July 01, 2022, 03:30:51 AM

Author Topic: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction  (Read 21608 times)

ringkichard

  • Flightless Funpire
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2564
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Kich, if you prefer.
    • View Profile
Re: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2014, 06:31:05 PM »
I'm not sure why you struck any of ACG's explanation. None of what you struck is incorrect.
I can take the fun out of anything. It's true; here, look at this spreadsheet.

Shad0w

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2934
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2014, 09:33:18 PM »
I'm not sure why you struck any of ACG's explanation. None of what you struck is incorrect.

The quote below is from ACGs post. Both statements are indeed incorrect. The only enchantments that work while face done have a clause to allow them to work while face down.

Since the effect does not require that Decoy be revealed, it doesn't matter that Seeking Dispel prevents it from being revealed.

An excellent example is the cantrip trait on Standard Bearer and Barkskin. Even if these enchantments are destroyed while unrevealed, they are still returned to the spellbook.


When enchantments are destroyed they are turned face up before being place in the discard pile.  As Laddin stated without this cards like Decoy, Standard Bearer, and Barkskin would not function correctly. 

1: The only times an enchant can be face down is during casting, while in play or while spellbound.

If you wanted to show the other players your planned cards you could but the rules of the game allow planned cards to be hidden. The quantity  of cards planed is public knowledge.

In the rules enchantments are always cast face down and the while in play enchantments may turned face up later in the game

2: All card in the discard are public knowledge
« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 09:39:57 PM by Shad0w »
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


Quote: Shad0w the Arcmage

Laddinfance

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 4646
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
Re: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2014, 11:10:37 PM »
We are carefully looking at Decoy. It is a card that we are reviewing right now. We want it to work properly and without upsetting other cards. Right now, the end result is that the supplement clarifies how it does work. We're wanting to make that an easier conclusion to jump to without having to reference the entire supplement.

Death-from-above

  • Jr. Mage
  • **
  • Posts: 79
  • Banana Stickers 1
  • This is some really personal text
    • View Profile
Re: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2014, 06:17:37 AM »
It took me a while to wrap my head around this but I think it is starting to make sense. Before, I was simply following what the text ruling said; "When this spell is destroyed, its controller gains 2 mana", therefore once this spell was destroyed, regardless of how it was destroyed, the controller received 2 mana. All revealing does to decoy is destroys it. I think I was looking at the ruling wrong but inadvertently reached the correct conclusion.

Man, this is indeed a tricky ruling.
  • Favourite Mage: Wychwood Druid
"Why am I not a banana?"
"Because your genetic code dictates that you are human. However it should please you to know that you share 50-60% of your DNA with a banana."
"Thanks man"
"Are you telling me that some people are 10% more banana than other people?"

echephron

  • Player
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 693
  • Banana Stickers 0
  • The finest in mage wear...
    • View Profile
Re: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2014, 06:18:22 PM »
I was ruling this wrong too. Here is my take on it (though I'm too late for any stickers  :'( ):

Destruction: A spell is destroyed either by receiving damage equal or greater to its life points or by some effect which specifically destroys it. A destroyed spell is placed in its owners discard pile and then revealed, regardless of any effect stating otherwise (such as seeking dispel). A destroyed enchantment can activate its on-destruction effect if applicable.

"On-Destruction" effects: Upon destruction, a spell enters the discard pile then activates its on-destruction effect. Countered and obliterated spells cannot activate their on-destruction effects. These on-destruction effects act as if all spells and markers which were just destroyed or removed are still attached to their previous target(s) and are still in their previous zone(s).

Problems:
1) Why does [mwcard=DNE02] Rise Again's[/mwcard] on destruction effect only occur when revealed, but [mwcard=MW1E10] Decoy's[/mwcard] on destruction effect can happen when unrevealed?
Problem example: during the upkeep phase you don't pay upkeep on a creature and it is destroyed. Rise again's controller never gets a chance to reveal the enchantment, so no zombie is created.

2) Also, on-destruction effects occur from the discard pile, but spells and tokens are no longer attached in the discard pile, so how can rise again or eternal servant function?

