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Author Topic: Using multiple spells vs one of several different spells  (Read 9590 times)

Wildhorn

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Re: Using multiple spells vs one of several different spells
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2014, 02:33:26 PM »
How come it makes its value expodentialy increased?

3 turns after you casted it I will have 1 action and 2 mana over you.

DaFurryFury

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Re: Using multiple spells vs one of several different spells
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2014, 05:14:37 PM »
To break the values down further I'll explain it like this.

Mana Crystal gives the controller increased channeling, not mana. Channeling by extension gives you mana. So the (time of game-5) does give you it's effectiveness on a simple terms level. However, don't confuse channeling with just getting mana because Channeling has another benefit. That is, it increases the amount of mana you may cast on any given turn. In the long run my opponent may have gained much more mana than I but I was still able to cast larger spells earlier because I'm gaining mana faster, as opposed to slower but consistent.

Here's a turn by turn count.
Lets say 2 mages have 10 channeling.

Turn 0 = 10 mana <------ for the sake of removing values we don't need because the starting value is the same for everyone and it doesn't change the math at all.

Turn 1 = Channels 10 mana.(10) Plays mana crystal (-5). End Turn = 5 mana left. [For the sake of simplicity each turn both mages will spend 5 mana so that I can illustrate the concept of acceleration and not simple mana totals]
Turn 2 = Channels 11 mana.(16) Plays card (-5) End turn = 11 mana left
Turn 3 = Channels 11 mana.(22) Plays card (-5) End Turn = 17 mana left
Turn 4 = Channels 11 mana.(28) Plays card (-5) End turn = 23 mana left

Player 2
Turn 1 = Channels 10 mana.(10) Plays card (-5) End turn = 5 mana left
Turn 2 = Channels 10 mana.(15) Plays card (-5) End turn = 10 mana left
Turn 3 = Channels 10 mana.(20) Plays card (-5) End Turn = 15 mana left
Turn 4 = Channels 10 mana.(25) Plays card (-5) End turn = 20 mana left

Hopefully you see the pattern by now as the ever increasing ratio starts to benefit the owner of mana crystal. This ratio is described by the clause in my equation being (X*1) where x = the amount of rounds that the mana crystal is in play. "1" is a placeholder because these equation could describe the same relationship if multiple were in play.

So in conclusion, not only does the card grant you mana after turn six (which really is just a bonus for the main benefit), you gain a rate of gain bonus over your opponent which allows you to play larger more quickly. Even though you "wasted" 5 mana. Though by my calculations the "value" of mana crystal is zero after 2 and a half turns so each turn after turn 3 is when you start to reap benefits.

Now let me jump the gun here and ask myself, "why is the ratio bonus as equal to the flat mana gain bonus that takes place after 6 turns?" Well, the fact that the ratio bonus is equal is only relative to how much of an advantage it gives me over the other player. So in my opinion the values are equal, but maybe you aren't like me and think the ratio increase is worth only half that of the bonus mana crystal gives you after 6 turns. So plug in ".5" where the "1" is on the equation. The result is that it still only takes 3.33 turns to "pay itself off." Even if you put in ".25" its still a better outcome than the typical 6 turns that people think.



I hope that long winded explanation helps you to understand my point of view a bit. The old simple model isn't really wrong it's just not completely right and downplays the effects of mana crystal and the benefits.
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Wildhorn

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Re: Using multiple spells vs one of several different spells
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2014, 05:36:35 PM »
Duh man, you maths are wrong again.

You make both mage cast 5 mana spells, but the thing is that 1 of these spell for first mage is the mana crystal. You need to compare with someone not casting a mana crystal.

So it is:

Turn 0 = 10 mana <------ for the sake of removing values we don't need because the starting value is the same for everyone and it doesn't change the math at all.

