September 18, 2020, 09:58:14 AM

Author Topic: The Promo Debate  (Read 12542 times)

Arlemus

  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 193
  • Banana Stickers 1
    • View Profile
Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2014, 01:49:59 PM »

At the end, it's a matter of the purpose of the event. Is it meant to just be casual fun? then allow them. Is this meant to be serious competition? then don't.

In my opinion, they shouldn't be allowed in any type of event, tournament or casual. 

There is nothing stopping someone from going to a casual event with an entire strategy based around an overpowered promo card, AND THEY EXIST (i.e. ballista), and completely ruining the play experience of all his/her opponents.  When a card isn't part of legal play it extends the card pool to a place where most players, and definitely not casual players, can't respond to it properly and will undoubtedly be frustrated losing to it in the end.

That said, if both players in a casual match agree to use promos I think they're fair game. 

In the future I would very much like to see not only "promo packs" but some other kind of "booster" type pack that is balanced to fit into the current card pool.  I'm sure this would take some work, but it could almost be like what Fantasy Flight does with Netrunner or CoC, etc.  They could fill the gaps between expansions, keep interest high, and I would pay high margins on them.  Just an idea; I'm sure you guys have already thought of it.
  • Favourite Mage: Darkfenne Necromancer

silverclawgrizzly

  • Charlotte Mage Warrior
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2480
  • Banana Stickers 4
    • View Profile
Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2014, 03:42:32 PM »

At the end, it's a matter of the purpose of the event. Is it meant to just be casual fun? then allow them. Is this meant to be serious competition? then don't.

This is pretty much the crux of it here. I'm allowing promos for an extra charge at my charity event but then I'm also going to personally make sure everyone who attends walks out with prizes. Were I hosting Gen Con I admit I probably wouldn't allow promos cause well...it's Gen Con it's about the one non-casual tournament I see with Mage Wars. Winner at Gen Con walks out THE Champ and as far as I'm concerned the best there is for a year so yeah stakes are kinda high.

As an aside on the Staff of Storms: Beatable. Very beatable. It won't break a block except with Arc Lightning and that means you're in Dissolve range and I don't care if you got a Nullify, if I want your jank destroyed I'm getting through the Nullify. That's what Seeking Dispel and Decoy are for.
  • Favourite Mage: Straywood Beastmaster
What we must all remember is no matter the game we were all newbies at one point.

Sailor Vulcan

  • Secret Identity: Imaginator
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3130
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2014, 04:00:54 PM »
I'm not entirely sure, but I suspect that some people might be overestimating the impact of card access on winning in tournaments as opposed to skill. Certainly having access to cards no one else does gives a player an extra advantage. Owning more expansions than your opponents also gives you an extra advantage over them. The question is, is the advantage of having access to promo cards big enough to make any significant difference to who wins and who loses?

I think that if you are playing against cards you're unfamiliar with because you've never used them or played against someone who was using them before, then you'll be at a disadvantage. If you've played against them on OCTGN then you have a better grasp of how they interact with the metagame and are more able to respond to those cards with non-promo cards.

The likely problem with promo cards I think is that people don't have equal access to knowledge about how those cards interact with the metagame. If you don't play on octgn and you don't own promo cards and neither do any of your opponents, you will not know or be able to know how to deal with promo cards ahead of time, and no amount of practice before the tournament will help you against them; you simply would have to think on the fly when it came time to play against them. Your opponent, who does have access to promo cards, does not necessarily need to think on the fly so much during the game, since they already are able to be familiar with all of the cards in the already released sets, including the cards in your spellbook.

Although I don't know for sure, it's just speculation. Someone would have to test it, like thus:




1. Conduct at least 4 same or similarly-sized tournaments in the same location (preferably a larger number of players) with promos prohibited.

a. Keep track of who wins, who makes it to the top 4 and finals, and what spellbooks they were using.

2. Conduct at least 4 more same or similarly sized tournaments in the same location as the first 4 and about the same size turnout as well, with promos allowed.

a. Keep track of who wins, who makes it to the top 4 and finals, what spellbooks they were using, and whether they used promos or not. If you want to do even better, be sure to write down which promos they used and the quantity of each.

All tournaments in the test must be conducted within the same "block" there should be no sets released from the beginning to the end of the test. If a set is released in the middle of the test, stop the test. There must be a 1:1 ratio between tournaments in step 1 and tournaments in step 2. Drop data from any tournaments that don't have a counterpart in the other step.

It would be nice to get to the bottom of this. I think we'd all like to know how much of a difference promo cards actually make, and this is the only way to tell for sure that I know of.

