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Author Topic: Alternative female mage art?  (Read 28808 times)

DarthDadaD20

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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2013, 09:00:56 PM »
Truly, dark days are upon us.  :'(

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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2013, 09:16:50 PM »
I won't talk with complex words to try to make my statement look likes better or more important (when people talk about religion, politic or sexism they tend to do that).

But personally, I like my women fat (big boobs, big ass and big belly). So... When will we see a female mage having these caracteristiques?

Also, I do not see people complaining about the all very muscular-testosteroneful male mages that Beastmaster, Warlord, Warlock and Priest are. I want more ugly, nerdish male mage... Why it is always about the females and never about the males that people complain?

To finish, I think that all the goblins look like way too muh goblinish. They should be less stereotyped in my opinion.

^^ Absolutely brilliant satire! Why isn't there a Like button here?


Apologies for the delay in response. Friday night here in the UK, better things to do. That's why I had to rush out with just a cursory reply.

So I made what I felt was a balanced argument. Please re-read the 2 posts I wrote fully before attacking me in your righteous wrath.

I explained that Fantasy genre is male-centric.

No matter how hard Hollywood try to rewrite Tolkein, there were no female characters in The Hobbit and there were just 2 cameo support females in Lord of the Rings, Galadriel and Eowyn. Does that make Tolkien sexist? One can read alot of subtext into Tolkien (especially when the Fellowship, itself a male-centric word, is down to 2) but sexism is surely not one of them?

The fact is Fantasy uses European medieval society as a technological and cultural setting. And unfortunately, medieval society was just not that into its equal gender rights. Or racial integration. To have a female black crusader holding Jerusalem in Kingdom of Heaven would not work. Morgan Freemen as the token black "Syrian" (do people know what Syrians look like?) in Robin of Sherwood is tokenism. And tokenism is actually a damning admission that "this minority is so insecure that it wants to impose a revisionist history on us". Once you use the weight of political correctness to rewrite history (more so than conquerors did), we are on dangerous ground.

My post explained that Swords & Sorcery Fantasy (what I call Pulp Fantasy, as opposed to the more intellectual fantasy of Middle Earth with its deep history, geography, language and runes) is steeped in a tradition of sexism. I am damning about it, it's plain that I do not condone it. I call Conan sexist, a sign of its times.

Since then, we have seen the lot of females improve in Fantasy Literature. We have Hermione Granger as the most accomplished apprentice in the otherwise male-centric stories written by J K Rowling. We have Danaerys Targaryen, naive but principled. Though even Westeros, a cypher for Britain with its Wall and its Irish raiders, accepts that there no black faces beyond Jalabhar Xho, the exile from the Southern Isles "who is bedecked in a cape of fine feathers". And no, neither Xaro Xoan Daxos or Salador Sahn were black, that's just HBO's political correctness). Do we rise in anger that treacherous Braavos, with its a canals a cypher for the intrigue of Venice, is racist against Italians as it depicts them as treacherous, like condotieres of Machiavelli's time?

It's just a cypher!

Some images are loaded in our psyche. It is very hard to purge them. Fantasy writers will therefore leverage this in-built associations. Noble barbarian Wildings from the tundra. Mongol horde Dothraki riders. Treacherous bravos (it's a word) from Braavos. They are all just cyphers, used because they reinforce subconscious images, making them more believable hence acceptable to the reader.

What do people want?

Images that you just don't associate? That destroys the illusion. And in the end, Fantasy is just escapism. There is no Etheria where culturally women wore less clothes than men. A Female Elf Priestess of Asrya is as imaginary as a Male Elf. Aylin differentiates between the fantasy of the races and the reality of their gender. But it's the whole package! It's all imaginary!

When I asked AW to at least subvert their "embarrassingly straightforward stereotyping", was that me in any way complimenting them for the Jokhtari (which I bring up) or other PC faux pas that they have made? Yet Aylin thinks that subvert means "it's ok, it's a joke" rather than the cliche role reversal example I gave of the damsel rescuing the prince. Oh dear.

I think what really annoyed me was that anybody could see that I could understand why the fantasy gaming hobby is a pandering to these Fantasy genre literature tropes and more importantly, an intrinsic sexism within the geek demographic which is their target market. But despite this, I was pretty unequivocal in stating my feeling that MW had made some naive, non-malicious mistakes in their gender stereotyping.

It's all there in black and white, Aylin. I tried to stay neutral but in fact I was actually more critical towards MW. Yet you launched into a one-sided carefully edited out-of-context tirade about me.

People have only to compare your "it's wrong!" preachy hectoring to Kich's erudite response to appreciate that my comment about militant do-gooders was not aimed at Kich (sorry for your vanity) but at your attack on me. I have nothing but respect for Kich's position because he gave cogent arguments, not just the same old platitides and carefully edited misquotes that is weapon of militants and is actually so damaging to your cause.

I included many reasons why AW should change their art depiction. Yet Aylin, you chose to attack me because I tried to give a more balanced view instead of just a one-sided diatribe? Do you not believe in understanding both sides of a debate, to understand why the situation arisen in the first place? Or is your preference to censor any contrary views, bully them down with some perceived moral high ground?

If Mage Wars art depiction is hurting their product, they will change it. If they then create female dwarf bowmen and female elf crossbowmen, both fully clothed, and this jars with their fan base that sales fall, they will revert to more accepted stereotypes, hopefully still clothed.

In which fantasy trope does a mage, a spell-caster, don armour? I find this indignation slightly odd when it's the males like the armoured Warlock that is out-of-place with fantasy literature. So Mage Wars has created its own subgenre of Fantasy, where Paladins and Sirens are "mages". Well, if they released a female Paladin in just a plate mail bikini, I would be up in arms. But I would also be up in arms if they released a male Siren dressed in full plate mail. Because these are fantasy tropes. There is no sexism when the concept, dating back to before the Odyssey, is of an alluring female. The woman in the village who "enchanted" men with her beauty and was drowned as a witch was called an enchantress because of her beauty. How can you rewrite history just for some political correctness when this is what happened? Such revisionism is dangerous, nay seditious.

I was flabbergasted that I've been sanctioned for a flippant comment (aimed at "I don't want to hear any other argument" proselytisers like Aylin, not reasoned argument like Kich) when I actually gave a balanced view that veered on the same side as him and then got blatantly attacked by Aylin. I am so incensed that Arcane Wonders have again bowed to some sort of political correctness by focusing on me, above. I really couldn't care if this is my last post because I find this incredibly unfair and I'm utterly disillusioned.

