June 29, 2022, 01:37:28 PM

Author Topic: FIF: Garrison Post "Preview"  (Read 24404 times)

jacksmack

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Re: FIF: Garrison Post "Preview"
« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2014, 08:32:20 AM »
Common mistake to believe that 3 dice tripple attacks are shut down by armor.

What ~13 mana creatures does 4.5 actual damage on average vs a creature with alot of armor?


Agony is a different story... not all books run this card, and few run more than 1.

Well, dark pact slayers and situationally dire wolves immediately come to mind...that's probably about it though.

But considering I can power strike an orc butcher for a total of 9 mana (with ring) and the play in question costs 16 to get about the same expected dice vs that much armor(4 vs 4.5) and about the same body (10hp, 1armor vs 9hp 2armor)...it just doesn't seem that impressive to me, at least right now.  Obviously it's worth noting that its not a perfect comparison, but in terms of pure dice output against a decently armored target I think you can do pretty much the same for less mana and end up with a very similar body (ie paying the extra 7 isn't worth it). 

Also, I think all non-holy books should run agony.  It's only 2 book points and it's extremely powerful/useful in a good many situations, at least IMO.  I run it in every non holy book I make.

Not sure where to start....

You seem to refuse data, or atleast make your own interpretation of it and further twisting it into your own perfect scenario.

Direwolfs and Dark Pact Slayers in a Warlord book? common...
(this is a Garrison Post thread which means Warlord right?)

Power strike a butcher gives 6 dice of damage = 3 actual damage on average vs infiinte armor.
Ludwig does 50% more damage than that.

Then you further mess up the premises.... Ludwig + Rouse beast = 16 mana
Orc butcher + Power strike (with  a (free apparantly) ring) = 9 mana.
The only problem here is that your Orc Butcher cannot attack where as ludwig CAN.

Another advantage of Ludwig is that he is ranged - which means the opponent cannot retaliate if you attack a guard, or protect (by guarding the zone) the target you want to attack.


Im not saying Ludwig doesnt have downsides - because he certainly does. But lets not take his advantages away from him.

Arlemus

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Re: FIF: Garrison Post "Preview"
« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2014, 03:43:25 PM »
Common mistake to believe that 3 dice tripple attacks are shut down by armor.

What ~13 mana creatures does 4.5 actual damage on average vs a creature with alot of armor?


Agony is a different story... not all books run this card, and few run more than 1.

Well, dark pact slayers and situationally dire wolves immediately come to mind...that's probably about it though.

But considering I can power strike an orc butcher for a total of 9 mana (with ring) and the play in question costs 16 to get about the same expected dice vs that much armor(4 vs 4.5) and about the same body (10hp, 1armor vs 9hp 2armor)...it just doesn't seem that impressive to me, at least right now.  Obviously it's worth noting that its not a perfect comparison, but in terms of pure dice output against a decently armored target I think you can do pretty much the same for less mana and end up with a very similar body (ie paying the extra 7 isn't worth it). 

Also, I think all non-holy books should run agony.  It's only 2 book points and it's extremely powerful/useful in a good many situations, at least IMO.  I run it in every non holy book I make.

Not sure where to start....

You seem to refuse data, or atleast make your own interpretation of it and further twisting it into your own perfect scenario.

Direwolfs and Dark Pact Slayers in a Warlord book? common...
(this is a Garrison Post thread which means Warlord right?)

Power strike a butcher gives 6 dice of damage = 3 actual damage on average vs infiinte armor.
Ludwig does 50% more damage than that.

Then you further mess up the premises.... Ludwig + Rouse beast = 16 mana
Orc butcher + Power strike (with  a (free apparantly) ring) = 9 mana.
The only problem here is that your Orc Butcher cannot attack where as ludwig CAN.

Another advantage of Ludwig is that he is ranged - which means the opponent cannot retaliate if you attack a guard, or protect (by guarding the zone) the target you want to attack.


Im not saying Ludwig doesnt have downsides - because he certainly does. But lets not take his advantages away from him.