What do you think?
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster
I am Sailor Vulcan! Champion of justice and reason! And yes, I am already aware my uniform is considered flashy, unprofessional, and borderline sexually provocative for my species by most intelligent lifeforms. I did not choose this outfit. Shut up.

Maverick

  • Ambassador - Twin Cities MN
  • Playtester
  • Full Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 203
  • Banana Stickers 0
  • I got a fever, and the only cure is Mage Wars!
    • View Profile
Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2014, 06:49:58 PM »
Wow, so I definitely called it by saying this was a taboo subject. To me I think it is unfair to people who acquire promo's by participating in organized play to be denied the right to use them. I also think it should be perfectly fine to proxy them for other players who have a more limited selection. The goal of organized play is to encourage people to seek these promo's out as an incentive to actually show up and play. Denying their use directly conflicts with the whole purpose of the promo's existence and the incentive they provide.

I am hesitant to disagree with the marketing and design process of a company whose products I so very much enjoy but this is a very real problem. The incentive to play (ie. prize support) for the game is a taboo subject within the community for that game. As opposed to negative feedback I will attempt to offer solutions.

1. Release every promo currently out in a near future expansion. The theme of the expansion should just be "Promo Cards". Get them out there and make them available to everyone. Officially legalize them for organized play. As the cards are already designed with art and everything this should be inexpensive and very profitable compared to other released sets.

2. In addition to the above make all future promo cards alternate art versions of currently released cards instead of new card releases. It will still be cool enough to be sought after but will not remove the incentive of people to go to live organized events. More people at organized events = bigger community =  more sales for company. Help your Ambassador's help you.
  • Favourite Mage: Bloodwave Warlord
Easy, guys.. I put my pants on just like the rest of you -- one leg at a time. Except, once my pants are on, I win Mage Wars!

Ganpot

  • Jr. Mage
  • **
  • Posts: 99
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2014, 07:34:19 PM »
I do not see overpowered cards here.
I never said they were overpowered.  I said the Ballista is probably broken (aka overpowered), but the other cards were still powerful.  There's a difference. 

Even without being overpowered, these cards could have a drastic impact on the meta.  Gravikor could potentially have wrecked the Straywood Aviary build that won GenCon this year.  Plagued can potentially ruin swarm builds (especially wolf packs led by Redclaw).  Altar of the Iron Guard combined with Temple High Guards and Defends could theoretically create a fortress of death. 

None of that is necessarily bad or broken, as long as everyone is given the same tools. 

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2014, 08:26:57 PM »
Set a straw man up and knock it down. This has never been controversial. In sanctioned tournaments, only officially released cards are allowed. Has been like this since 2012 and not one post here to ever complain about this being the rule. i.e. no debate.

Now casual or non-official tournament play its your world and you get to make/break/bend the rules as you see fit. I greatly admire what and how Silverclaw has done in his neck of the woods, his tournaments allow them and I think he does it in a manner that does very well to support the tournaments and the promos that are allowed (if you look at his announcement, you will see there are promo's allowed (has access too) vs.  which ones are not (the ones he doesn't)). We don't see eye to eye on all things but he has done this very well.

If this is about access to promo's then that is a different topic that can be discussed in a new thread.
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

silverclawgrizzly

  • Charlotte Mage Warrior
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2480
  • Banana Stickers 4
    • View Profile
Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2014, 09:39:34 PM »
The main thing to do with promos is to learn how they play as was mentioned earlier. Use proxies or read about them. I've seen the following and can explain:

-Plagued. This card IS nice but I normally don't play it as much as you'd think. I like to use it on holy turtle builds. It gets Dispelled pretty quickly like any other annoying Enchantment. Against a Necromancer obviously it's worthless against almost any other mage you could be casting Ghoul Rot to kill the mage. It's really only useful against swarms and that's assuming they're thick enough to not break up the swarm.

-Temple High Guard. We he(is it a He? It's an elf I can't tell) doesn't have Intercept so you still get to play Whack-A-Angel cause they're not taking out Guardian Angels for them. You can get around a Guard though honestly. There's about half a dozen ways to do it.

-Alter of the Iron Guard. Honestly if anything is going to be called "broken" this would be it lol. It's really nice knowing that if you're going to be summoning into your zone this turn to know they got your back. However it's a pretty breakable Conjuration and it's normally cooler early on obviously than later.

-Staff of Storms. You're likely to get ONE count them ONE nasty shot off with it. That shot could be devastating granted but it takes a lot of set up and your opponent probably sees it coming a mile away. You get better results nickel and dime your attacks with it. In Mage Wars if I want to destroy your equipment then I'm going to.

