September 26, 2022, 12:37:15 AM

Author Topic: Battle Fury (retarget?)  (Read 14021 times)

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2504
  • Banana Stickers 57
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2013, 10:42:01 AM »
Reach does indeed have an impact.

On page 23 of the FAQ, it explains the reasoning behind the rulings in the Sweeping section clearly enough so that we understand it is dependent on whether the creature has flying or not as to whether its attacks can target a flying or a non-flying creature. Sweeping is just a specific example throughout the first 2 paragraphs.

When we get to the 3rd paragraph though, it is a bit less generic when it says that Sweeping attacks with Reach can ignore this restriction. Since the only thing that has changed is the addition of the Reach trait (without which Sweeping attacks are subject to this restriction) it is logical to assume that it is the Reach trait that allows you to ignore the restriction.

Thus, even though it is not spelled out exactly for us, it is clear that Reach allows a creature to attack either a flying or a non-flying opponent regardless as to whether the attacker has flying or not.

What is not clear, is if the Reach trait affects whether or not you lose the Flying trait. This could be important because if it does cause you to lose flying, then the order of your attacks could matter if they don't both have reach. For instance, if you use a Full Attack with Reach to attack a non-flying creature and then use a Quick Attack from Battle Fury that does not have reach, you would only be able to attack non-flyers because the first attack grounded you.

Summary
Reach attacks allow you to ignore the normal restrictions and attack both flyers and non-flyers. However, the order of your attacks may be important if they don't all have Reach. The rules are not clear on that.

kailas

  • Playtester
  • Full Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 107
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2014, 03:01:02 AM »
But if you use BATTLE FURY as a kind of Sweeping Action, you absolutely have to check again, if you can legally attack your new opponent. Look up "Sweeping" in the Codex:

Quote
The second attack occurs at the end of the attack sequence from the first attack. Start a new attack sequence beginning with the Declare Attack Step.

And another attack should just not be possible, if you have been stunned. This totally goes against the propagated "intuitiveness" of the game. So then we could maybe argue, that another strike against the same target would be possible, while switching targets would be illegal (when you've been stunned). Just my 2 cents. ;)

Best answer in this thread.
Does conditions apply after first strike? Yes. Because of new attack sequance.
Does counterstrike or damage barrier attack twice? No. Because limited once per round on the same creature.
If u have Reach do you lose Flying when attacking non-Flying? No. (Think of it like having long stick). So having full action attack action with reach shouldn't change your position and you could choose with quick action attack without Reach to attack  Flying or non-Flying.

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2504
  • Banana Stickers 57
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2014, 04:40:38 AM »
I'm kind of glad you necro'd this thread. They have released both a new rulebook and a new FAQ since this was last discussed, and the discussion did not end very satisfactorily. Thus it seems appropriate to look and see if the new material addresses things, and indeed it does offer some wisdom.

The section on Battle Fury on page 29 of the FAQ is now quite clear that conditions do affect it and if you use it against the same target as the initial attack sequence you will not suffer a second counterstrike or damage barrier. This is very good to know.

As far as flying and reach is concerned, page 15 of rulebook v3.0 makes it clear that a flying creature must lose flying whenever it melee attacks a non-flying creature and there is nothing in reach that counteracts this (rule wise). The sweeping section on page 23 of the FAQ tells us that a creature may attack both flyers and non-flyers with a reach attack regardless of whether or not the attacker has flying though. Since a creature can not gain or lose flying in the middle of an attack action, I am having difficulty rationalizing these two statements for them both to be true.

If the creature initially attacks a non-flying creature with a melee attack, even one with reach, it seems he would lose flying. However if he initially attacks another flyer, he would retain flying but be able to still attack non-flyers with subsequent reach attacks as part of the same attack action? If so, then why does the first scenario cost him losing flying? Also, if any scenario allows him to melee attack a non flying creature while he still has flying himself, we run into an issue with guards being unable to counterstrike him.