First of all, I'm not refuting anything.  You seem to have missed the part where I said it's "obviously worth noting that it's not a perfect comparison," AKA my scenario ISN'T perfect, so say I'm "twisting" info for my "perfect" comparison is just a farce.  I literally said it wasn't perfect, I don't know why you feel the need to be such an ass about it.

Also, your question was "What ~13 mana creatures does 4.5 actual damage on average vs a creature with alot of armor?".  There were no stipulations to that question, IE they have to make the most sense for a warlord book, so I took it at face value.  If that's not how you wanted me to view/answer the question, I'm sorry you feel that way.

I know my comparison wasn't perfect, as I had INITIALLY stated, but it was just meant to show that you can get SIMILAR dice for a lot less mana, and based on that, I was skeptical.

And okay, lets say I don't have the ring, it's 1 more mana.  10 vs 16.  You're still paying 6 more mana for 1.5 more dice.  Doesn't seem worth it, but I KNOW the 2 situations aren't that simple.





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Zuberi

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Re: FIF: Garrison Post "Preview"
« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2014, 04:18:19 PM »
Let's try and keep things civil, guys. We should talk about the facts and not each other. Personal comments won't get us anywhere.

With [mwcard=FWC10]Ludwig Boltstorm[/mwcard] I think we can all agree that with his armor and life he is a little squishy for his price point. Not more so than other ranged combatants, really though. The main question seems to be if his attack is worthwhile though.

Looking at the extremes of facing an opposing creature with either 0 armor or infinite armor (aka Resilient) then only an attack that does 9+ dice of damage would be equivalent (or has a direct damage trait like Burn or Rot to compensate). No other creature deals 9+ dice of damage for the casting cost of 13 mana, nor do any have a trait that can compensate enough to rival Ludwig at these extremes. Even if we throw other spells to buff their damage into the mix, I'm having a hard time finding a creature that will be able to put out this level of damage every single round without going over a total expenditure of 13 mana, plus then we are investing more actions into the mix as well (summoning + buffing).

Against an armor value in between the extremes, it would still require at least 8 dice to compete. Now, other traits like Piercing can help lower this number as well, though. Even with these lower standards, it is very difficult to find any other creature who rivals Ludwig for only a 13 mana investment, although buffing one up to this level for that price may be more possible.

Thus, I concur that Ludwig has an extremely good attack in terms of damage for his level of investment. However, he is squishy, his attack is severely limited by the 1-1 range, and he is very susceptible to things like Agony, Aegis, and Weak. Whether all of this is worth including him in your spellbook is kind of a matter of opinion. Personally, the 1-1 range is what excludes him from my spellbooks because I find that very difficult to coordinate effectively without a lot of babysitting. But it's not impossible to do.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 04:20:09 PM by Zuberi »

Wildhorn

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Re: FIF: Garrison Post "Preview"
« Reply #48 on: May 14, 2014, 04:57:31 PM »
The thing is that its attack is very good, with Armory will become even more powerful while he will also get sturdier. When he gets in the arena he can't be ignored. Yes he is vulnerable to dice reduction but it means opponent used ressources on him. Yet he would still be useful to get ride of Forcefield/Block/Reverse Attack. Its attack range might be 1-1 but it just means he is some kind of guardian turret. He makes 4/12 zones very dangerous.

sIKE

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Re: FIF: Garrison Post "Preview"
« Reply #49 on: May 14, 2014, 07:37:35 PM »
Add in the Ranged Battle Order from the Dwarf Warlord and that first attack gets Piercing +2...
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echephron

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Re: FIF: Garrison Post "Preview"
« Reply #50 on: May 14, 2014, 07:46:00 PM »
sike, all the attacks of the triplestrike would gain piercing+2, making crossbow dude quite powerful. edit: my bad i may not have understood you meant his ranged attack rather than the first roll of his ranged attack
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 07:53:28 PM by echephron »
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IndyPendant

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Re: FIF: Garrison Post "Preview"
« Reply #51 on: May 14, 2014, 09:02:04 PM »
Actually, it's worth noting that Piercing +X doesn't have the same limitations as Melee +X and Ranged +X.  So, would the Piercing +2 apply to each damage roll he makes, then?  (I was going to just say it would, but then I realized it isn't quite so crystal clear...)