It's getting late (3am here) and I'm tired trying to knock some sense into someone who is obviously so incensed that I could take a balanced view (yet still come down on the side of "it's a bit sexist, at least subvert it") that he can make this rabid attack whilst displaying the careful editing skills of a militant propagandist. I'll therefore end with a telling point that demonstrates Aylin's view that people are not equal. He makes a big deal that I should be ashamed of not standing up for women like a militant feminist because I'm from a minority. Well, what I ask Aylin is this: why should I be any special to someone not from a minority? The very fact that he constantly brings it up, amazed that a minority would not want special privileges, would like to stand on his/her own merits instead of trading in on some minority status, is an indictment that the special treatment attributed to minority views, an example of (to butcher Orwell) "all views are treated equally - but some views are more equal than others". You reveal your own prejudices by expressing your amazement. The world is more than just White Male Heterosexuals vs. the Rest of the Downtrodden Subjugated World, Aylin. If women are ruthless enough to get to the top of the corporate ladder like ruthless men, they will get there. If an intelligent black man with a muslim name deserves to be president of the USA, he will get there. It's a meritocracy we live in. And where a minority view is no more important than the silent majority view.

I feel I have been civil in my response but no doubt forum police will think otherwise. But I couldn't care less as this is just more kowtowing to political correctness when actually I have been more than critical of depictions in Mage Wars. Aylin attacks me, I respond with a visible sigh and I'm the villain? Hey, this will be shortest tenure as a Playtester (I made a splash behind the scenes) but the inequity of being singled out here was too much.
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Aylin

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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2013, 09:20:42 PM »
Oh Lord, save us from militant liberal do-gooders...

Uh... kay...?

Quote
Aylin, as you keep highlighting my minorities, a card that I usually refuse play (my mistake for off-hand mentioning it),

I mentioned it once, in a reply to the very post you stated it in. I apologize if this offended you; I won't mention them again.

Quote
I can speak from personal experience that I cringe when I get defended by do-gooders who have no first hand experience, who believe in divisive policies like positive discrimination (why not pay compensation for slavery?) and celebrate ghetto-ising society, be it physically or within society, rather than integration.

I haven't exactly made it a secret that I'm female.

What I would like to see is for them to stop sexually objectifying nearly every female creature or mage. I do not see any way doing that could detract from the game.

The other things you mentioned don't really have any bearing on this issue, so I'll leave those alone.

Quote
This constant highlighting of difference is the last thing that minorities want, acceptance not marginalisation.

You, from earlier in this very thread:
Quote
Gender stereotyping will occur because men and women are instrinscally different.

So right now I'm a little confused as to whether you want to highlight differences or not.

Regardless, you are right; most people in a minority group would prefer not to be marginalized. As such I would prefer it if an otherwise great game would stop doing that (depiction of almost all females as eye candy, non-whites as barbarians).

Quote
It is laudable you feel so strongly about the objectification of women in our media (games is just another medium). I suspect measured advocates of a more balanced view (because men are shamelessly stripped naked in media far more than women) will not thank you for your half-read and carefully edited rant.

Whether or not the above is true, we're talking about Mage Wars specifically. As I said before, one instance of bigotry against a group doesn't make another instance of bigotry (to either the same or a different group) ok.

Quote
So if you wish to alienate more undecideds and do your cause more disservice, please continue to rant away. :)

Could you please enlighten me as to which definition of 'rant' you are using? The only ones I've been able to find specify "violent, angry, or extravagant writing or speech", though honestly I was more shocked than anything else at the time.

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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2013, 09:55:40 PM »
...well then. I won't say much aside from clarifying a few of the things I said which seem to have been misinterpreted.

When I asked AW to at least subvert their "embarrassingly straightforward stereotyping", was that me in any way complimenting them for the Jokhtari (which I bring up) or other PC faux pas that they have made? Yet Aylin thinks that subvert means "it's ok, it's a joke" rather than the cliche role reversal example I gave of the damsel rescuing the prince. Oh dear.

I was actually referring to this sentence:
Quote
Add humour so that any perceived sexism can be deflected as lacking a sense of humour.
The...part where you straight-up suggest that they do that.

I left the rest of your paragraphs in (aside from the one I removed with ellipses) since I didn't want to take that sentence out of context.

Quote
It's all there in black and white, Aylin. I tried to stay neutral but in fact I was actually more critical towards MW. Yet you launched into a one-sided carefully edited out-of-context tirade about me.

I wasn't attacking you. I was appalled that you suggested it was ok for people to discriminate against minority group for various reasons.

And carefully edited? I took out a few paragraphs so as not to make my post unreasonably long. Which parts do you feel I unfairly represented what you said? I will go back and edit my post to include any parts of yours that you feel should be there.

Quote
People have only to compare your "it's wrong!" preachy hectoring to Kich's erudite response to appreciate that my comment about militant do-gooders was not aimed at Kich (sorry for your vanity) but at your attack on me. I have nothing but respect for Kich's position because he gave cogent arguments, not just the same old platitides and carefully edited misquotes that is weapon of militants and is actually so damaging to your cause.

I included many reasons why AW should change their art depiction. Yet Aylin, you chose to attack me because I tried to give a more balanced view instead of just a one-sided diatribe? Do you not believe in understanding both sides of a debate, to understand why the situation arisen in the first place? Or is your preference to censor any contrary views, bully them down with some perceived moral high ground?

I've tried to be respectful to you in this thread. If I have failed in this, I apologize.

Quote
There is no sexism when the concept, dating back to before the Odyssey, is of an alluring female. The woman in the village who "enchanted" men with her beauty and was drowned as a witch was called an enchantress because of her beauty. How can you rewrite history just for some political correctness when this is what happened? Such revisionism is dangerous, nay seditious.

I'm going to state right now that I removed part of this paragraph and the two just above it.

However, age of a trope doesn't make it less sexist. Moving on from that, if they released a scantily-clad female siren (with the other females properly clothed) I wouldn't have a problem with it, especially if they later released a scantily-clad male siren. My issue is that every currently released female mage is wearing ridiculous clothing, and almost all of the (few) female creatures are as well.

Quote
I was flabbergasted that I've been sanctioned for a flippant comment (aimed at "I don't want to hear any other argument" proselytisers like Aylin, not reasoned argument like Kich) when I actually gave a balanced view that veered on the same side as him and then got blatantly attacked by Aylin. I am so incensed that Arcane Wonders have again bowed to some sort of political correctness by focusing on me, above. I really couldn't care if this is my last post because I find this incredibly unfair and I'm utterly disillusioned.

