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Author Topic: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction  (Read 21639 times)

Shad0w

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Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« on: July 07, 2014, 01:30:06 PM »
It is puzzle time all.


Why does [mwcard=MW1E10] Decoy[/mwcard] give back the mana when it is destroyed by [mwcard=MW1I24] Seeking Dispel[/mwcard]?

Let see who can explain it best.
If you can explain this correctly in detail I will give you 2 stickers.  8)
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blackirishguilt

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Re: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2014, 01:42:11 PM »
Both cards have 2 parts.

[mwcard=MW1I24]Seeking Dispel[/mwcard]'s clauses are:

Destroy target hidden enchantment.

and

Controller of target enchantment cannot reveal the enchantment once [mwcard=MW1I24]Seeking Dispel[/mwcard] has been cast.

[mwcard=MW1E10]Decoy[/mwcard] clauses are:

When [mwcard=MW1E10]Decoy[/mwcard] is revealed, destroy it.

and

When this spell is destoyed it's controller gains 2 mana.

So, the relevant interaction are [mwcard=MW1I24]Seeking Dispel[/mwcard] 1st and [mwcard=MW1E10]Decoy[/mwcard] 2nd.

By reading them together we get:  Destroy target hidden enchantment.  When [mwcard=MW1E10]Decoy[/mwcard] is destroyed, it's controller gains 2 mana.

Neither the reveal portion of [mwcard=MW1E10]Decoy[/mwcard] or the you may not reveal clause from [mwcard=MW1I24]Seeking Dispel[/mwcard] are relevant here.  The original caster still controls the [mwcard=MW1E10]Decoy[/mwcard] when it is destroyed, and since the 2nd clause is independent from the 1st, the fact that it wasn't revealed doesn't matter and the controller gets the mana.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 01:45:59 PM by blackirishguilt »
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Shad0w

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Re: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2014, 01:47:45 PM »
I will give this a day or 2 and best answer gets the prize.  8)
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jacksmack

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Re: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2014, 01:57:33 PM »
The FAQ under 'Decoy' says:

'Because enchantments are always automatically revealed whenever they are destroyed'

I just went through rulebook v. 2.0 and I could not find anything to back this up.
So currently it appears to me that this 'because ....' was added to clarify the decoy vs seeking dispel context.



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Re: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2014, 03:09:20 PM »
The only way it works is via the FAQ entry that jacksmack mentioned. Does a creature that Bear Strength is attached to get the +2 Melee when the enchant is still face down?...No. Does a creature with Ghoul Rot attached to it take 2 damage every round while the Ghoul Rot is face down?...No. Then why does Decoy's text trigger while it is face down?

It doesn't, it shouldn't, but for that little sentence in the FAQ which, in my opinion, destroys the consistency of the enchantment rules.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 03:37:58 PM by lettucemode »

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Re: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2014, 03:47:14 PM »
It is puzzle time all.


Why does [mwcard=MW1E10] Decoy[/mwcard] give back the mana when it is destroyed by [mwcard=MW1I24] Seeking Dispel[/mwcard]?

Let see who can explain it best.
If you can explain this correctly in detail I will give you 2 stickers.  8)

Because "Destroyed" effects (effects that occur when the spell is destroyed) are treated differently than all other effects in the game in that they apply to their enchantments even when unrevealed. Since the effect does not require that Decoy be revealed, it doesn't matter that Seeking Dispel prevents it from being revealed.

An excellent example is the cantrip trait on Standard Bearer and Barkskin. Even if these enchantments are destroyed while unrevealed, they are still returned to the spellbook.

Of course, Cantrips came after Seeking Dispel, so a better answer is probably that the rules supplement says that it does. It would be a good idea to make explicit this generalization (that Destroyed effects apply to unrevealed enchantments) in the rules.

jacksmack

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Re: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2014, 04:14:33 PM »
Cantrip is different.

Its a trait that takes effect when a card is destroyed.

It does not matter HOW its destroyed. If I cast stand bearer on a target my opponent has a nullify on, then I still get this card returned to hand even though it was never resolved.

Decoy does not grant mana if it were never resolved (aka when it hits a nullify).


EDIT:
The information in this post is false according to the newest FAQ.

Both 'Destroyed' and 'Returning Spells to Your Spellbook' describes this.

EDIT 2:
And then 'Cantrip' comes and owns the first EDIT:

If a spell with the Cantrip trait would be discarded or destroyed for any reason (including being countered), it is instead returned to its owners spellbook. Exception: The Obliterate effect destroys an object and removes it from the game. Obliterate will remove a Cantrip spell from the game.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 05:17:46 PM by jacksmack »

Wildhorn

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Re: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2014, 04:33:29 PM »
Seeking Dispel prevent Decoy to be revealed once it is cast, but once Seeking Dispel is resolved, Decoy is destroyed, so it get revealed because Seeking Dispel existence is no more, so doesnt prevent the reveal caused by destruction of Decoy.

