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Author Topic: Duplicate Mage-Only, Epic DvN cards: why?  (Read 6876 times)

IndyPendant

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Duplicate Mage-Only, Epic DvN cards: why?
« on: December 01, 2013, 11:13:44 AM »
Hi all.

One thing has bothered me a bit ever since I purchased my DvN box: there are a number of cards in the expansion that are both (Druid or Necromancer) Only and Epic...and two copies of them were included in the set.

Why?

You can only every include one copy of an Epic card in any spellbook.  Since the cards are Druid or Necromancer Only, no other mages will be including them.  The only reason I can think of for two copies is for a future expansion which has the 'alternate' versions of the mages (like Conquest of Kumanjaro).  This still seems a waste to me however; why not just include another copy of those key cards in that expansion, if/when it comes out.

This isn't a trivial issue: there are 6 utterly wasted cards in a 220-card list: Altar of Skulls, Graveyard, Libro Mortuos, Samara Tree, Vine Tree, and Ziggurat of Undeath.  That's one more level-1 card we could have had to play with without changing the card count, or maybe a higher level card and a couple extra Teleports, for example.

Am I missing something?

--IndyPendant.

pixelgeek

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Re: Duplicate Mage-Only, Epic DvN cards: why?
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2013, 11:19:06 AM »
Am I missing something?

Building more than one spellbook with the cards
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Mrmt

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Re: Duplicate Mage-Only, Epic DvN cards: why?
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2013, 03:16:38 PM »
Am I missing something?

Building more than one spellbook with the cards

Surely it's better to offer people more tools to make the best mage they can be, than to waste cards so people can build multiple decks of the same mage? If people are so dedicated that they want multiple versions of the same mage on instant call, they can just buy another set... or shift one or two cards between sets when needed.

I personally think it's a waste to give people multiple epic mage specific spells... They could always shove an extra in the alternate druid/necro decks if they ever appear. (That said, I am not convinced they ever will...I don't feel the game is currently priced and marketed accessibly enough to provide the longevity. I hope I am wrong!)

Zuberi

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Re: Duplicate Mage-Only, Epic DvN cards: why?
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2013, 04:20:31 PM »
Quote from: Mrmt
.I don't feel the game is currently priced and marketed accessibly enough

How in the world do you come to this conclusion? Even if you don't count the markers and stunningly gorgeous spellbooks, which obviously took a lot of time and effort, you are still getting an amazing deal. If you only consider the cards, you're paying half the price per card as you would for a Magic the Gathering Booster Pack. It is also half the price per card as an Android Netrunner Data Pack. How can you say the product isn't priced competitively when it is half the price for what you're getting as either of the expansion models for two of the biggest customizable games?

sIKE

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Re: Duplicate Mage-Only, Epic DvN cards: why?
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2013, 04:28:04 PM »
This is the take away for this release? Six duplicate cards and "You got ganked" - As the Winchester brothers would say...

I sleeved up my cards last night and marveled at the number of cards I received. AW just can not win. People thought with the Core that there were not enough of "X" cards or "Y" cards, hearing those cries from their customers (us) they have made great strides over the following releases to ensure that enough of all cards in the sets they have distributed since. Though you might not find a use for these "6 ganked cards" many more (IMHO) will find that they will come in handy. As for cost of the sets and such, each to his own......
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Re: Duplicate Mage-Only, Epic DvN cards: why?
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2013, 04:45:22 PM »
Some people play with people who don't own their own copies of the game. Have two copies of these cards allows for these people to play the same mages against such an opponent. Other than that I can't really see the reason for the inclusion, but anyway there was a rather big survey with quite a bit of detail to determine what people wanted. AW is giving people what they said they wanted. Personally I think the card distribution as it stands now is much better (for the most part) then it was before the change.

Mrmt

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Re: Duplicate Mage-Only, Epic DvN cards: why?
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2013, 05:55:40 PM »
Quote from: Mrmt
.I don't feel the game is currently priced and marketed accessibly enough

How in the world do you come to this conclusion? Even if you don't count the markers and stunningly gorgeous spellbooks, which obviously took a lot of time and effort, you are still getting an amazing deal. If you only consider the cards, you're paying half the price per card as you would for a Magic the Gathering Booster Pack. It is also half the price per card as an Android Netrunner Data Pack. How can you say the product isn't priced competitively when it is half the price for what you're getting as either of the expansion models for two of the biggest customizable games?

As I wrote on board game geek, my perspective is as a UK customer, and all games are more expensive. When a single expansion to mage wars costs the same or more than a fully fledged other game, and given the relative lack of players here, yes, it's a tall order to get people here to buy the whole package.

I agree it seems a better deal than Netrunner, but Netrunner has a significant advantage that it's played by a lot of people, so you are investing in something that gets table time. (Personally, I find netrunner expansions overpriced, but they certainly do sell). Netrunner has the advantage in that it costs half what mage wars does to get started... The entry barrier for mage wars is high, and as a result, games shops don't stock it or support it. Even the distributor in this country (Esdevium Games) appears to have concluded it's not worth pushing.

