having 2 dead cards in your spellbook really turn the tide that much? If you are against a spellbook with many Psychic Immune creatures, isn't Mordok's Obelisk just as effective?

This is a raw "all or nothing" beat down version of the book. It forked into many alternative builds that reintegrated more psychic stuff as the meta adjusted. Obelisk and the like are only as effective as there are number of opposing creatures now. Before, it was a vicious win-win because of the MC superkill. FM is so mana-starved with a book like this that the 2-3 point mana hit on top of various upkeep costs is quite a burden, whereas other mages with tons of extra actions, mana generation, and equipment discounts can shrug off 5+ upkeep a round relatively painlessly.

The grumbling here comes from the bending over backward and inside out to build a viable competitive FM book that relies on spells from all over the place, yet the FM archetype was inherently designed to be very restrictive and focused on drawing from an insular pool of spells that are now basically firewood. The subtle basis of this book design and its forks is the free force pull to control the board and enable creatures with full attacks to use them every round.

There is no answer, that I know of, to how corrode ruined the fun here. Armored fatties was the center point, and it was no easy task to keep them alive once the meta adjusted. Every competitive book runs corrode now, I imagine, but honestly I have not played in 4-6 months so I just have a lot of uninformed opinions here. :D

I was hoping to come back here to find the next big hack for FM, and with as much scrambling as FM lovers must have made to find it I fear that it isn't going to surface if not already.

I'm not saying this book is no longer fun to play with, but it's no longer consistently competitive, imo, and honestly its very creation speaks volumes about the lack of competitive options the FM has, which are now like zero. I'm being quite pessimistic here so don't let it get you down. :D

barriecritzer

  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 197
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2014, 11:39:44 AM »
other than undead creatures most creatures on not psychic immune and I have never run into another player who uses psychic defense spells

Laddinfance

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 4646
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2014, 12:45:33 PM »
I know there is a lot of concern about the Forcemaster. I just wanted to be sure you all knew that Bryan and I are looking at the Forcemaster quite a bit. We absolutely want to expand the abilities she has access to. We're already working on a few ideas to help her out.

So, if you take anything away from this post please take this, We're sorry that she's lagged and we're working on bringing her back up to speed as well. It may take a bit, but we're not ignoring her in the slightest.