-Fire Elemental. Honestly underrated because people see "Oh Lightning and Water will destroy it" yeah....but if you don't have any or they're all cast life bites fighting this guy. He's awesome as a Guard actually. Still it's beatable with a Cloak of Elements and some armor.

-Bloodwave Greatbowman. My favorite promo card to be sure. It is ridiculously easy to give them that +2 Piercing and it can go so far to helping you take out the big guns. Why Dissolve their chest piece when your range attackers can ignore it? However without support in the form of a Guard or Fortified Position they die fast.

-Hurl Meteor. Cool card no doubt. Rolling that many dice just makes you feel powerful and all crushing! Used with Akiros Favor and you have something just as devastating as a Staff of Storms/Lightning Bolt almost. Still it's a Full Cast so it's not going on a Wizards Tower so that helps. Probably won't see more than one of these in a match so if you're armored or otherwise protected you can take the hit and keep going.

-Rain Cloud. People cast this in response to one mage: The Adramelech Warlock. Yeah -2 Acid is cool but come on Acid Ball Corrodes on a 1 so is it really that helpful? It's a pain to destroy cause it flies and it's Incorporeal. That also means however it can't be Guarded so just shoot it with lightning.

-Joseph Trueblood. I've fought him. Wasn't impressed. I guess he could be awesome with the right build but nobody I know has kept him in their book past one game of actually using him.

-Mana Vampirism. If you're a Wizard then you already have enough ways to mana screw people. If you're a Wizard it's just one more way to annoy people and not even your best. If you're not a Wizard then stop trying to act like a Wizard.

-Wall of Force. Yeah normally Force Masters hate walls cause they get between them and smacking people. Actually casting a wall is unusual for them. What do they have they'd like to protect? If they cast it so they can bash people into it then they might as well pay for a deadlier wall.

I've used the Critical Strike/Vorpal Blade combo and it was cool. I never had to look for a can opener at least.
  • Favourite Mage: Straywood Beastmaster
What we must all remember is no matter the game we were all newbies at one point.

Shad0w

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2934
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2014, 10:48:50 PM »
Most people forget the Alter of Peace affects attack spells.

For those that want to see a bunch of the promos BGG has a much of images

« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 10:52:59 PM by Shad0w »
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


Quote: Shad0w the Arcmage

silverclawgrizzly

  • Charlotte Mage Warrior
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2480
  • Banana Stickers 4
    • View Profile
Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2014, 11:30:36 PM »
I hadn't seen Sandstorm or Spiked Buckler before. Those are nice cards thanks for sharing Shadow.
  • Favourite Mage: Straywood Beastmaster
What we must all remember is no matter the game we were all newbies at one point.

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2014, 12:12:46 AM »
Even if you don't want to play online, the spellbook builder used in OCTGN has all of the currently released promos available for your viewing pleasure and spellbook building pleasure. You can even sort on multiple different card categories....
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

Schwenkgott

  • Thunderdome
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1430
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2014, 01:05:44 AM »
Even without being overpowered, these cards could have a drastic impact on the meta.  Gravikor could potentially have wrecked the Straywood Aviary build that won GenCon this year. 

Exactly! And that's why we need them. So a simple build with so many flying units cannot dominate anymore ... and there are other builds like this (Priestress with some Guardian Angels f.e.).
But of course most of the mages need 4 Spellpoints to include this card in their books. They need 8 Mana to play it. And it can be destroyed. I do not see a huge impact on the meta game. Just more options to play with.

Plagued can potentially ruin swarm builds (especially wolf packs led by Redclaw). 

1 Dispel or 1 Push in the final qc phase will end your spread of plague very quickly.

Altar of the Iron Guard combined with Temple High Guards and Defends could theoretically create a fortress of death. 

What's a Fortress of Death? High Guards are only effective, when they use their special ability ... they have to be on guard for this and you need to attack them. So don't. Their normal attack roll with 4 dice is not so scary without their special ability, right?

I think that if you are playing against cards you're unfamiliar with because you've never used them or played against someone who was using them before, then you'll be at a disadvantage. If you've played against them on OCTGN then you have a better grasp of how they interact with the metagame and are more able to respond to those cards with non-promo cards.

The likely problem with promo cards I think is that people don't have equal access to knowledge about how those cards interact with the metagame. If you don't play on octgn and you don't own promo cards and neither do any of your opponents, you will not know or be able to know how to deal with promo cards ahead of time, and no amount of practice before the tournament will help you against them; you simply would have to think on the fly when it came time to play against them. Your opponent, who does have access to promo cards, does not necessarily need to think on the fly so much during the game, since they already are able to be familiar with all of the cards in the already released sets, including the cards in your spellbook.