I don't see MtG as a comparable product. In a perfect world, perhaps, but MtG has a huge culture around it, meaning people are willing to pay idiot prices to compete. There is no way Mage wars will unseat it, given its other barriers.  There just isn't the marketing. Shame, as it's a better game.

Price wise, I am a board gamer, and am comparing Mage Wars with other board game prices. By that benchmark, it's on the more expensive end of the scale.

Don't get me wrong - I like this game. But I can't help feel it's being held back by marketing issues. Perhaps they are not solveable, but I feel it could be more widely known and loved. Lots of people in my games clubs have at least tried netrunner, and /or bought the base set. That hasn't happened for mage wars.  I see no gameplay reason why it shouldn't be more widely played.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2013, 06:03:54 PM by Mrmt »

Zuberi

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Re: Duplicate Mage-Only, Epic DvN cards: why?
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2013, 06:44:47 PM »
Even with the starter set you are getting a better value than most other customizable card-based games, including Magic and Netrunner. I'm not sure which games you are comparing it to, but I believe the fairest comparison is with other card-based customizable games. I would also accept comparing it to miniatures games, but I'm not very familiar with those so I do not do it myself. These are the games it is most similar to though, and thus the fairest comparison in design, price, and distribution.

When we look at these, we see that Mage Wars is most certainly not overpriced. It is one of the best values on the market in fact. The high cost per product is due to the amount of product you are getting. I'm not saying that the distribution model can't be improved upon, just that you have to do it in a way other than simply slashing prices. Selling single mage expansions might be an option. Selling all of the spellbooks separately from the cards is another idea. We might cut out half the cards included in the core set to reduce its price tag to ~$45. What suggestions do you have?

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Re: Duplicate Mage-Only, Epic DvN cards: why?
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2013, 08:58:57 AM »
Disagree, I love that AW is including 2 copies of those cards. I was sort of disappointed with the number of duplicate spells in the Core set (Only 1 Regrowth Belt? C'mon...) So when I saw that the expansions were including multiple copies of cards I was really happy. Multiple epic spells means you can have books for alternate mages constructed at the same time, and multiple legendary/mage exclusive means you can bring out another if one gets destroyed. Don't fight against this, please, it's great for the game and great for deckbuilding.

jacksmack

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Re: Duplicate Mage-Only, Epic DvN cards: why?
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2013, 02:02:45 PM »
Im also happy that they put excately 2 of the epic mage specific card in the game.

(for me 1 and 3 would be a no-no)

Laddinfance

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Re: Duplicate Mage-Only, Epic DvN cards: why?
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2013, 02:20:50 PM »
We ended up with the distribution found in Druid vs. Necro and Conquest of Kumanjaro because of player feedback. We were trying to provide for what our players wanted.

IndyPendant

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Re: Duplicate Mage-Only, Epic DvN cards: why?
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2013, 03:09:00 PM »
Hmm, for the record, I did not think I 'got ganked' over this, or think AW was deliberately doing anything wrong.  At worst, I thought AW made a mistake including two Epic Mage-Only copies, and so I asked why they did it.  This thread has provided at least two reasons that I had not considered.  My personal opinion is that it would have been better to include another card instead--but I am not the only customer AW services, and I'm more than happy overall with the quality of the DvN expansion.

I asked for a reason, I was provided some.  Case closed, as far as I'm concerned!  Thanks, all.

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Re: Duplicate Mage-Only, Epic DvN cards: why?
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2013, 09:45:41 PM »
Both sides have good points here. I personally feel that the $60 invested in the starter set gives much more 'bang for the buck' than a comparable amount of Magic Cards, and is equal to Netrunner's awsome LCG starter box in playability (but is a third more expensive). I don't see why the initial set 'needs' expanding -- one could play it for years and never see the same game twice.

I also see why UK players would wince at dropping $$ on the game if it costs so much over there.

Perhaps as an intro pack, AW could take a page from Summoner Wars. Sell a cheaper 'intro' product with the rules, a paper (or vinyl) mat board, and only enough cards for 2 mages. It would get new players into the game and expand their market share in Europe. (I'm guessing, although they've probably considered that idea and rejected it for some good reason or other.)


Mrmt

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Re: Duplicate Mage-Only, Epic DvN cards: why?
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2013, 05:34:26 PM »
I don't see why the initial set 'needs' expanding -- one could play it for years and never see the same game twice.
...

I also see why UK players would wince at dropping $$ on the game if it costs so much over there.


I totally get this point. The base set is great for plenty of play.

But it's a psychological thing... As each new expansion comes out, the core feels less complete. That is obviously not true on one level - nothing has changed! - but all these juicy new options... This is both the lure of Mage Wars, and, I suspect, a challenge. To get into it now and buy the whole shebang feels intimidating.

On an aside, core mage wars is pretty much sold out in the uk now. On amazon.co.uk  it's costs GBP 75 inc postage. (That's more than $120).

This is either a good thing - it's sold beyond expectations - or a worrying thing - the distributor is not supporting it during the biggest games selling time of the year, missing a huge opportunity for expansion.

sIKE

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Re: Duplicate Mage-Only, Epic DvN cards: why?
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2013, 06:50:58 PM »
It sounds like the UK needs a company there to license and sell MW. This should bring the cost down....
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