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Author Topic: ACG's Custom Spells and Mages  (Read 313049 times)

ACG

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Re: ACG's Custom Spells and Mages
« Reply #60 on: November 17, 2013, 10:58:01 AM »
Ah, I somehow missed the target of "friendly soldier creature". I saw the effect and immediately jumped for joy at a way to bounce my opponent's creatures back to his spellbook. I still think that bounce is a cool mechanic that should be explored. I can imagine both incantations and enchantments that could have the effect (both for friendly and/or opponent spells) as well as creatures with it built in.

I agree. Currently, I think the only official implementation of "bounce" mechanics are in Jinx, changing bound spells, and cantrips. Definitely a lot of room for exploration.

Catching up on feedback, slowly:
Runic Haste. I like Enhancement as your solution to 2-for-1 loss of Enchant Equipment. I appreciate that a quick action Hunting Bow could not be used twice (only quick spells may be cast with QC marker). However, I am  wary of enablers like this. A future full action ability could become broken with this so its existence restricts future design.

Yes, you make a good point. I can see how things like the Meditation Amulet could become too powerful. What if Runic Haste only hastes attacks? I think there is a limit to how reliant an attack can be on its Full Action status to balance it.

New status remover, in the same spirit as Reanimate Flesh:

Zuberi

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Re: ACG's Custom Spells and Mages
« Reply #61 on: November 17, 2013, 11:14:36 AM »
I dislike Hellforged Cautery being Fire and Dark. Condition removal is the realm of the Holy School.

Sailor Vulcan

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Re: ACG's Custom Spells and Mages
« Reply #62 on: November 17, 2013, 12:15:46 PM »
I think it's mostly fine. Fire cauterizes wounds, although it comes at the price of a lot of pain (and burns too) So perhaps it would be better to replace non-burn conditions with a burn for each one that was removed, rather than taking direct damage? Maybe give the choice of how many conditions are replaced with burns?

Like Zuberi said, true condition removal is holy school territory, but I think "healing" that comes at a price is fitting for the dark school, or at least the warlock.
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Zuberi

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Re: ACG's Custom Spells and Mages
« Reply #63 on: November 17, 2013, 01:17:28 PM »
Quote from: Imaginator
I think it's mostly fine. Fire cauterizes wounds, although it comes at the price of a lot of pain (and burns too) So perhaps it would be better to replace non-burn conditions with a burn for each one that was removed, rather than taking direct damage? Maybe give the choice of how many conditions are replaced with burns?

Like Zuberi said, true condition removal is holy school territory, but I think "healing" that comes at a price is fitting for the dark school, or at least the warlock.

I don't like replacing with Burn Conditions at all. Not all conditions are made equal, which is the point of removal costs to begin with. I'm uneasy actually with basing the damage off of half the removal cost, because that reduces the difference between conditions. I would almost like for the damage to equal the removal cost, but that is a really steep price to pay. You'll regain a loss of mana to pay for removal costs, but regenerating damage is not so easy. Thus, I will accept that the damage is equal to half the removal cost, but replacing with Burn Conditions could be a detriment, an improvement, or a simple trade and I don't like it.

As to the Holy vs Dark issue, to me it seems that the pain and the price is coming from the Fire portion of the spell. I don't see what Dark is contributing to it at all. It is unnecessary, makes no thematic sense, and breaks down the boundaries between the Schools of magic that make them distinct. Making it Fire + Holy would explain all effects of the spell, be thematic, and remain within the parameters of existing canon. If instead, you want to give condition removal to a different school and break from tradition, then you could simply make it a single school spell.

ACG

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Re: ACG's Custom Spells and Mages
« Reply #64 on: November 18, 2013, 06:12:16 PM »
I think it's mostly fine. Fire cauterizes wounds, although it comes at the price of a lot of pain (and burns too) So perhaps it would be better to replace non-burn conditions with a burn for each one that was removed, rather than taking direct damage? Maybe give the choice of how many conditions are replaced with burns?