It's getting late (3am here) and I'm tired trying to knock some sense into someone who is obviously so incensed that I could take a balanced view (yet still come down on the side of "it's a bit sexist, at least subvert it") that he can make this rabid attack whilst displaying the careful editing skills of a militant propagandist. I'll therefore end with a telling point that demonstrates Aylin's view that people are not equal. He makes a big deal that I should be ashamed of not standing up for women like a militant feminist because I'm from a minority. Well, what I ask Aylin is this: why should I be any special to someone not from a minority? The very fact that he constantly brings it up, amazed that a minority would not want special privileges, would like to stand on his/her own merits instead of trading in on some minority status, is an indictment that the special treatment attributed to minority views, an example of (to butcher Orwell) "all views are treated equally - but some views are more equal than others". You reveal your own prejudices by expressing your amazement. The world is more than just White Male Heterosexuals vs. the Rest of the Downtrodden Subjugated World, Aylin. If women are ruthless enough to get to the top of the corporate ladder like ruthless men, they will get there. If an intelligent black man with a muslim name deserves to be president of the USA, he will get there. It's a meritocracy we live in. And where a minority view is no more important than the silent majority view.

1. I was shocked that someone who claims to be in a minority group would give the go-ahead to discriminate against another minority group.
2. I was unaware that mentioning something in one post constituted "constantly bringing it up". Though I did mention it in my last post (to apologize for offending you) and here (to clarify my original position), but in both of those cases you brought it up first...
3. I was also unaware that asking to not be discriminated against, blatantly or otherwise, was a "special privilege".
4. "Special treatment of minority views"??? I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. About the only thing that would apply would be to...ask people in a minority group if X is offensive to them or how Y affects them? Just...what?


I also took out a paragraph at the end with my amazing editing skills.

Sailor Vulcan

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Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2013, 10:47:54 PM »
While traditionally sirens are female, that's probably because most sailors who told stories about sirens were male.

Also, all dwarves LOOK male, but there are female dwarves. Maybe all sirens look female, but some of them are men.

Also, traditional fantasy tropes aren't God. There are lots of fantasy stories where women are equal to men. While the real life time period upon which much of the fantasy genre is derived from did not have that much gender equality, it also didn't have mages or any magic at all. That's why it's FANTASY and not HISTORICAL FICTION.

And fantasy isn't always medieval. There's also fantasy based on colonial times, Ancient Rome, ancient China, and a lot of other cultures and time periods. Medieval fantasy just happens to be the most common.

I dare you to try to invent a fantasy trope that doesn't already exist. Or any trope for that matter. Using and combining preexisting tropes in novel ways is what makes a good writer. Readers like to be surprised. If story and characters are too predictable, they're boring. While I don't like it, a mild amount of sexism is probably tolerable, as long as that sexism is directed at both sexes and is lampshaded by greater gender diversity.

On a related note, I personally think it's a good idea thematically for certain mage class's to be more likely to have alternate genders and sexes. A shapeshifter could be a gender fluid hermaphrodite. A Sympath could be a pan-gender man or woman. An illusionist could be an agendered man or woman. I feel like these genders and sexes would be very fitting.

The illusionst being of the male or female sex while not having a gender can be very deceptive to most people. They try to classify the mage one way and they don't realize they're wrong and can't classify him until it's too late.

A Sympath would be great as a pan-gendered mage because of great flexibility that would allow him/her to use copy mechanics. Since sympathetic magic is based on imitation and correspondence, and one of the best ways to facilitate correspondence with everyone they meet is by having all their genders.

And a gender-fluid shapeshifter? That's kind of self explanatory I think.


Pangender: all genders
Gender-fluid: constantly changing gender
Agendered: No gender. Not to be confused with Gender-neutrality, which is a gender.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 10:53:24 PM by Imaginator »
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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2013, 10:51:04 PM »
I won't talk with complex words to try to make my statement look likes better or more important (when people talk about religion, politic or sexism they tend to do that).

Politics nothing! I do that when I'm ordering at a restaurant or taking idly about the weather! :D

And your point is well founded: I've been using a lot of theory when what we need is more practice. Trotsky had a simple, practical, request that I kinda hijacked so I could grind my axe. My bad.

So, in the spirit of my new year's resolution to never talk about a problem without talking also about its solution, how could this work? A set of alternate art promos for all the mages? Maybe foil stamped?

Would people buy a set of those for all 10 (soon to be 12 or 14) mages if it were available, lavishly illustrated, and happened to include revised, appropriately badass women of Mage Wars in full battle array? I'm imagining someone like Spike (of Templar Arizona) illustrating the Druid, or Noel Stevenson (of Nimona) illustrating the Joctari Beastmaster. (I say "someone like" because I don't know if either of them take commissions for illustrations. Probably not, in fact.)
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Sailor Vulcan

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Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2013, 10:59:36 PM »
Most minis games allow people to paint their figures. Wouldn't it be cool if we could have cards on which we could draw our own unique mage art? Or even a program that allows us to use different templates to customize our mage's appearance.

We could even have mage art contests during organized play! That would be cool.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 11:03:17 PM by Imaginator »
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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2013, 11:10:42 PM »
While traditionally sirens are female, that's probably because most sailors who told stories about sirens were male.

Also, all dwarves LOOK male, but there are female dwarves. Maybe all sirens look female, but some of them are men.

Also, traditional fantasy tropes aren't God. There are lots of fantasy stories where women are equal to men. While the real life time period upon which much of the fantasy genre is derived from did not have that much gender equality, it also didn't have mages or any magic at all. That's why it's FANTASY and not HISTORICAL FICTION.

And fantasy isn't always medieval. There's also fantasy based on colonial times, Ancient Rome, ancient China, and a lot of other cultures and time periods. Medieval fantasy just happens to be the most common.

I dare you to try to invent a fantasy trope that doesn't already exist. Or any trope for that matter. Using and combining preexisting tropes in novel ways is what makes a good writer. Readers like to be surprised. If story and characters are too predictable, they're boring. While I don't like it, a mild amount of sexism is probably tolerable, as long as that sexism is directed at both sexes and is lampshaded by greater gender diversity.