3) Countered spells are listed as DESTROYED in the codex(but listed as discarded in the 3rd edition rulebook), but the rules supplement states "An object can only be destroyed from play." So a countered spell enters play but its on-destruction effect does not?

4) Revealing spells in the discard pile: [mwcard=MW1I24] Seeking Dispel[/mwcard] states specifically that the spell cannot be revealed, but once it enters the discard pile, it is revealed.
Example: when Decoy is [mwcard=MW1E29] Nullified[/mwcard] it is destroyed, but does not get its on-destruction effect.


What I would change(in order of helpfulness):
a) Countered spells are discarded rather than destroyed

b) "On-destruction" effects occur immediately before going to the discard pile so that all attached effects are still attached and so [mwcard=DNC09] Plague Zombie[/mwcard] clearly rots his zone and Rise Again makes a zombie of its attached creature.

c) The rules would be a lot simpler if Decoy just got an errata to say its effect worked even while hidden. Decoy is the only enchantment in the game which does something while remaining hidden. Rise again is not meant to work while hidden, but rule changes to allow for decoy might effect rise again.

d) A rule stating that the ondestruction effects of a hidden enchantment still occur(rise again and decoy). This is weird because until now, the specific text on hidden enchantments had no effect.

e) Different language for showing you the face of a card and Revealing an enchantment.  especially for the discard pile.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 06:29:52 PM by echephron »
  • Favourite Mage: Wychwood Druid

Shad0w

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2934
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2014, 07:04:01 PM »
This is going to be a long explination.
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


Quote: Shad0w the Arcmage

Wildhorn

  • Superior artificial brain, feel free to call me Blaine.
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1063
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
    • Mage Wars Quebec
Re: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2014, 07:06:25 PM »
@echepron: Rise Again destruction effect only trigger when revealed because it is not the destruction of Rise Again that trigger it. It is the destruction of the attached object.

Shad0w

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2934
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2014, 07:59:50 PM »
1) Why does [mwcard=DNE02] Rise Again's[/mwcard] on destruction effect only occur when revealed, but [mwcard=MW1E10] Decoy's[/mwcard] on destruction effect can happen when unrevealed?
Problem example: during the upkeep phase you don't pay upkeep on a creature and it is destroyed. Rise again's controller never gets a chance to reveal the enchantment, so no zombie is created.


For [mwcard=DNE02] Rise Again's[/mwcard] on destruction effect to occure it must be face up when the creature is destroyed. If it is turned face up after the creature was destroyed as part of the destruction the time has already passed.


2) Also, on-destruction effects occur from the discard pile, but spells and tokens are no longer attached in the discard pile, so how can rise again or eternal servant function?

Destroyed

When an object is destroyed, everything attached to it is destroyed and discarded. This includes damage, condition markers, tokens, enchantments, and conjurations. Ability markers are returned to the Mage. Then, the object is placed in its owner’s discard pile. The object may then resolve a “destroyed” effect. For example, a Plague Zombie will explode. Some effects replace being discarded such as Cantrip or Obliterate.

Reanimate (Effect)

This creature reanimates upon death. If this creature is destroyed, it is moved from the discard pile to the zone it was just destroyed in, and placed face down in that zone, with a face-down action marker on it. This creature is considered temporarily out of play. At the end of the round, the creature card is flipped face up and is Summoned into play. Reanimate does not occur if the creature is removed from the game when it is destroyed. See “Obliterate.”

So now we have 2 events occurring Reanimate (Effect) and the removal of attached objects and tokens. Reanimate creates a delayed trigger even if the attached object is removed by the creature being destroyed because it triggers on the destruction and the removal occurs after the destruction effect.

3) Countered spells are listed as DESTROYED in the codex(but listed as discarded in the 3rd edition rulebook), but the rules supplement states "An object can only be destroyed from play." So a countered spell enters play but its on-destruction effect does not?


This is an issue of using the same word for different effects.  That is why I asked for the change in the 3rd edition rulebook. A countered spell NEVER ENTERS PLAY and is placed in the discard.