Sailor Vulcan

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Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2014, 06:13:29 PM »
I have a slightly different theory:


Seeking dispel says controller of TARGET hidden enchantment cannot reveal that enchantment once seeking dispel has been cast. But once the enchant is destroyed it's no longer in play to be targeted by seeking dispel. Since the destroyed enchantment is no longer a legal target for Seeking Dispel, the "target cannot be revealed" clause ends, and the destroyed enchantment can be revealed.

Although if this is the case, you might want to clarify the definitions of "Target" and "in play" in the codex. I'm assuming in play refers to being in the arena. I'm guessing that spells that target card(s) in a discard pile are exceptions to the "only in play cards can be targeted" rule.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 06:20:46 PM by Imaginator »
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sIKE

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Re: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2014, 06:18:57 PM »
My theory is that the rules were made by guys living in Colorado and Washington state.....  ???
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ringkichard

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Re: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2014, 10:23:32 PM »
tl;dr: If decoy were hidden when it would activate, it wouldn't trigger because hidden enchantments have no effect, and Decoy doesn't specify or require that it triggers while hidden. But instead of triggering when revealed, Decoy triggers when it's destroyed. A destroyed Decoy isn't hidden anymore because only in-play enchantments are hidden, and a destroyed Decoy isn't in play. And it's ok for Decoy to trigger and do stuff even after it's destroyed because Decoy clearly says it does, and if there is a conflict between a card and the rules, the card wins.


Ok, as always, we start by looking up all the easily relevant rules information for [mwcard=MW1E10]Decoy[/mwcard].

Quote from: FAQ
Decoy
  • If Decoy is destroyed while still unrevealed (e.g. by a Seeking Dispel), its controller still gains the 2 mana.
  • If Decoy is countered (e.g. by Nullify), its controller does not gain the 2 mana, because the enchantment never resolved to have its effect.
  • If Decoy is discarded from somewhere other than play, such as if it had been planned to be cast with a familiar which then is destroyed, it does not gain its owner 2 mana.

Well, ok. So we know what the interaction is, but why does it work?

Let's look at some of the enchantment rules:
Quote from: Rulebook
There is no limit to the number of different enchantments that can be attached to an object, but each object or zone cannot have more than one enchantment with the same name attached to it at one time. This includes both hidden and revealed enchantments. For example, you cannot attach two Bear Strength spells to the same creature.

This rules passage isn't directly relevant, but it does tell us something important about the general philosophy of enchantments. A hidden [mwcard=MW1E01]Bear Strength[/mwcard] is still a Bear Strength. You can't have two face down Bear Strengths on the same creature, because you can't have two enchantments with the same name attached to the same object, and even when it's hidden the name of a hidden Bear Strength is Bear Strength.

So why doesn't a hidden Bear Strength give a creature Melee +2? Because the rules say so.
Quote from: Revealing Enchantments
Important: Hidden Enchantments have no effect as long as they are hidden!

Ok! But what about [mwcard=MW1E29]Nullify[/mwcard]?
You'll notice that Nullify has rules text that operates while it is hidden. You must reveal Nullify when the creature it's attached to is targeted. That requirement functions even though Nullify is hidden. Being hidden doesn't stop Nullify's rules from working!

So why is Nullify an exception? Because the card says it is. Remember The Magic Rule on the first page of Chapter One of the rules?
Quote from: The Magic Rule
The Magic Rule
Mage Wars is a game of magic and magic spells. Often, these spells will violate the normal rules in some way. In all cases, if there is a conflict between the text on a spell card and these rules, the spell card always takes precedence.
Since Nullify only works if it can trigger while it's hidden, it can!

Ok, so what? Decoy doesn't explicitly require that it functions when it's seeking dispelled. It would still work legally (but be worse) if it only functioned when it's controller chose to reveal it. How does The Magic Rule apply to Decoy?

To answer that question, we need to talk about another card: [mwcard=FWC03]Goblin Bomber[/mwcard]. Goblin Bomber has a very peculiar sort of attack that it can sometimes make when it is destroyed. Normally, an object can't do anything when it's destroyed: a destroyed creature can't make a counterstrike against the attacker that destroyed it, or if a creature burns to death at the start of the upkeep none of its upkeep triggered abilities will later be used.

But Goblin Bomber is different. It can be destroyed and then make an attack. [mwcard=DNC09]Plague Zombie[/mwcard] and [mwcard=DNE02]Rise Again[/mwcard] also have similar rules. Because these cards must work after they're destroyed, the cards do actually work after they're destroyed. That's The Magic Rule in action.

Decoy is one such card. Decoy says, "When this Spell is Destroyed, its controller gains 2 mana." Decoy reaches into our world with glowing gifts on prehensile tendrils from beyond the grave! Spooky!