On a related note, I personally think it's a good idea thematically for certain mage class's to be more likely to have alternate genders and sexes. A shapeshifter could be a gender fluid hermaphrodite. A Sympath could be a pan-gender man or woman. An illusionist could be an agendered man or woman. I feel like these genders and sexes would be very fitting.

The illusionst being of the male or female sex while not having a gender can be very deceptive to most people. They try to classify the mage one way and they don't realize they're wrong and can't classify him until it's too late.

A Sympath would be great as a pan-gendered mage because of great flexibility that would allow him/her to use copy mechanics. Since sympathetic magic is based on imitation and correspondence, and one of the best ways to facilitate correspondence with everyone they meet is by having all their genders.

And a gender-fluid shapeshifter? That's kind of self explanatory I think.


Pangender: all genders
Gender-fluid: constantly changing gender
Agendered: No gender. Not to be confused with Gender-neutrality, which is a gender.

I just wanted to +1 this post.
I'm not sure what in-game effects it would have, but some non-standard gender presentation would be nice.


Ringkichard:
The set would need to be available to everyone (not just those that go to specific events - my main dislike of promos). They could package it with the errata-ed cards, extra tokens (especially the damage and mana ones), and possibly extra copies of Bloodreaper/Holy Avenger/Treebond/etc (sometimes these get lost...and it would suck to have to purchase the expansion over again for one token). Not only would this get everyone who doesn't want to a half-dressed mage, a lot of people would probably also like the extra tokens and physical copies of the updated Temples and Battle Fury and might buy it just for that. They'd get to make more money and spin it as doing the right thing, which should hopefully make everyone happy.

As long as they made an effort to not sexualize the mages/creatures in future expansions I think it would pretty much solve that issue.

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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2013, 11:36:12 PM »
I have been weaving in and out of this thread- mostly due (to the inevitable) off topic discussion (And whatever you want to call it) but.....

Yeah- there are some great ideas- Mage Wars could be the first game to ever let the players have their own personal mage cards! (Looked over by judges obviously, so that nothing is Overly Offencive.

Saying that: Im fine with how it is. You can be unhappy, he can be unhappy, she can be unhappy.....He-She can be unhappy.......I dont care. Its just a card. I dont expect anyone to make everyone happy. And it would be impossible to do so. I wont even get into the semantics of what that would entail- but know I am thinking about it. (And I dont want to argue about it)

(I just keep posting since I like some of the ideas out of here)
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Where does my greatest enemy lie?
Within Shad0w.

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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2013, 08:37:38 AM »
Firstly, on topic: yes, a "PC Booster Pack" of new image cards, available at retailers who sell Mage Wars at cost + distribution + retailer mark-up, would be a great idea. Although I doubt it will sell well enough to interest physical retailers so it will probably have to be sold at the online store for the US market. So well done, Trotsky, for putting this out there.

Now to the more interesting (for me) linked topic, the depiction of women in geek culture, which Kich hijacked this thread which then prompted me to write a polemic (it was dead at work) explaining why it happens (not excusing it), trying to diffuse the gravity of this "sin" (it's just another imaginary world with no bearing to reality, get a life!) but also sympathetic to the feminist view that these fantasy depictions objectify and subjugate women in real life.

Kich's reply deserves its own reply. And this is not it. There is alot I'd like to discuss with him, like conventions in depicting the female form in classical art (both clothed and nude), the deification of the female form (and not just the child-bearing hips Gaia sculpture I think he references) or the absurdity of the female breastplate (let alone the plate mail bras traditionally worn by Valkyrie in Wagnerian opera) because armour designed for women just did not exist (Joan of Arc was a flat-chested tomboy). These are all worthy intellectual discussions but frankly, I need to do some research before crossing swords with Kich's intimidating intellect and knowledge on this topic.

Although, as a fellow Marketing graduate, I am surprised he's applying Portfolio Marketing principles to a Niche Category like Mage Wars. I'm sorry, Rich, but the Irish Potato Famine just has no bearing on this topic. The main threat to Mage Wars is not some gestalt hatred towards it by their similarly-minded target market because of some future faux pas, a zeitgeist backlash resulting in a boycott. The main Marketing threats to Mage Wars are:
(a) becoming staid - you are spot on about neophilia - but combating this creates its own problems (see below)
(b) being supplanted by a more streamlined version with holistic vision (defined school traits, necrotic, sonic etc)
(c) being supplanted by an inferior version with better distribution and/or marketing (VHS vs. superior Betamax)
(d) the LCG issue of increasing barrier to entry with every expansion (especially if expansions are cross-school).
(e) technology, not creating a tablet-friendly interface that the competition already do better (I can name a few)

Those are the real Marketing Threats here (my SWOT analysis) so let's not muddy the water by alarmist what-if scenarios of geek culture suddenly expressing their feminist solidarity due to a plague-ridden potato/card. Geek culture, propagated by the media and merchandise that panders to it, is sadly (I'm not happy with it) a mirror of the prejudices of that peer group. If we are talking about clothing Planeswalkers in Magic, a far more prevalent game which may influence society (but who are we kidding?), then maybe this issue would be more important.

But this is a niche game within a niche segment of society! As a vocal critic of AW in many areas, I've grown to admire this small Dallas-based indie games company for staying true to the principle of Freedom Of Speech on their forum and the polite restraint (biting their tongues until they bleed) in their replies. If they were based in Mecca, the women will all be wearing a hijab! I always viewed Mage Wars art as just the local cultural norm thus my advice to them was to be more sophisticated in its depictions to appeal to broader markets. Feminists think female Islamic dress subjugates women as chattel yet scantily clad images exploit women. I guess that leaves just dungarees... (Oh dear, scientists have proved sense of humour and feminism exhibit an inverse correlation.)

No, this isn't a rebuttal of Kich's erudite well-reasoned arguments (even if the Potato Famine allegory was skilled sophistry). Rather, this post is aimed at Aylin and others who share her idealism (see, I added a positive tone).