Also, I'm not sure where to put this, but in looking this factoid up, I noticed that on Page 6 of the Rules Supplement Codex, under the heading "OR" Attacks, it says "...Ludwig Boltstorm's...attack can have either the Sweeping trait or..."  Should be Triplestrike instead of Sweeping, correct?

echephron

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Re: FIF: Garrison Post "Preview"
« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2014, 09:15:34 PM »
piercing applies to all attacks, but ranged +x does not
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sIKE

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Re: FIF: Garrison Post "Preview"
« Reply #53 on: May 14, 2014, 09:18:36 PM »
piercing applies to all attacks, but ranged +x does not

So its even better than I thought!
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isel

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Re: FIF: Garrison Post "Preview"
« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2014, 10:14:11 PM »
Very good this "preview", now i need (i remember another time) xd xd) another "preview" that said

Treebond: Druid can treebond with plant creatures and conjurations, whe she use treebond with a creature plant she gains +4 innate life, Lifebond +2 and Melee +1, if she stay in the same zone she and the plant creature gain an additional melee +1 , and if this creature is torgorath gain a quick melee attack xd


Zuberi

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Re: FIF: Garrison Post "Preview"
« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2014, 10:21:16 PM »
Actually, it's worth noting that Piercing +X doesn't have the same limitations as Melee +X and Ranged +X.  So, would the Piercing +2 apply to each damage roll he makes, then?  (I was going to just say it would, but then I realized it isn't quite so crystal clear...)

Also, I'm not sure where to put this, but in looking this factoid up, I noticed that on Page 6 of the Rules Supplement Codex, under the heading "OR" Attacks, it says "...Ludwig Boltstorm's...attack can have either the Sweeping trait or..."  Should be Triplestrike instead of Sweeping, correct?

It would indeed affect every attack. Combine his battle orders with Armory and Ludwig suddenly has Piercing +3  on all three attacks of his Triplestrike. Pretty powerful combination.

You are also correct that there is a typo on page 6 in the Official Rules and Codex Supplement. It still adequately explains the rule it is meant to exemplify, it just doesn't match what traits the card actually possesses.

Arlemus

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Re: FIF: Garrison Post "Preview"
« Reply #56 on: May 14, 2014, 10:32:49 PM »
Very good this "preview", now i need (i remember another time) xd xd) another "preview" that said

Treebond: Druid can treebond with plant creatures and conjurations, whe she use treebond with a creature plant she gains +4 innate life, Lifebond +2 and Melee +1, if she stay in the same zone she and the plant creature gain an additional melee +1 , and if this creature is torgorath gain a quick melee attack xd

 ::) This again...
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Re: FIF: Garrison Post "Preview"
« Reply #57 on: May 15, 2014, 03:36:34 AM »
When will the errata'd version be available for download with the other errata'd cards?

isel

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Re: FIF: Garrison Post "Preview"
« Reply #58 on: May 15, 2014, 09:23:38 AM »
Very good this "preview", now i need (i remember another time) xd xd) another "preview" that said

Treebond: Druid can treebond with plant creatures and conjurations, whe she use treebond with a creature plant she gains +4 innate life, Lifebond +2 and Melee +1, if she stay in the same zone she and the plant creature gain an additional melee +1 , and if this creature is torgorath gain a quick melee attack xd

 ::) This again...


Sorry, only fight for my poor druid, hard times comes to her for too many burn xd xd, dont worry i try not to boring with this, i give you my word, sorry.

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Re: FIF: Garrison Post "Preview"
« Reply #59 on: May 15, 2014, 09:43:34 AM »
When will the errata'd version be available for download with the other errata'd cards?

What do you mean by download? The image is right there in the article.