September 19, 2020, 08:38:06 AM

Author Topic: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(  (Read 19596 times)

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2014, 05:43:47 PM »
This promotion would be banned from PAX, which is one of the big 3 con orgs in the USA, so I don't think there's any way this wasn't going to be controversial.
Never heard of it....
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

Cnoedel

  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 149
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2014, 06:27:39 AM »
RingKichard please explain what the PAX is and why the promotion would be banned?

I have to make some adjustment to my innitial critic - Toni is not doing this against her will thus my point is not that strong and as i mentioned before AW is not the worst case to expose sexism. (So I somewhat agree with sIke and Imaginator)

What bothers me is her approach (which may be part of the promotion, since she should represent a new player) because she acts somehere between dull and flat towards the game and it looks like she is only there because she is a female.

To silverclagrizzly: If the camera ould show his crotch and he would act overmanly, yes i would consider it sexist

To Lord0fWinter: This is an advertisment for mage wars, only secondarly aimed to her fans, it's not her in privat showing off her MW-box she just got. She is getting paid to do this.
"I close my eyes and seize it
 I clench my fists and beat it
 I light my torch and burn it
 I am the beast I worship..."

DTHGRPSBWR

http://absurdurbannihilist.tumblr.com/
my blog.

lettucemode

  • Guest
Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2014, 09:18:47 AM »
http://prime.paxsite.com/
http://east.paxsite.com/

I haven't been out to PAX Prime in Washington, but I've attended PAX East a few times and they fill up the Boston Convention Center, there's likely 50,000+ people there. For all events, tickets are sold out within a few hours of them going up. They recently had a convention down in Australia and I heard that sold out too.

It's a con for mostly video games, focused on consumers (as opposed to GDC which focuses on developers), but they have a sizable tabletop area too. kich's comment refers to the fact that they don't allow "booth babes" at the show because they want to be family-friendly since people of all ages attend. For example, when Lollipop Chainsaw came out, they asked the model wearing the cheerleader outfit to stay inside the game's booth rather than be out on the floor.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 09:20:56 AM by lettucemode »

Cnoedel

  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 149
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2014, 09:37:29 AM »
Following my own logic I have to consider booth babes as "sexist" too, perhaps they are but somehow I fail to feel so, same goes with Cosplay. Now that is something I want to figure out!


To be honest, something about the video bothers me, I am not sure if it is sexism or just because it looks cheesy. This thread shows me that I am not alone in my reaction to the video but might be wrong regarding my sexism statement.
"I close my eyes and seize it
 I clench my fists and beat it
 I light my torch and burn it
 I am the beast I worship..."

DTHGRPSBWR

http://absurdurbannihilist.tumblr.com/
my blog.

silverclawgrizzly

  • Charlotte Mage Warrior
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2480
  • Banana Stickers 4
    • View Profile
Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2014, 02:07:01 PM »
Ah but this video doesn't just show off her female parts at all. Yes there's an over the shoulder shot but she's not exactly showing off her boobs, they're in the shot but that doesn't make it a boob shot. She's also not acting overly girlish in this video. It really is just her opening up a box. Nothing more and nothing less.

Why would you think she was doing this against her will? It's not like Laddinface is in the video holding a gun to her head forcing her to like Mage Wars is it? She obviously got paid for this, and she just as obviously choose to do the job of her own free will.

Now booth babes people have argued for and against since their beginning and I imagine they'll continue to do so. Yes it's women using their looks to attract customers for a business, but these women choose to take a job that pays money of their own free will. Is using sex appeal inherently sexist? I wouldn't say so but there have been plenty of people on both sides of that argument for years so who knows.
  • Favourite Mage: Straywood Beastmaster
What we must all remember is no matter the game we were all newbies at one point.

Cnoedel

  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 149
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2014, 02:32:10 PM »
I never thought that she was doing it against her will, but if she did it would be more controversial  ;D

However I disagree with the over-the-shoulder-shot and her acting, again, its not the clearest situation on the "sex sells" train, but it still is there. Guess it comes down to personal impressions.

Not sure how to deal with"booth babes". I believe the topics are related to each other and I have to think about it.

"I close my eyes and seize it
 I clench my fists and beat it
 I light my torch and burn it
 I am the beast I worship..."

DTHGRPSBWR

http://absurdurbannihilist.tumblr.com/
my blog.