Firstly, no Aylin, I didn't know you were a woman but forgive me if I say that it didn't surprise me (and I suspect I'm not alone). Does that make me guilty of stereotyping? Most definitely. We all are. Stereotypes exist because they are commonplace in that segment. Maybe it was the way that in 3 incensed sequential posts, you launched into attacking Laddin for defending the Forcemaster, Imaginator for asking for less heated debate and then me, who was actually sympathetic to your viewpoint (explicit in my preceding posts on page 1), attacking me purely because I dared to give reasons why sexism exists in geek culture and then instead of hitting AW over the head with a "it's wrong! it''s wrong! it's wrong!" rant, I gave them sound marketing reasons why they should change their female art depiction (a sales incentive, not a moral reason that has little commercial value considering their target segment is broadly in line with their art). Because I don't exhibit the tunnel vision of a militant but tried to diagnose why this happened before giving a prognosis then prescribing a course of action that appeals to their commercial acumen, this "work within the system" approach was obviously abhorrent to you, Aylin, and in your righteous wrath, you lashed out and turned a Sympathiser into an Enemy. And this is a common occurrence with militants, they do their cause harm with their alienating militancy. So, no I wasn't surprised that you're a woman.

I have unfair preconceptions you're young and precocious because of your former sobriquet, "AylinIsAwesome", so I'm mindful that I need to don kid gloves here. I think we all have preconceptions that some posters, even on this thread, are quite young (yet visibly talented in many ways), and that is why some of the sillier suggestions are not harshly put down. Well, sadly there is no need to don kid gloves with me, I give as good as I get and my only issue so far is that I was personally attacked to which I made a flip exasperated comment that is in no way insulting (and reflected my change of position from sympathetic to hostile), certainly not aimed at Kich who had not replied prior yet quoted it to support his rhetoric - and I was singled out for sanctioning by forum admin! This to me is symptomatic of the positive discrimination that is rife in society, the "we better go out of our way to side with the minority else we'll be accused of some ism/phobia/normative suffix". And so the silent majority (barring Wildhorn's satire) are just kowtowed into following a militant agenda. Self-censorship is seditious. Freedom of speech works both ways.

I did refer to you Aylin, as a "he" and I apologise if this offended you but I was simply playing probabilities there. I note many rulebooks these days have a disclaimer that the use of the male pronoun in their rules text (written like legal contracts for precision) is not in any way meant to denigrate or subjugate women etc. When did simple convenient conventions in our language become a political statement that we need to worry about "Hu-person" and "Person-kind" in case we offend a vocal feminist minority? I find it sad that games books have to add this disclaimer. Perhaps language will end up with a de-humanising "it" (which is pangender/transgender/agender or whatever it is) instead of the default "he". Be assured that now I know your gender, Aylin, I will not repeat the mistake.

Now I find myself at a quandary. I was brought up to be chivalrous towards women, to open doors for them, offer to carry their groceries and give up my seat on public transport for them. That's just the old-fashioned way that I was brought up. Yet living in London for most of my life except for the last 7 years, I've had so many bad experiences following those principles, angry women scolding me and in one case even hitting me ("never hit a woman" is one principle I will never break) because I dared to condescend them that now, due to those militant feminists, I don't follow those principles anymore. Yet I feel sad that the world has lost that sense of chivalry. So apologies if my reply here lacks chivalry, Aylin, but you can blame your sisters for that.

The reason I'm posting here is because of what happened last night. It has relevance, Aylin, so please bear with me.

I live in Brighton, UK, a smaller-scale San Francisco of England (replete with hills), a den of left wing hippies and liberal "weirdos" in a county/state that is mainly right wing (I believe Seattle and San Antonio are similar?). Yes, both me and my friends are liberals - but most of us are not militant liberals, we live in the real world built upon unsavoury compromises, where change is achieved in small increments (my anarchist friends will disagree here).

So there was I at a games-playing friend's Birthday Party (he also owns Mage Wars). Almost all the blokes there were hardcore games geeks plus girlfriends (Brighton modernists don't marry), some of whom play games. Some of us ended up in a room playing "Spartacus: A Game of Blood of Treachery", a game I can safely mention here as it is multi-player (so not a competitor for Mage Wars) and its arena duels (where players bet on and influence with intrigue cards) can be used as an entry for the far more sophisticated Mage Wars. Anyway, it's a fun game with simple clever mechanics but it's based on probably the most politically incorrect TV series ever, gloriously so that it achieves self-parody status. It's best played with bottles of JD and trying to insert pig-Latin into your roleplaying as one of the conniving Houses. Here's a link to it on BGG.

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/128671/spartacus-a-game-of-blood-treachery

The winner was a good friend, a girl (she fluttered her eyelashes with the weaker-willed drunker players to win it) and at the end, she commented that it was great to play a game where there is so much hunky almost naked male flesh while all the mostly female Slave assets were clothed ((I had gone down the brothel strategy minting money like Littlefinger). Only then did it hit the rest of us just how homoerotic the game is with all its near-naked male flesh yet all the women are clothed (no doubt, to prevent uproar from feminists). But any such imbalance is perfectly fine in society these days.

Of course this was less than a day since my prior post so, the game having just finished, we got to discussing this double standards in society. How it's perfectly fine to have Diet Coke and similar ads that leer at hunky men but nobody dares the opposite. How HBO, with its excellent shows, insist on inserting unnecessary sex scenes which are not essential to the story (Littlefinger's brothel had little part in the story, HBO!) but are clever in that they include full frontal male nudity as well to deflect the ire of feminists. This led on to "Oz", one of HBO's early hits, based in a male prison with only male nudity and we all agreed they could never ever do that show based in a woman's prison. The homosexuality and rape depicted in Oz would have been deemed exploitative were it based in a woman's prison. Double standards.

There were areas where we were divided. Some of us thought Sin City was exploitative. These were those who had not read the comics I guess. Now I don't agree with Frank Miller's politics (I'm more an Alan Moore left wing hippy) but I was one of those who argued Sin City is not reality, it's a stylistic piece that harks back to a simpler world of brutal chivalry, and as such should not be taken seriously. It's art so can get away with it as it appeals to a more sophisticated palate like the plentiful female nudes in art. Also that the final act (The Big Fat Kill) even empowers women, who are depicted as far more dangerous than the bumbling men. But I have to confess that the room (we had moved to the living room so many there) was split over Sin City. Hey, Brighton is left wing and some of the hate was probably aimed at Miller.

I then got onto the recent Mage Wars debate and because not all of us played, we got out the host's the copy. There was consensus that the art style is retro therefore the viewer has to accept retro sensibilities in keeping with that style. Nobody was particularly offended but the common consensus was that AW should "play it safe" (a horrible admission of the bullying power of vocal militant feminists) by adding a few scantily clad men and few fully clothed women.