Turn 1 = Channels 10 mana.(10) Plays mana crystal (-5). End Turn = 5 mana left.
Turn 2 = Channels 11 mana.(16) Plays card (-5) End turn = 11 mana left
Turn 3 = Channels 11 mana.(22) Plays card (-5) End Turn = 17 mana left
Turn 4 = Channels 11 mana.(28) Plays card (-5) End turn = 23 mana left

Player 2
Turn 1 = Channels 10 mana.(10) (not casting mana crystal) End turn = 10 mana left
Turn 2 = Channels 10 mana.(20) Plays card (-5) End turn = 15 mana left
Turn 3 = Channels 10 mana.(25) Plays card (-5) End Turn = 20 mana left
Turn 4 = Channels 10 mana.(30) Plays card (-5) End turn = 25 mana left


You see, player 2 has 2 more mana.

DaFurryFury

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Re: Using multiple spells vs one of several different spells
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2014, 09:08:01 PM »
I do minus 5 for all turns because this model assumes that the player plays something. Of course he will have more mana if he doesn't cast anything and I do. That's just how the game works. If he says he's not casting and waiting for a bigger turn that's fine, that is one of the strategies, but it's not pertinent to the acceleration model because in this case, as you suggest, I have gained my action back and potentially have more cards in play than he does. I just use 5 as a place holder. In a real game the turn values would be 5,2,7,13,etc.... but the model still holds as it refers to the ratio of mana gained in total over the opponent without other influences.

Does that make sense?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2014, 09:09:37 PM by DaFurryFury »
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zorro

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Re: Using multiple spells vs one of several different spells
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2014, 03:06:37 AM »
Hi! I wanted to give a quite long reply to the crystal question... but it seemed me quite off topic, and apponent a different post, bringing there your previous post about the issue, i expect this way disccusion is more clear and usefull.

Here you got the link:    
On mana crystal effects and efficiency
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sIKE

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Re: Using multiple spells vs one of several different spells
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2014, 10:15:13 AM »
The formula is wrong because you add twice X, which gives 2 mana per turn while crystal only gives one.

The right formula is ((X*1)-5)


If you want an example:

Give 5$ to a djinn and 1$ will appear every day in your pocket. That's how mana crystal work.

But your formula is: Give 5$ to a djinn, 1$ appear in your pocket every day... But the djinn also give you 1$ per day.
But since I now have 6$ in my pocket everyday I can buy the supersized big gulp(64oz) instead of buying the regular i.e. puny  (32oz) Big Gulp, so it is not just the fact that I get $1 more each day but the fact that it increases my buying power each day. This is the is an additional value above the linear increase in Channeling.
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Wildhorn

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Re: Using multiple spells vs one of several different spells
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2014, 10:29:57 AM »
I do minus 5 for all turns because this model assumes that the player plays something. Of course he will have more mana if he doesn't cast anything and I do. That's just how the game works. If he says he's not casting and waiting for a bigger turn that's fine, that is one of the strategies, but it's not pertinent to the acceleration model because in this case, as you suggest, I have gained my action back and potentially have more cards in play than he does. I just use 5 as a place holder. In a real game the turn values would be 5,2,7,13,etc.... but the model still holds as it refers to the ratio of mana gained in total over the opponent without other influences.

Does that make sense?


No. Because in your example:

Player 1: Cast 1 mana crystal and 3 Acid Ball
Player 2: Cast 4 Acid Ball

Then you tell me player 1 has more mana than player 2. Of course, you casted 1 less Acid Ball than player 2.

Player 2 has done more than Player 1.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 10:35:51 AM by Wildhorn »

Gregstrom

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Re: Using multiple spells vs one of several different spells
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2014, 11:18:32 AM »
...player 2 has done no more or less than player 1.  Player 1 spent one action creating an asset that provides +1 channeling instead of casting an acid ball.

Wildhorn

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Re: Using multiple spells vs one of several different spells
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2014, 11:26:47 AM »
I continued to reply in the thread started about mana crystal