Er, yes, I was saying....

Let's put all this together then.
A hidden Decoy is still a Decoy, even though it's hidden. When Decoy is destroyed, it's not in play anymore, and we follow the rules for what to do when an enchantment is destroyed: we put it in it's owner's discard pile.
Quote from: Discarding Spells
Any spell or object that is destroyed is always placed in its owner’s discard pile

Now, normally we'd ignore a hidden Decoy's abilities because it's hidden, but (and this is the important part) in order for an enchantment to be hidden, it needs to be in play.

Quote from: Enchantments, p. 18
Enchantments are different from all other types of spells in Mage Wars because they are played face down. Your opponent does not know what your enchantment does until you reveal it! A face down enchantment is called a hidden enchantment. You may examine your own hidden enchantments at any time. Enchantments create an object in the arena that remains in play until destroyed.

Since only enchantments that are in play face down are hidden enchantments, once the enchantment is destroyed and leaves play it's not a hidden enchantment anymore. Remember the rule? "Hidden Enchantments have no effect as long as they are hidden!" Time's up!*

And since it was in play as a Decoy, and left play as a destroyed Decoy, its on-destruction ability triggers! The Decoy's controller gets 2 mana! Hurrah!

This, by the way, also explains why a Nullified Decoy or a discarded Decoy doesn't give any mana. If the Decoy never enters play, its rules never take effect at all, and its trigger condition is never met. And in the absence of specific instructions from the card, the normal game rules apply, and the discarded Decoy just sits like a lump.

Poor lumpy Decoy!



Any questions?


*Ollie Ollie Oxen Free! Last one to the discard pile is a rotten egg!
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 10:33:35 PM by ringkichard »
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jacksmack

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Re: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2014, 01:51:06 AM »
When Decoy is hit by seeking dispel you are not revealling it as such.

Revealling means pay reveal cost and flip card face up. This does not happen because of the restrictions from seeking dispel even though the reveal cost is 0.

Rather decoy is destroyed by seeking dispel and a destroyed effect takes place due to the text on decoy.



Lets pretend decoy costs 1 mana to reveal instead of 0.
Your mage has a Face down decoy on self, and 10 mana.

The mage can pay 1 mana to reveal decoy which destroys it, and gain 2 mana from its destroyed effect.
You end up with 11 mana.

If the opponenet decides to seekign dispel your face down decoy, then the card would be destroyed without revealling it. The destroyed effect from decoy grants 2 mana.
You end up with 12 mana.

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Re: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2014, 10:40:27 AM »
Im sure I am late to the party for the 2 banana sticker so I will give you my simplified look at the spells

Decoy states: "When Decoy is revealed, destroy it. When this spell is destroyed, its controller gains 2 mana"

Seeking Dispel States: "Destroy target hidden enchantment. Controller of target enchantment cannot reveal the target enchantment once Seeking Dispel has been cast"

What's bolded in Decoy is the key statement. When this spell is destroyed, its controller gains 2 mana. It doesn't specify that the destruction needs to come from the revelation of this spell. It just says "When this spell is destroyed, its controller gains 2 mana"

Seeking dispel destroys enchantments before they can be reveal. Decoy doesn't have to be reveal to yield the 2 mana to its controller. It just needs to be destroyed. All revealing does for Decoy is give it another avenue for destruction.

I hope thats right  ;D
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Shad0w

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Re: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2014, 01:26:43 PM »
What does it mean to be Destroyed:
When an object is destroyed, everything attached to it is destroyed and discarded. This includes damage, condition markers, tokens, enchantments, and conjurations. Ability markers are returned to the Mage. Then, the object is placed in its owner’s discard pile.
The object may then resolve a “destroyed” effect. For example, a Plague Zombie will explode. Some effects replace being discarded such as Cantrip or Obliterate

Discarding Spells
Each Mage has his own separate discard pile. Any spell or object that is destroyed is always placed in its owner’s discard pile (regardless of who “controls” it at the time). Many spells, such as incantations, are automatically discarded after they are resolved. Important: Any player may freely examine the contents of any discard pile at any time. Cards in your discard pile are “expended”. They are outside of your spellbook, and cannot be used again. Thus, each spell in your book can be cast only once during the game (unless a spell or
ability allows you to re-use it).

The reason I bring these 2 sections up is that when a hidden enchantment is destroyed it is turned face up by the rules of the game before entering the discard pile. We know this because all cards in the discard pile are public knowledge. "Any player may freely examine the contents of any discard pile at any time." Seeking Dispel prevents the controller of the target enchantment form revealing the enchantment but as part of the destroy effect it is then turned face up allowing the Decoy destruction trigger to happen.


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Re: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2014, 01:28:43 PM »
Me?