Shad0w

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2934
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2014, 02:46:12 PM »
Well here we are again.

 Merriam Webster defines sexism as - unfair treatment of people because of their sex; especially : unfair treatment of women

1:  prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially   :  discrimination against women
2:  behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex



Lets look further at 2: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes

So what is a Stereotype: an often unfair and untrue belief that many people have about all people or things with a particular characteristic

Yes I will concede that some of the angels use during the film were intended to be provocativebut the video did not in any way Stereotype Toni, gamer girls, or woman in general.

I found nothing in this video even the least bit offensive.
 


"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


Quote: Shad0w the Arcmage

Shad0w

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2934
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2014, 02:55:46 PM »
I found the story from Kotaku about the PAX incident.

Warning if you found the videos with Toni offensive DO NOT open this below link.

Skimpy Outfit Gets Lollipop Chainsaw Cosplayer Asked to Change Or Leave PAX Show Floor


Even if you do not follow the link you can see what Jessica Nigri has to say about what happened by following the link below. Jessica was the cosplayer PAX asked to change.

Jessica Nigri discusses Sexism in cosplay and that PAX incident
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 03:08:42 PM by Shad0w »
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


Quote: Shad0w the Arcmage

silverclawgrizzly

  • Charlotte Mage Warrior
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2480
  • Banana Stickers 4
    • View Profile
Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2014, 03:08:40 PM »
Oh yeah I remember reading this a while back. I'll concede the pink costume in that pic is pretty revealing but then a game called Lollipop Chainsaw I don't really expect to be sensible with costume design. Do women and men get objectified in video games and pop culture in general? Oh absolutely without a doubt. Could we as a society do with toning it down some? You bet and I honestly think there's been some progress there in the past few years. I will note though that this girls costume wouldn't have batted an eye at say DragonCon but it doesn't really go heavy towards the family friendly environment.

Now looking at the video with this Toni cosplayer I say again: She's wearing a t-shirt and I think some pants. If she were in a thong and bra then yeah I'd be on the sexism side of this discussion. If some buff dude dressed as He-Man and all oiled up were doing this then yeah again sexism. But I really think the sexism point in this case simply comes from the fact that it's a girl who doesn't know much about the game. I'm not exactly Captain Political Correctness but even I noticed the cards more than her boobs in the over the shoulder shots.

Cnoedel I can understand where you're coming from(or at least I think I do) but I'll just have to agree with you that it's a matter of personal impressions here as is often the case.
  • Favourite Mage: Straywood Beastmaster
What we must all remember is no matter the game we were all newbies at one point.

Cnoedel

  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 149
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2014, 04:56:49 PM »
Thank you Shadow and Grizzly,

I read the article and saw some youtubeVideos regarding the topic and i must admit, my complains were a bit over the top.

There is no sexism involved in the video - I still dislike the Video, but not due to sexist reasons -  Hopefully I will find out what bothers me.

Excuse my emotional reaction as I first saw it, because normally when I see a MW Video, I am super hyped and amazed.
"I close my eyes and seize it
 I clench my fists and beat it
 I light my torch and burn it
 I am the beast I worship..."

DTHGRPSBWR

http://absurdurbannihilist.tumblr.com/
my blog.

silverclawgrizzly

  • Charlotte Mage Warrior
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2480
  • Banana Stickers 4
    • View Profile
Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2014, 10:06:03 PM »
Eh that's perfectly understandable. I'm not the biggest fan of the video but like Winter said earlier this Toni girl seems popular. If her blog gets people to learn about the game and buy it then cool.
  • Favourite Mage: Straywood Beastmaster
What we must all remember is no matter the game we were all newbies at one point.

Lord0fWinter

  • Warden of the North
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 623
  • Banana Stickers 7
  • www.magewars.weebly.com
    • View Profile
Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2014, 10:50:37 PM »
Eh that's perfectly understandable. I'm not the biggest fan of the video but like Winter said earlier this Toni girl seems popular. If her blog gets people to learn about the game and buy it then cool.