I don't like replacing with Burn Conditions at all. Not all conditions are made equal, which is the point of removal costs to begin with. I'm uneasy actually with basing the damage off of half the removal cost, because that reduces the difference between conditions. I would almost like for the damage to equal the removal cost, but that is a really steep price to pay. You'll regain a loss of mana to pay for removal costs, but regenerating damage is not so easy. Thus, I will accept that the damage is equal to half the removal cost, but replacing with Burn Conditions could be a detriment, an improvement, or a simple trade and I don't like it.

Well, the average damage done by a burn is 3, and removal costs are typically 2 or 4, so in general this proposal would make the spell even more damaging. On the other hand, burns aren't too difficult to remove if you come prepared. As Zuberi states, it is probably a good idea to tie damage to removal costs. Originally, I had intended for the damage to equal the removal cost, for simplicity. Then I looked at the removal costs for the conditions one would typically remove, and decided that it would be too painful that way.

As to the Holy vs Dark issue, to me it seems that the pain and the price is coming from the Fire portion of the spell. I don't see what Dark is contributing to it at all. It is unnecessary, makes no thematic sense, and breaks down the boundaries between the Schools of magic that make them distinct. Making it Fire + Holy would explain all effects of the spell, be thematic, and remain within the parameters of existing canon. If instead, you want to give condition removal to a different school and break from tradition, then you could simply make it a single school spell.

Perhaps it might help if I explain the inspiration for this spell. I was originally thinking of making a "cauterize" spell to stop bleeding. Unfortunately, bleed is a pretty specific condition, and such a spell would likely never see its way into a spellbook due to its specificity (besides which bleed is already pretty easy to remove). So I decided to keep the idea of purging conditions using fire, but broadened the scope of the flames so they could burn almost any condition out of the target. Clearly, this goes beyond the scope of normal flames, so some other magical component is necessary.

You suggest holy as a second school; holy was actually the first school that I considered ("Cleansing Flames"), but ultimately decided that making it dark was better for a couple of reasons:

1. The holy school already has numerous ways to deal with conditions. Though this spell is versatile, I can't really see any holy mage choosing it over other, less painful options.

2. The theme of sacrificing life or suffering damage in exchange for some benefit is thoroughly dark, as Imaginator notes.

3. Currently, I feel that the holy school has too much of a monopoly on condition removal, a broad category of mechanics. This will change somewhat with the release of cards like Purge Mind (I think that's what it's called), but we need some alternatives.

While I believe that it is necessary to maintain boundaries between different schools of magic, I don't believe that the category of "mechanics that remove status conditions" is something that ought to be restricted to one school. The Holy school should definitely have the simplest, most straightforward spells in this school (in much the same way that the arcane school has the most straightforward antimagic spells), but I think there is still scope for other schools to have more restrictive, conditional alternatives. In this case, Hellforged Cautery gives the warlock a way to burn conditions out of himself or others, which is certainly more painful than magicking them out.

Thematically, the flames of hell will burn out any weakness. Does this rationale make sense?


Zuberi

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Re: ACG's Custom Spells and Mages
« Reply #65 on: November 18, 2013, 07:40:35 PM »
Your reasons are well thought out and make sense. I am still not a big fan of the spell, but I understand where you are coming from.

Meanwhile, I am a huge fan of Overextend. It looks fantastic.

ACG

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Re: ACG's Custom Spells and Mages
« Reply #66 on: November 19, 2013, 10:58:38 PM »
Thanks. Overextend is yet another example of an action-oriented command (as opposed to commands which grant temporary traits, which I feel commands should get away from).

