May 16, 2022, 10:22:51 AM

Author Topic: Staff of Stoms. What does "you" mean  (Read 7994 times)

DaveW

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Re: Staff of Stoms. What does "you" mean
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2014, 06:27:23 PM »
back to [mwcard=MW1A02]Chain Lightning[/mwcard], it says after the first attack, each rolls one fewer dice. So if you use all 4 on the first rolling 9 dice, wouldn't the second roll 8, then 7, ...etc?

So theoretically, trying to add an additional dice to each roll removing one counter at a time, would have the same effect as removing all 4 at once. but instead of rolling 6, 5, 4, you would roll 9,8,7 - so why would it be better to remove one at a time versus all 4 at once?

Since the Mage is not making the attacks after the first one, the bonuses from any storm tokens may not be applied to subsequent targets.

Do we add one to all attacks when the Mage is wearing a Lightning Ring? I presume that the same should apply to that. The Codex says about Chain Lightning:

"Any modifiers that apply to one attack do not affect the number of dice rolled during subsequent attacks."
« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 06:36:03 PM by DaveW »
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V10lentray

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Re: Staff of Stoms. What does "you" mean
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2014, 06:50:55 PM »
So based on that logic, you can not add additional counters after the first attack with Chain lightning. The best you can do is attempt to really kill the first target with 9 attack dice.
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Zuberi

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Re: Staff of Stoms. What does "you" mean
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2014, 07:38:37 PM »
@V10lentray
As DaveW stated, any bonuses added to one attack do not affect subsequent attacks. You can think of them as individual attacks always of 5 + 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 + 1 + ... dice which could be independently improved by bonuses but any bonuses would only affect the one attack being improved and not subsequent ones.

@DaveW
You make an interesting analogy, except that Burst of Thorns explicitly states that the Vines are also the ones making the attack, in addition to being the source of the attack. I shall grant you that the wording in the FAQ does make it sound like it is because the Vine Marker is the source of the attack that the attack doesn't benefit from the Traits of your Mage, and that is a very compelling argument. However, I still think it is because the Vine Marker is the attacker that prevents it from benefiting from the Traits.

With Chain Lightning it is very clear that the Mage is the attacker and the source for the first attack. The source then changes for each subsequent attack, but not necessarily the attacker, and the source is NEVER the spell itself like it is with Damage Barriers. Thus, either the spell benefits from the Traits of the Mage for each attack, or it benefits from the Traits of each individual source as it makes new attacks. I opt for the first interpretation as the second interpretation has weird consequences, but I can not say the second is completely invalid and you do present some compelling evidence for it. However, it most definitely does not work like a Damage Barrier and you can not say the attack is originating from the spell itself as the rules clearly say otherwise.

Gregstrom

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Re: Staff of Stoms. What does "you" mean
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2014, 11:00:11 PM »
So if I read this right...

1.  An attack has a 'source' (point of origin) and an 'attacker' (entity responsible for the attack).
2.  The source of the attack is where an attack is reflected towards (and possibly where things like damage barriers apply damage if       triggered?)
3.  An attacker may be an enchantment, (autonomous) item, creature, conjuration or other thing that exists on the gameboard.  An attack cannot be its own attacker.
4.  Bonuses (pluses to dice, piercing, etc) derive from the attacker and not the source when the two are separate.
4a.  Occasions where the attacker is not also the source of the attack are extremely rare.

Two things strike me about Burst of Thorns.
Firstly, the spell is an incantation and not an attack.
Secondly, it states explicitly that it is not the caster of the spell that is making the attack.

This gives me the impression that if an attack card is used, the attacker is always the entity that casts the attack (otherwise Burst of Thorns would not need to be an incantation).  Also, for the caster of a spell not to be also the attacker in any attacks then generated, it must be explicitly stated that this is the case.

Zuberi

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Re: Staff of Stoms. What does "you" mean
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2014, 11:50:57 PM »
That pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter, but again "source" and "attacker" are not well defined terms. The FAQ for Chain Lightning makes it clear that they can be separate and aren't simply synonymous for one another, but we aren't sure if Traits and Bonuses derive from the attacker or the source. It's simply my opinion that they derive from the attacker because that's what makes the most sense to me.

Edit: Also, the chart in the FAQ on page 5 regarding bonuses to attack dice uses the term "attacker" which lends a bit of credence to my opinion. Just to counter DaveW's observation about the FAQ's use of the term source when stating that Burst of Thorns does not benefit from the Mage's Traits. It is a muddled situation.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 11:54:52 PM by Zuberi »

DaveW

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Re: Staff of Stoms. What does "you" mean
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2014, 05:37:51 PM »
Two things strike me about Burst of Thorns.
Firstly, the spell is an incantation and not an attack....

I believe the reason that the attack is generated from an incantation and not an attack spell is related to the target of the spell. Burst of Thorns will target a vine marker, so it really would seem strange to me if it were an attack spell.
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DaveW

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Re: Staff of Stoms. What does "you" mean
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2014, 05:40:56 PM »
So based on that logic, you can not add additional counters after the first attack with Chain lightning. The best you can do is attempt to really kill the first target with 9 attack dice.

Actually... if you really want something bizarre, you could let your own Mage be the second target, and then I do not see why you can't apply storm tokens to the next target. Something like enemy target with +1-3 bonus dice from storm tokens, then own Mage, then different enemy target with the rest of the bonus from storm tokens.
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HeatStryke

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Re: Staff of Stoms. What does "you" mean
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2014, 07:30:58 PM »
Source is simply the point the targeting takes place from.

Bonuses derive from the attacker and the target. The attacker's bonuses (if they don't fall off like Ranged) remain with the attack, the bonuses from the target (see +Lightning) will vary and not carry over from attack to attack.

DaveW

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Re: Staff of Stoms. What does "you" mean
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2014, 08:07:46 PM »
See +Lightning... where?

Lightning +x is a trait of a defender, not an attacker. I don't get what you are saying there, sorry.
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Zuberi

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Re: Staff of Stoms. What does "you" mean
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2014, 08:50:40 PM »
He is talking about Lightning +X and how it is a Trait of the target (or defender if you prefer). Since it is a trait of the target, it only affects attacks against that target and will not affect subsequent attacks made thereafter.

Otherwise, he's agreeing with my interpretation of source and attacker, and that it is the Traits of the Attacker that affect the attack rather than the traits of the source.

HeatStryke

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Re: Staff of Stoms. What does "you" mean
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2014, 10:07:43 PM »
Silly people translating for me.  :P

But yeah, my typing got ahead of my memory.  ::)

DaveW

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Re: Staff of Stoms. What does "you" mean
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2014, 05:33:09 PM »
Ah... got it... thanks.
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