4) Revealing spells in the discard pile:
[mwcard=MW1I24] Seeking Dispel[/mwcard] states specifically that the spell cannot be revealed, but once it enters the discard pile, it is revealed.
Example: when Decoy is
[mwcard=MW1E29] Nullified[/mwcard] it is destroyed, but does not get its on-destruction effect.

If you read [mwcard=MW1I24] Seeking Dispel[/mwcard] it states the controller of the targeted enchant may not reveal it. It will still be turn face up be game effects.

a) Countered spells are discarded rather than destroyed
This is true as of the v3 rulebook

b) "On-destruction" effects occur immediately before going to the discard pile so that all attached effects are still attached and so
[mwcard=DNC09] Plague Zombie[/mwcard] clearly rots his zone and Rise Again makes a zombie of its attached creature.

They are still attached before going to the discard then as part of going to the discard they are no longer attached.

c) The rules would be a lot simpler if Decoy just got an errata to say its effect worked even while hidden. Decoy is the only enchantment in the game which does something while remaining hidden. Rise again is not meant to work while hidden, but rule changes to allow for decoy might effect rise again.

Rise again does not work while hidden.


d) A rule stating that the ondestruction effects of a hidden enchantment still occur(rise again and decoy). This is weird because until now, the specific text on hidden enchantments had no effect.

[mwcard=FWE09] Standard Bearer[/mwcard], [mwcard=DNE01] Barkskin[/mwcard], [mwcard=MW1E10] Decoy[/mwcard] all have on destruction effects that work while hidden. Rise Again does not work while hidden.

e) Different language for showing you the face of a card and Revealing an enchantment.  especially for the discard pile.

This was recomended for the next rulebook when we do a revision.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 08:04:39 PM by Shad0w »
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


Quote: Shad0w the Arcmage

Rinc

  • New Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 27
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2014, 04:11:39 AM »
One question though. Is it actually stated anywhere that the cards in the discard pile are face-up? Or is it just assumed so since everyone is allowed to examine the contents of it? I mean, theoretically, the pile can be face-down and people can still examine the content in it, either by looking at the backs of the cards, or just lifting the pile above your head and examine in it.

The question is stupid, but I dont like rulings based on implied conclusions.

Wildhorn

  • Superior artificial brain, feel free to call me Blaine.
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1063
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
    • Mage Wars Quebec
Re: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2014, 08:26:05 AM »
One question though. Is it actually stated anywhere that the cards in the discard pile are face-up? Or is it just assumed so since everyone is allowed to examine the contents of it? I mean, theoretically, the pile can be face-down and people can still examine the content in it, either by looking at the backs of the cards, or just lifting the pile above your head and examine in it.

The question is stupid, but I dont like rulings based on implied conclusions.

Face up, face down, on table, under tabke, on your head... Doesnt matter. As soon as it is in the discard pile the information is avaible.

Shad0w

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2934
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2014, 04:38:14 PM »
One question though. Is it actually stated anywhere that the cards in the discard pile are face-up? Or is it just assumed so since everyone is allowed to examine the contents of it? I mean, theoretically, the pile can be face-down and people can still examine the content in it, either by looking at the backs of the cards, or just lifting the pile above your head and examine in it.

The question is stupid, but I dont like rulings based on implied conclusions.


My team helped with making the rulebook ready for release. We joined the MW play test team almost a year before release.

Important:
Any player may freely examine the contents of any discard pile at any time.

This gets into what is and is not public information during a game.


Hidden Information:
Hidden information refers to the information which the rules of the game do not allow a player and/or a spectator to view.
Some Examples are Cards in an opponent's spellbook, hidden enchantments controlled by opponent, cards your opponent planned, face down Spellbound cards controlled by opponent


Players may choose to reveal their hands or any other hidden information available only to them


Public Information:
Public Informationrefers to the information which the rules of the game do allow a player and/or a spectators to view


Some examples would be

Number for cards planned
Casting cost and level of face up object in play
Total Channeling value of an object
Damage on an object
Mana in a players pool
Location of an object in the Arena
Cards in players discard pile

With all Enchantments, Spellbound cards, and cards planned on Spawnpoints when the object they are attached to is destroyed those cards are placed face up in the discard.