Currently the only creature affected by this seems to be kralathor with eagle wings, but it is confusing and needs some clarification.

edited after additional research. Hopefully this doesn't cause issues if anyone read the first draft, but I am tired and going to bed.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 05:38:41 AM by Zuberi »

jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1073
  • Banana Stickers 19
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2014, 06:30:45 AM »
This is definately a grey zone your highlighting here.

Imo Krathalor with eaglewings does not lose flying when attacking a ground unit.
So if he attacks a guard while flying the guard cannot counterstrike.

Imo Reach shouldnt trigger damage barrier either, just like ranged attacks doesnt.

kailas

  • Playtester
  • Full Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 107
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2014, 06:33:30 AM »
"Also, if any scenario allows him to melee attack a non flying creature while he still has flying himself, we run into an issue with guards being unable to counterstrike him."

It should appear so.
Let's take an example, Wizard with Mage staff (Reach) attacks a Flyer who has counterstrike enchanment.
1. Wizard does not gain Flying, but he is able to attack a Flyer (the same should apply to Flyer who is attacking non-Flyer, he does not lose Flying, he has Reach.)
2. If Flyer reveals enchanment, he cannot counterstrike, because he is out of reach (also he cannot lose Flying in the middle of action).

If Flyer with Reach attacks non-Flyer guard, it uses the guard but is not able to Counterstrike.

So there is a need for the rules to updated:
1. Flyer with Reach doesn't  need to lose flying when attacking non-flying.
OR
2. A creature with Flying trait, cannot use Reach trait. (So when Flying is attacking non-Flying, he must lose Flying, then he can utilize his Reach trait via Sweeping or Battle Fury).

After writing it down i was firm about nr1, but it seems nr2 doesn't contradict any rules.

Also there is the question Non-Flying attacking with Reach a Flying with Counterstrike?

jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1073
  • Banana Stickers 19
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2014, 06:58:36 AM »
Current wording in the codex for reach.

Reach:
This melee attack can target and attack Flying creatures in the same zone.



This is made before Kralathor & Togorahwas released and back then it was only Equipment for mages that had reach.
Since mages currently still have no ways of getting the flying trait and there is no cards that grant regular creatures reach - then at the point it wasnt required to cover that situation in the codex.

Strictly following the codex for reach, means that flying units with attacks that has reach has no effect.

kailas

  • Playtester
  • Full Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 107
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2014, 09:03:02 AM »
So Nr. 2 is correct when (should have checked the codex) :D glad to sort it out.

So only left to figure it out:

Non-Flying attacking with Reach a Flying with Counterstrike, does he get to counterstrike?

jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1073
  • Banana Stickers 19
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2014, 09:38:55 AM »
Lets say a flying unit with a melee attack that has reach should not provoke a counterstrike when attacking a guard.
This leads to the next problem:
Should a non-flying creature with reach still provoke a counterstrike when attacking a non-flying creature then?

Sometimes a melee attack has reach because the creature its very tall (krathalor and Togorah), other times its because they have a long reaching weapon.
Both have been put into the same box. Having that in mind, it makes sense to counterstrike vs flying Kralathor  but not so much vs a flying warlock with lash .
( i realize the warlock cant fly in the first place.)

All this considered i would like to retract my earlier opinion about reach shouldnt provoke counter strike - though it sometimes doesnt make much sense.

to sum it up:
Reach has nothing to do with counter strikes no matter who is flying and not.

Strictly using refering to the current codex Flying Kralathor will lose flying when attacking a non-flyer.
If he is previously battlefury'ed then his second attack can be vs either flying or non-flying because his melee has reach.


Edit:
To add to the confusion.

A flying hydra will be able to counterstrike vs either a flying or non-flying Kralathor or a Warlock with lash.

This seems dirty.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 09:41:49 AM by jacksmack »

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2504
  • Banana Stickers 57
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2014, 11:54:29 AM »
It feels dirty because it is incorrect. The rules on counterstrike are very clear that you must be able to legally target your attacker, therefore if your attacker is a flyer and you are not, or vice versa, you will not be able to counterstrike. This is not necessarily a problem as long as it has been considered in the design when balancing the relative power of reach. If reach allowed a flyer to attack a non-flyer without losing flying it would dramatically increase its power as counterstrike normally comes from guarding.