The animator among us explained that the reason women are often caricatured with ample bosoms, hourglass figures and naked thighs is so that classic femininity can be accentuated and they are immediately recognised as female. His theory is linked to my Fantasy Sees Things In Black And White theory. Unless the concept is meant to be deliberately asexual (say an Odo-like changeling), Fantasy does not do androgyny well. We only have to see the horrible snide comments made about Lucy Lawless as Xena to see it (as for an effeminate male...). Fantasy is exactly what it says on the tin: a fantasy where the men are muscled and the women are classically feminine.

Passing around some of the cards through the mixed gender audience, only the Priestess really drew negative comments, but this was because she was meant to be Holy, implied Lawful Good, and such immodest depiction is not in line with such religious beliefs, especially when contrasted to the Priest. Everybody liked the Red Sonja style armoured angels that are Guardian Angel, Samandriel, Selesius and Valshalla (as the latter's tiny depiction and elemental feel excused being the least clothed), even when I contrasted them to the toga-robed male Gray Angel (who one person felt gave him a martyr-like appearance, not even knowing the game mechanic). Being Brighton with its liberal attitudes to sexuality, everybody loved the Forcemaster as a "bad-ass" girl. The host did not have the Druid set and, worried I would kill the conversation dead, the last card I handed around was the Jokhtari Beastmaster...

Now I've stated (before Aylin attacked me) that, while coloured myself and I'm not in the least bit offended, I felt AW opened themselves up to criticism with the female black savage image facing the white colonialist. But what I hadn't considered is: "how else are you supposed to put a fantasy spin on something that actually happened in history?". The alternative would be to never accept that this happened and that atrocities were committed in the name of crusading Catholicism - and such denial is worse, not far from Holocaust denial. This was argued by a female games player who's quite an activist (Brighton voted the UK's only Green Party member in Parliament) though we joked that she only supported the card because most of her girlfriends are black. However, it does bring up a valid point: should Arcane Wonders be applauded for bravely transposing Fantasy to a milieu that doesn't flatter the white oppressors, armed with their "Holy" light that burns? Is the Holy of Etheria similar to the ultra Lawful edicts of the Vorgons in Babylon 5, so law-imposing that it becomes fascist? Having been exposed to this alternate view, I'm starting to see hidden depth between Malakai's Fire and Demonic Fire.

I still think Mage Wars should have played it safe on the race front. Maybe made Forcemaster oriental without being accused of being racist by promoting that racial stereotype (it's difficult to potray a race in a card without caricaturising it). Maybe made Sir Corazin or one of the Angels black. But actually, if you think about it, exploring the wrongness of crusading colonialism under the pretext of a fantasy, was actually quite brave. They could have played it safe and just stuck to European Temperate Zone Medieval creatures and structures. But instead they took a risk (just like with the Necromancer book) and provoked a debate on it

I can tell you that the night, fuelled by alcohol etc, meandered onto other weighty linked topics. But I ended the night with these thoughts.

1. There is a lot of double standards in current society, pushed upon us by a vocal militant minority agenda.

2. Art depiction, especially in a small card, needs to accentuate features and this caricature may cause offence.

3. It is better to provoke discussion than censor it and deny contrary opinions exist or the past never occurred.

As for what you wrote, Aylin, I've written too much already and can't be bothered to rebut it (I'd rather test my wits against Kich) because I doubt anyone can change your views so all you achieved by blindly attacking me is to alienate a blatant sympathiser (and probably others). I know I am in no way out of synch with my own liberal peers, it is you who is the extremist. I will however end with just one quote.

I was shocked that someone who claims to be in a minority group would give the go-ahead to discriminate against another minority group.

This is typical militant hyperbole which is self-defeating when revealed to be fraudulent. I have never advocated discriminating against women (I believe the UK's recent Paternity Rights Bill will help to remove the Glass Ceiling that exists for careerist women because it makes men just as much a liability with their new Paternity Rights as women, the reason for inequity in the workplace). Not finding an image offensive is not discrimination, madam. And I also do not consider women to be a "minority group".
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye. And then it's just fun.

Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2013, 10:51:16 AM »
Deckbuilder,

That's not what your earlier post sounded like to me the first time I read it. It sounded like an angry sexist rant. It was way too long and full of irritated/frustrated language to be perceived as much else, especially late at night and in the context it was posted in. I somewhat suspected that you had miscommunicated, and it seems like I was right.

I've done the same thing many times, where I write a really long essay-post and a few points color everyone's perception of what I wrote. It happens because the brain is constantly trying to predict what's about to be said. Or at least last time I listened to a Science Friday story on  NPR about it that's what I remember hearing.

And I suppose it's not super important right now in this conversation, but I do feel like pointing out that sex, gender and sexuality are three different things. A person can be agendered and still be of the male or female sex, and they can be homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, etc.

And Aylin, Deckbuilder might have seemed to say otherwise, but nobody here said that bigotry or prejudice is good. That being said, prejudices are attitudes and beliefs, and people don't exactly choose what they believe.

The whole concept of male chivalry is often condescending and very insulting to women, yes, but it is also well-intentioned.

It is similar to how people with disabilities are treated. To use a somewhat extreme example, when someone grabs the handles of a wheelchair user and starts steering them around, the person steering doesn't think of it as assault, like if someone grabbed their legs and started steering them around. They honestly believe they're being helpful. There is currently a disabled persons civil rights movement in full swing right now, and well-intentioned injustice and discrimination is IMO, possibly one of the biggest obstacles it faces.

But I don't expect a disabled mage or creature to make an appearance any time soon, and I don't feel any reason to be terribly offended by it, and I certainly don't consider it discrimination. It's just a game after all.

However, I do think some hindering traits could work quite well for balancing some future mages, and could be fun to use while also adding more depth and flavor to the game. I imagine an elderly seer with the lumbering trait, or a metal smith mage with extremely low life that uses Construct conjurations that attach to themself and can intercept attacks  aimed at them. Or even a bulky lumbering mountain giant mage that has the number of spells they can prepare each round reduced by one, and occupies two adjacent zones at all times.

Or if you want to get really interesting, an extra-dimensional mage with an ability similar to ACG's "Blink", who has to pay mana in order to move normally—sort of a magical Parkinson's disease, if you will.

And there's no reason to use "it" when singular-they has been commonly used for centuries. It's only relatively recently in history that a bunch of very sexist grammar nazis got together and banned its use.

I still think it would be awesome if we could make our own mage art. It might also be a good way to get more people to invest in mage wars. Since this isn't a TCG, there aren't bunches of vendors making a profit off of buying and selling mage wars cards. However, if there were people buying blank mage cards, painting mage artwork on them and then selling them... that would be amazing. You could even make Mage Wars card sleeves with different frame designs painted on the clear side, so that mage artwork can be framed.