This! If people would know all the promo cards and think about how these promo cards can be used against their own builds, maybe see it in action (on OCTGN they are all available), they would not be against them, because they garantee more variety in gameplay.
I still miss any good argument against any Promo card apart from the Ballista.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 04:11:47 AM by Schwenkgott »
Akiro, I have never prayed to you before. No one will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, or why we died. All that matters is that one stood against many. That's what's important! Valor pleases you, Akiro... so grant me strength! And if you do not listen, then to HELL with you!

Ganpot

  • Jr. Mage
  • **
  • Posts: 99
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2014, 06:31:57 AM »
1 Dispel or 1 Push in the final qc phase will end your spread of plague very quickly.
True, but I think Plagued will best be used liberally.  One of them isn't that threatening, but 3(or even 4) of them together are (granted, you are tempting a Destroy Magic at that point).  Even if only 2 creatures are getting hurt per turn, it still has the same efficiency as Ghoul Rot (2 damage per turn for 6 total mana).  And if the enemy mage responds by breaking up their swarm, that's still a success (since it will hopefully cause them to lose momentum, as well as making it easier to pick off individual creatures). 

What's more, it should cost you significantly less mana to kill creatures than it costs to summon them.  For example, a timber wolf costs 9 mana to summon, and possesses 10 health.  Assuming 4 of them are sharing a space, that's 36 total mana investment.  Casting (and activating) 4 Plagued uses 24 mana.  Assuming the wolves don't scatter, the curses aren't dispelled, (etc.), all of the wolves will be dead in 3 turns (for all intents and purposes, 2 turns if you reveal all of the curses at the very end of a round).  That's obviously not a full-proof strategy (nothing should be), but it can be pretty effective. 

The real downside of Plagued is that it effects all creatures in the zone, including your own.  That is interesting, since it means that it is a curse meant for the Necromancer, not the Warlock.  Plop down some zombies, throw out some Plagues, and sit back as your zombie horde chases down the scattered enemy forces. 

What's a Fortress of Death? High Guards are only effective, when they use their special ability ... they have to be on guard for this and you need to attack them. So don't. Their normal attack roll with 4 dice is not so scary without their special ability, right?

I see it like this: Guardian Angels (as well as Panzerguards) are great at wasting time.  They are hard to kill, and generally force you to commit 2 creatures to an attack instead of 1 (of use some method to temporarily get rid of them, like Force Push).  But they aren't really threatening.  A counter-attack of 3 dice is only meaningful against something with low health and no armor.  If you have to attack them, it's annoying but not usually life-threatening. 

Temple High Guards, on the other hand, are guards which can actually murder stuff.  If you attack one with a small or medium creature, it is going to suffer heavily (and if it dies, it doesn't even deal any damage).  The Temple High Guards do suffer a bit from their lack of Intercept (and I'm not sure why they don't have Reach, considering they are using halberds...), but they are still useful for defending stuff against melee creatures (even if they can't go toe to toe against the really hard-hitting stuff). 

Schwenkgott

  • Thunderdome
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 1430
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2014, 06:39:37 AM »
Ok, but in the end, you're saying (and i agree with it): Every card can be good in certain situations and bad in others. It's the same with promo cards.
Why i personally like promo cards? It makes my opponents less predictable and is more challenging to me. That's why i'm looking forward to any new expansion and hope promo cards will be released soon as normal cards, when ever they fit in the theme of the expansion.
Akiro, I have never prayed to you before. No one will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, or why we died. All that matters is that one stood against many. That's what's important! Valor pleases you, Akiro... so grant me strength! And if you do not listen, then to HELL with you!

Wildhorn

  • Superior artificial brain, feel free to call me Blaine.
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1063
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
    • Mage Wars Quebec
Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2014, 06:40:08 AM »
An Halberd doesnt allow you to Reach the sky ;)

jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1073
  • Banana Stickers 19
    • View Profile
Re: The Promo Debate
« Reply #44 on: September 26, 2014, 06:54:33 AM »
Ok, but in the end, you're saying (and i agree with it): Every card can be good in certain situations and bad in others. It's the same with promo cards.
Why i personally like promo cards? It makes my opponents less predictable and is more challenging to me. That's why i'm looking forward to any new expansion and hope promo cards will be released soon as normal cards, when ever they fit in the theme of the expansion.

If thats the case, then you should just make up your own cards and ask your opponenet to do the same.

Then you will be in for a real surprise.