We felt it should not have to be explicitly written in the core rule book.  This gets into the finite tournament rules that over 70% will never use  8)
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 02:02:59 AM by Shad0w »
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


Quote: Shad0w the Arcmage

netzhuffle

  • Playtester
  • Jr. Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 58
  • Banana Stickers 0
  • Swiss Mage Wars Ambassador
    • View Profile
Re: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2014, 10:26:39 AM »
So if Decoy triggers after Seeking Dispel because it is turned up before it’s destroyed, does Divine Intervention trigger too?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 01:08:47 PM by netzhuffle »
netzhuffle – Jannis Grimm, German Mage Wars Head Judge. headjudge@magewars.de

Sailor Vulcan

  • Secret Identity: Imaginator
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3130
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2014, 01:07:05 PM »
One question though. Is it actually stated anywhere that the cards in the discard pile are face-up? Or is it just assumed so since everyone is allowed to examine the contents of it? I mean, theoretically, the pile can be face-down and people can still examine the content in it, either by looking at the backs of the cards, or just lifting the pile above your head and examine in it.

The question is stupid, but I dont like rulings based on implied conclusions.


My team helped with making the rulebook ready for release. We joined the MW play test team almost a year before release.

Important:
Any player may freely examine the contents of any discard pile at any time.

This gets into what is and is not public information during a game.


Hidden Information:
Hidden information refers to the information which the rules of the game do not allow a player and/or a spectator to view.
Some Examples are Cards in an opponent's spellbook, hidden enchantments controlled by opponent, cards your opponent planned, face down Spellbound cards controlled by opponent


Players may choose to reveal their hands or any other hidden information available only to them


Public Information:
Public Informationrefers to the information which the rules of the game do allow a player and/or a spectators to view


Some examples would be

Number for cards planned
Casting cost and level of face up object in play
Total Channeling value of an object
Damage on an object
Mana in a players pool
Location of an object in the Arena
Cards in players discard pile

With all Enchantments, Spellbound cards, and cards planned on Spawnpoints when the object they are attached to is destroyed those cards are placed face up in the discard.

We felt it should not have to be explicitly written in the core rule book.  This gets into the finite tournament rules that over 70% will never use  8)

I still think things like this should be written down explicitly in official rules documents of some kind. There are already plenty of things to keep track of in this game, and if all the rules are written down explicitly then it will be easier for more players to begin playing in tournaments. While I don't like using it as an example, Magic the gathering has two core rulebooks: a basic core rulebook and a comprehensive core rulebook. I think mage wars should do the same.
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster
I am Sailor Vulcan! Champion of justice and reason! And yes, I am already aware my uniform is considered flashy, unprofessional, and borderline sexually provocative for my species by most intelligent lifeforms. I did not choose this outfit. Shut up.

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2504
  • Banana Stickers 57
    • View Profile
Re: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2014, 02:17:36 PM »
So if Decoy triggers after Seeking Dispel because it is turned up before it’s destroyed, does Divine Intervention trigger too?

You are slightly mistaken. The only reveal effect that Decoy has is to destroy it, and it does not get to use this effect when destroyed by a Seeking Dispel. It then also has an on destruction effect in addition to that which triggers regardless of how it is destroyed. It is this on destruction effect that grants you 2 mana and that triggers when it is hit by a Seeking Dispel, or destroyed by any other means.

Divine Intervention does not have any on destruction effects. If it did, then it would work the same way. However, Divine Intervention only has a reveal effect and thus does nothing when destroyed, be it by Seeking Dispel or another means.

netzhuffle

  • Playtester
  • Jr. Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 58
  • Banana Stickers 0
  • Swiss Mage Wars Ambassador
    • View Profile
Re: Decoy and Seeking Dispel interaction
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2014, 05:32:34 PM »
Thanks!
netzhuffle – Jannis Grimm, German Mage Wars Head Judge. headjudge@magewars.de