Not to mention that blank cards are amazing for alternate variants and home brews.

The possibilities are making me drool...
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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2013, 12:12:41 PM »
Imaginator.
You call my post a rant for discussing Frazetta and other Fantasy heritage in an intellectual manner?
But Aylin's hectoring, preachy holier-than-thou "you're wrong because you're wrong" tirade was not a rant?
At last, someone with a sense of irony - oh you have a wicked sense of humour!

You say it was too long but would you attack a book before reading the twist in the second half?
I assume Aylin read the whole of my preceding posts before she launched her attack on me?

However...

I advise MW to appeal to more than Middle America's White Male Heterosexuals if they are to break new markets.

The occasional humourous subversion of these cliche stereotypes would be great.
Everything is po-faced, even flavour text, that this lack of poking fun at itself makes depictions more dangerous.
We see this role-reversal in Pixar animation where the beautiful damsel rescues the prince (it's become cliche).
There is absolutely no such subversion in Mage Wars: it's so straightforwardly stereotypical, it's embarrassing.
Geeks are blessed with intelligence and frankly, some of it may condescend them.

I would bet that MW sales per capita in Middle America are better than the Coasts.
I know politically America has become 2 countries but is it also the same culturally?
Here in the UK (and I bet our German posters may agree), sexism is a major issue.
MW can play the "oh it's so delightfully retro chic it's avant garde" card only for so long.
It really needs to break out of its anachronisms if it wants to appeal to other societies.

So my position on Mage Wars art depiction of females is that it needs to step up a gear.

Add humour so that any perceived sexism can be deflected as lacking a sense of humour.
Make it work both ways - yes, that does mean an armoured Xena and a Tarzan-like himbo.
Subvert stereotypes (carnivorous plants was a lost opportunity for humourous vegetarian diet flavour text).
Don't patronise fans: it's a complex game and its fans are proud of their intelligence so pander to it instead.

In short, please be more subtle with your female depictions?
Because currently there may be US Coastal and European markets that view its retro art as anachronistic.
Retro is a fashion with no longevity unless tongue-in-cheek.

My grandmother uses racist language; I think many grandparents do and we accept it as generation culture.
When I look at Mage Wars art, I view it as Middle America, still stuck in Frazetta's scantily clad nubile women.
Just like my grandmother with her racist language, no malice is intended, it's just a culturally associated trope.
That's why I am less stressed than Kich on this - I just hope a more international perspective is adopted soon.

If that was me pussy-footing trying to get change through reason, to ask for small changes not earth-shaking differences that jar with existing artwork, and certainly not calling Arcane Wonders sexist bigots like she does on their forum (what incredible chutzpah!), I then go on to make my position crystal clear (this before she made her three pronged attack on 3 posters).

Yes, she is an awesome-looking clothed female Jedi/Sith Lord, proof that you don't need to keep them in bikinis.

However, would it be unfair to say that this isn't always the case?
I don't have the cards but is Samandriel (most powerful female creature) in a bikini like Jokhtari and Priestess?
This is so dangerous posting at work without the cards but I'm sure I'd subconsciously spotted a subtext here.
Women in Etheria prefer to sunbathe, not shop (oh dear, I'm gonna get clobbered by the PC brigade for that).

As Kich said elsewhere about a male and female of a new race: "he's dressed for the streets. she's dressed for the sheets".

Hey, this isn't my battle, it's Kich's: I just understand both views (you know what sitting on the fence gives you).

I'm personally fine with the art but the marketer in me thinks you should tone it down - or better still subvert it.
Imagine a female posing like in Michaelangelo's Thinker?
Or a male emerging from a shell like in Botticelli's Venus?
Ok, both too cultural as in-jokes but I'm sure there are US archetypes you can subvert.
It would just help to knowingly poke fun at fantasy tropes.
A bearded Dwarf Dowager berserker, with female breastplate, would solve that age old mystery...

It's really difficult because if you take a risk (like the Necromancer book which I love), you'll offend some people.
But if you don't take risks, you become stale and cliche to your "seen it all before" jaded market.
All I am proposing is a bit more humour, subverting what we fantasy fans expect - but in a way that doesn't jar.

Hey, I'm personally fine with your art (Nightshade Lotus is an incredibly beautiful masterpiece).
I just think you could alienate unexplored markets so should make Etheria feel less old-fashion.

So far the only non-white face is a savage barbarian shaman (female so scantily clad) who resists the colonising crusaders.
I'm not offended by it at all (in fact, I've said Kumanjaro is seeped in thematic strength).
But you can see how that sole depiction could be viewed, a very white colonial mindset.
All we're missing is a mincing elf bard and his spikey-haired warrior-maiden bodyguard and we'll have a full set!

The bottom line is this: if the roles were reversed and I had attacked her like she attacked me (just go read her one-sided carefully edited rant again, just after she attacked you and Laddin, oh she was on a roll), if I attacked her in a similar fashion, do you think I would be still allowed on this forum?

But that's just her militancy, it's understandable. What I take issue with is she attacked me for giving a balanced view  and it was me who got taken to task for an exasperated comment (I'm not even religious, we're mostly agnostic here in godless Britain). I know Kich mischievously sandwiched his post with references to my comment that was obviously not aimed at him (as he had not made any intervening comments) and that this was taken to mean it was offensive in some way. Well done, Kich, for selling them a feigned insult that could never have been aimed at you. Still, it was me who was singled out for sanctioning, symptomatic of default positive discrimination when dealing with minority activists (feminists are a minority, women are not), afraid of being tarred as bigoted. And such knee jerk reactions are dangerous!

Freedom of speech works both ways. Except when it doesn't. "All view are equal. But some are more equal than others."
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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2013, 12:38:13 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTLwiccIOxI

How about we all enjoy this song that makes me think of Shad0w.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 12:45:56 PM by DarthDadaD20 »
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
It has been around since the dawn of time,
it follows your loved ones as well as mine,
takes the form of a mountain as well as a flower,
it cannot be outrun by the greatest of power.
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
Within Shad0w.

Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2013, 12:52:17 PM »

Imaginator.
You call my post a rant for discussing Frazetta and other Fantasy heritage in an intellectual manner?
But Aylin's hectoring, preachy holier-than-thou "you're wrong because you're wrong" tirade was not a rant?
At last, someone with a sense of irony - oh you have a wicked sense of humour!