Here' s a card inspired by the Cursed Equipment thread:


ACG

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Re: ACG's Custom Spells and Mages
« Reply #67 on: November 27, 2013, 07:59:13 AM »




ACG

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Re: ACG's Custom Spells and Mages
« Reply #68 on: December 01, 2013, 07:04:24 PM »
Finally some updates to old cards:




And a new card:

baronzaltor

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Re: ACG's Custom Spells and Mages
« Reply #69 on: December 01, 2013, 07:27:23 PM »
I dislike Hellforged Cautery being Fire and Dark. Condition removal is the realm of the Holy School.

To me it seems the schools usually don't have territory over the ends, rather they tend to define the means.

Mind also has a condition removal spell for example.  (Clear Mind, from the more recent Organized Play kit)

A good example though is Resurrection vs Animate Deadů neither school has a signature of raising the dead, simply how they do it. (one brings back a fresh brand new version of the creature, the other is cheaper, but brings back a slow and damaged zombie version.)

Healing is another example: healing in the traditional sense is Holy most of the time, healing by taking from others tends to be dark (Vampirism, Drain Soul, Drain Life) and healing via regrowth tends to be natures way of doing it.
None of them specifically have a claim to healing as a concept unto itself, simply on their style of doing so.

So, Holy really only has claim to condition removal in the form of purification and traditional healer style divine magic.   

ACG

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Re: ACG's Custom Spells and Mages
« Reply #70 on: December 02, 2013, 05:19:23 AM »
To me it seems the schools usually don't have territory over the ends, rather they tend to define the means.

Excellent way of putting it; thanks. Schools should specialize in means, not ends. Maybe it is not necessary for every school to have a way of accomplishing a particular end (on the other hand, why not?), but no school should have a monopoly over a significant game mechanic.



Rethinking some Illusion spells:



A staff for the illusionist:

Zuberi

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Re: ACG's Custom Spells and Mages
« Reply #71 on: December 02, 2013, 07:10:52 AM »
Quote from: ACG
Schools should specialize in means, not ends.

I can agree to this statement, and I acquiesce that there is nothing inherently wrong with your design decision to make Hellforged Cautery both Fire and Dark. It just isn't the route I think that I would have taken.

I like the improvements you made to Mirror World. The previous incarnation was overpowered in my opinion. The new version is still really powerful. Gaining 4 channeling and 2 actions for the price of 16 mana is an insane deal. However the drawbacks of each creature having an Upkeep cost and the existence of the creatures being dependent on Mirror World's continued existence might be enough to balance it out. I'm not 100% certain. It is kind of a hard card to judge, but very interesting! I would love to see how it tests out.

ringkichard

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Re: ACG's Custom Spells and Mages
« Reply #72 on: December 02, 2013, 09:23:55 AM »
I'm a firm believer that schools should be restricted from both means and ends, because one of the game's big strengths is the way the ends follow from the means. Restricting means but not ends turns means into window dressing. If there's a dark heal spell and a light heal spell and a earth heal spell and a mind heal spell then why have all the different schools at all?
I can take the fun out of anything. It's true; here, look at this spreadsheet.

Sailor Vulcan

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Re: ACG's Custom Spells and Mages
« Reply #73 on: December 02, 2013, 09:39:34 AM »
Restricting isn't the same as banning. The dark and nature schools both have healing. But the Holy school has the most and the best healing.

I think certain types of effects and mechanics that "belong" to a specific school can still be used to an extent by other schools' spells. Those spells just won't be as powerful or as plentiful.

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Zuberi

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Re: ACG's Custom Spells and Mages
« Reply #74 on: December 02, 2013, 09:51:48 AM »
Healing was probably a poor example to choose to prove your point Ringkichard. There actually already is a Dark Heal spell, a Holy Heal spell, and a Nature Heal spell. For example: Vampirism, Heal, and Regrowth.

The point of having different schools is to have different play styles. You want each school to play differently and feel differently. At least that's my opinion. You could accomplish this goal by having each school be completely incapable of performing the same tasks. However, you could also accomplish this goal by having them perform the same tasks in different ways. I'm not sure which solution that I prefer, really. I just know that I do want them to remain feeling distinct.