You can still counterstrike a non flyer with reach if it attacks your non-flyer because there is no targeting issue. They are both on the ground and in the same zone and thus in melee range. Damage barrier doesn't have these issues because they happen automatically without needing to target at all. They occur if you are out of range or even even killed after getting hit.

Now it is true that reach only mentions being able to attack flyers with melee attacks in its codex entry, which would indicate that it doesn't affect flyers at all. However the FAQ says it does affect flyers by allowing them to split a sweeping attack to hit both flying and non-flying creatures (page 23). This isn't really an issue if their first target is on the ground because then they would lose flying and also be on the ground and reach would work as intended. However, if their first target is a flyer they would not lose flying and still be able to hit a non-flyer with their second sweeping reach attack.

Unless of course you can think of a reason why attacking a flyer would cause you to lose flying, the second attack could not make you lose it because it is part of the same attack action. And you can not gain or lose flying during an attack action.

This is definitely a corner case as it would currently involve kralathor with eagle wings receiving a battle fury and then splitting his attack to first hit a flyer and then hit a non-flyer. Even then it wouldn't matter unless the non-flyer had a counterstrike. A very specific situation which we shouldn't worry too much about, but it is possible and so does need some kind of ruling.

Either you are able to attack a non-flyer without losing flying under these very specific and unusual circumstances, or you are not able to attack both flyers and non-flyers with a sweeping reach attack if both the attacker and first defender have flying.

The rules currently are a bit contradictory because the rulebook does not allow you to ever attack a non-flyer without losing flying first, but the FAQ is very clear that you can always split a sweeping attack if it has reach. Both documents are official and neither carries more weight than the other.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 12:00:49 PM by Zuberi »

Laddinfance

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 4646
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2014, 02:13:32 PM »
Well I know this has been a while, but I did want to answer the question. This is a pretty complicated rules interaction. But I think we can simplify it a little bit.

First, Reach is as written. This means that it does not benefit flying creatures. Part of flying means you can't take advantage of your reach as you would when planted firmly on the ground.

Second, Flying creatures must lose Flying to attack non-flying creatures. If a flying creature wants to attack a pedestrian creature then they need to swoop down to do so.

Third, a creature cannot gain or lose flying during an attack action.

So, what does this mean for the questions posed here? Well first, a creature with Flying and Reach, will still lose Flying when they attack a non-Flying object. Also, in order for a Flying creature with a Sweeping Melee attack with reach to attack both Flying and non-Flying targets then they will have to lose Flying (presumably by attacking the non-Flying creature first). Lastly, if you have a flying creature with counterstrike and they are attacked by a non-Flying creature with reach, then they cannot legally make their counterattack, because they cannot lose Flying during the attack action.

Hopefully these help! If you have any questions please ask.

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2014, 04:12:21 PM »
Nice! And the rulings all make sense!
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

Laddinfance

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 4646
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2014, 05:01:18 PM »
Nice! And the rulings all make sense!

Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus!

ringkichard

  • Flightless Funpire
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2564
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Kich, if you prefer.
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2014, 05:35:05 PM »
+1 on this. Very well done.
I can take the fun out of anything. It's true; here, look at this spreadsheet.

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2504
  • Banana Stickers 57
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2014, 07:20:05 PM »
I am glad to hear this ruling. It makes complete sense to me and is quite logical. Just for clarity's sake though, this does mean that if a flying creature with reach attacks another flying creature, they would not be able to make a secondary attack (sweeping or battle fury) against a non-flying creature, correct?

Laddinfance

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 4646
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2014, 08:19:35 PM »
I am glad to hear this ruling. It makes complete sense to me and is quite logical. Just for clarity's sake though, this does mean that if a flying creature with reach attacks another flying creature, they would not be able to make a secondary attack (sweeping or battle fury) against a non-flying creature, correct?

Yes.