You say it was too long but would you attack a book before reading the twist in the second half?
I assume Aylin read the whole of my preceding posts before she launched her attack on me?

However...

I advise MW to appeal to more than Middle America's White Male Heterosexuals if they are to break new markets.

The occasional humourous subversion of these cliche stereotypes would be great.
Everything is po-faced, even flavour text, that this lack of poking fun at itself makes depictions more dangerous.
We see this role-reversal in Pixar animation where the beautiful damsel rescues the prince (it's become cliche).
There is absolutely no such subversion in Mage Wars: it's so straightforwardly stereotypical, it's embarrassing.
Geeks are blessed with intelligence and frankly, some of it may condescend them.

I would bet that MW sales per capita in Middle America are better than the Coasts.
I know politically America has become 2 countries but is it also the same culturally?
Here in the UK (and I bet our German posters may agree), sexism is a major issue.
MW can play the "oh it's so delightfully retro chic it's avant garde" card only for so long.
It really needs to break out of its anachronisms if it wants to appeal to other societies.

So my position on Mage Wars art depiction of females is that it needs to step up a gear.

Add humour so that any perceived sexism can be deflected as lacking a sense of humour.
Make it work both ways - yes, that does mean an armoured Xena and a Tarzan-like himbo.
Subvert stereotypes (carnivorous plants was a lost opportunity for humourous vegetarian diet flavour text).
Don't patronise fans: it's a complex game and its fans are proud of their intelligence so pander to it instead.

In short, please be more subtle with your female depictions?
Because currently there may be US Coastal and European markets that view its retro art as anachronistic.
Retro is a fashion with no longevity unless tongue-in-cheek.

My grandmother uses racist language; I think many grandparents do and we accept it as generation culture.
When I look at Mage Wars art, I view it as Middle America, still stuck in Frazetta's scantily clad nubile women.
Just like my grandmother with her racist language, no malice is intended, it's just a culturally associated trope.
That's why I am less stressed than Kich on this - I just hope a more international perspective is adopted soon.

If that was me pussy-footing trying to get change through reason, to ask for small changes not earth-shaking differences that jar with existing artwork, and certainly not calling Arcane Wonders sexist bigots like she does on their forum (what incredible chutzpah!), I then go on to make my position crystal clear (this before she made her three pronged attack on 3 posters).

Yes, she is an awesome-looking clothed female Jedi/Sith Lord, proof that you don't need to keep them in bikinis.

However, would it be unfair to say that this isn't always the case?
I don't have the cards but is Samandriel (most powerful female creature) in a bikini like Jokhtari and Priestess?
This is so dangerous posting at work without the cards but I'm sure I'd subconsciously spotted a subtext here.
Women in Etheria prefer to sunbathe, not shop (oh dear, I'm gonna get clobbered by the PC brigade for that).

As Kich said elsewhere about a male and female of a new race: "he's dressed for the streets. she's dressed for the sheets".

Hey, this isn't my battle, it's Kich's: I just understand both views (you know what sitting on the fence gives you).

I'm personally fine with the art but the marketer in me thinks you should tone it down - or better still subvert it.
Imagine a female posing like in Michaelangelo's Thinker?
Or a male emerging from a shell like in Botticelli's Venus?
Ok, both too cultural as in-jokes but I'm sure there are US archetypes you can subvert.
It would just help to knowingly poke fun at fantasy tropes.
A bearded Dwarf Dowager berserker, with female breastplate, would solve that age old mystery...

It's really difficult because if you take a risk (like the Necromancer book which I love), you'll offend some people.
But if you don't take risks, you become stale and cliche to your "seen it all before" jaded market.
All I am proposing is a bit more humour, subverting what we fantasy fans expect - but in a way that doesn't jar.

Hey, I'm personally fine with your art (Nightshade Lotus is an incredibly beautiful masterpiece).
I just think you could alienate unexplored markets so should make Etheria feel less old-fashion.

So far the only non-white face is a savage barbarian shaman (female so scantily clad) who resists the colonising crusaders.
I'm not offended by it at all (in fact, I've said Kumanjaro is seeped in thematic strength).
But you can see how that sole depiction could be viewed, a very white colonial mindset.
All we're missing is a mincing elf bard and his spikey-haired warrior-maiden bodyguard and we'll have a full set!

The bottom line is this: if the roles were reversed and I had attacked her like she attacked me (just go read her one-sided carefully edited rant again, just after she attacked you and Laddin, oh she was on a roll), if I attacked her in a similar fashion, do you think I would be still allowed on this forum?

But that's just her militancy, it's understandable. What I take issue with is she attacked me for giving a balanced view  and it was me who got taken to task for an exasperated comment (I'm not even religious, we're mostly agnostic here in godless Britain). I know Kich mischievously sandwiched his post with references to my comment that was obviously not aimed at him (as he had not made any intervening comments) and that this was taken to mean it was offensive in some way. Well done, Kich, for selling them a feigned insult that could never have been aimed at you. Still, it was me who was singled out for sanctioning, symptomatic of default positive discrimination when dealing with minority activists (feminists are a minority, women are not), afraid of being tarred as bigoted. And such knee jerk reactions are dangerous!

Freedom of speech works both ways. Except when it doesn't. "All view are equal. But some are more equal than others."

Deckbuilder, I did not call your post a rant, I said it's length and irritable, frustrated language made it strongly resemble one. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. Also, I really don't think militant is the right word to use here at all. I suspect that's part of why people are reacting so strongly and perceiving you as a bigot. Some of your word choices seem a bit aggressive. And Aylin did not attack either of us. She expressed her honest opinion just like you are doing.

In fact, it seems to me that we're all disagreeing on details but agreeing in the main points, which are that Arcane Wonders could tone down the sexist mage art a bit, that while sexist depictions of women are unfortunate, it's up to Arcane Wonders to figure out what sells best and to whom, and that there are multiple simple solutions to the issue of sexist mage art, like allowing fan made mage art.

Let's all take a step back for a moment, calm down and stop getting so sidetracked.
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DarthDadaD20

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Re: Alternative female mage art?
« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2013, 12:56:16 PM »
Well I can see somebody didn't take the time to enjoy that video I posted.... :'(
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
It has been around since the dawn of time,
it follows your loved ones as well as mine,
takes the form of a mountain as well as a flower,
it cannot be outrun by the greatest of power.
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
Within Shad0w.