She posted another photo with a spellbook in it a couple days back and it got 2,000 likes and a bunch of comments. That's over 50% of how many total people like the MW fb page so I'd say the partnership is going great for getting the game out there. Granted, only about 1/5 comments were actually about the game, but hey that's still not bad.
  • Favourite Mage: Darkfenne Necromancer
Visit my Mage Wars blog at www.magewars.weebly.com, also check me out on facebook at https://www.facebook.com/MageWarsBlog and on twitter at @MageWarsBlog

Shad0w

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2934
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2014, 01:18:20 AM »
Thank you Shadow and Grizzly,

I read the article and saw some youtubeVideos regarding the topic and i must admit, my complains were a bit over the top.

There is no sexism involved in the video - I still dislike the Video, but not due to sexist reasons -  Hopefully I will find out what bothers me.

Excuse my emotional reaction as I first saw it, because normally when I see a MW Video, I am super hyped and amazed.

I will not say if I like the video or not just that I did not see the "sexism" in it.  As long is this remains a rational discussion I have no issues with continuing.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 08:37:29 AM by Shad0w »
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


Quote: Shad0w the Arcmage

Sailor Vulcan

  • Secret Identity: Imaginator
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3130
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2014, 01:43:00 AM »

Ah but this video doesn't just show off her female parts at all. Yes there's an over the shoulder shot but she's not exactly showing off her boobs, they're in the shot but that doesn't make it a boob shot. She's also not acting overly girlish in this video. It really is just her opening up a box. Nothing more and nothing less.

Why would you think she was doing this against her will? It's not like Laddinface is in the video holding a gun to her head forcing her to like Mage Wars is it? She obviously got paid for this, and she just as obviously choose to do the job of her own free will.

Now booth babes people have argued for and against since their beginning and I imagine they'll continue to do so. Yes it's women using their looks to attract customers for a business, but these women choose to take a job that pays money of their own free will. Is using sex appeal inherently sexist? I wouldn't say so but there have been plenty of people on both sides of that argument for years so who knows.

IMO a sufficiently intelligent or observant person, (or sometimes merely a straight woman or a gay man) might notice that her sex appeal has nothing to do with the game, and that a rather attractive (by some cultures' standards) woman saying that she likes Mage Wars has nothing to do with whether they, the person watching the advert will like it or not.

Such a person will notice the two stimulus being linked: the unconditioned stimulus being Toni's physical appearance, and the conditioned stimulus being Mage Wars.  They will also notice that there is no basis in reality to link their known certain attraction to Toni's physical appearance to the unknown likelihood of their finding Mage Wars attractive too.

However, the target audience of this type of advertising, while still smart in a real sense, is not wise and observant enough to realize that. It's probably aimed at slightly shallow young adult males who treat their intellect as if it's a mere substitute for masculine muscle, and who often treat strategy games as dominance contests to boost their masculine pride.

The kind of person who believes they are eating with their mouth and strategizing with their frontal cortex, when what they're really doing is eating with their frontal cortex and strategizing with their reproductive organs.

And as much as it pains me to say it, they're probably such a huge part of geek culture that we really do need more of them here if we want Mage Wars to be more successful.

If this is the best way to reach that audience, then I'm all for it. It's not arcane wonders fault if said audience is sexist and slightly shallow. People need to stop worrying so much about the expression of sexist attitudes and start worrying more about sexual discrimination. I would hazard a guess that there are probably many more women who have been victims of employment discrimination in the past two years then the number of times sexist attitudes have been expressed in the mere portrayals of women that Arcane Wonders has produced.
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster
I am Sailor Vulcan! Champion of justice and reason! And yes, I am already aware my uniform is considered flashy, unprofessional, and borderline sexually provocative for my species by most intelligent lifeforms. I did not choose this outfit. Shut up.

Shad0w

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2934
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Arcane Wonders Marketing and Sexism upsets me :(
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2014, 02:12:59 AM »

And as much as it pains me to say it, they're probably such a huge part of geek culture that we really do need more of them here if we want Mage Wars to be more successful.

If this is the best way to reach that audience, then I'm all for it. It's not arcane wonders fault if said audience is sexist and slightly shallow. People need to stop worrying so much about the expression of sexist attitudes and start worrying more about sexual discrimination. I would hazard a guess that there are probably many more women who have been victims of employment discrimination in the past two years then the number of times sexist attitudes have been expressed in the mere portrayals of women that Arcane Wonders has produced.


Well said.



@Imaginator
You still owe me a game or two since we missed the last chance.
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


Quote: Shad0w the Arcmage