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Author Topic: Standardized Card Numbers  (Read 3820 times)

Ganpot

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Standardized Card Numbers
« on: October 24, 2015, 03:09:20 PM »
So I've recently been analyzing the list of cards compiled in the Spellbook Builder (what?  I'm a bit obsessive compulsive, I admit), and I have a question.  I know that between the releases of Conquest of Kumanjaro and Druid vs Necromancer Arcane Wonders instituted a standardized card numbering system.  However, I'm unclear on the exact specifics of this system.  I thought I knew what it was, but there are some anomalies which seem to indicate I was wrong. 

level 1 cards = 6 copies
legendary, unique, or school-only = 3 copies
epic or mage-only = 2 copies
all other cards = 4 copies

However, there seem to be exceptions to this in the newer releases.  Level 1 equipment spells never have 6 copies, and sometimes school-only and mage-only spells possess 4 copies instead of 3 or 2.  Occasionally, weirder stuff will happen.   For example, Forged in Fire only contains 4 copies of Combustion, even though it is a level 1 incantation spell.  So, can anyone clear up for me what the exact formula is for determining card numbers?

echephron

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Re: Standardized Card Numbers
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2015, 04:34:48 PM »
I gave a formula way back with  FIF which is close but not exact. I cant find it, but:

Epics which are not mage only get 3 like armory or construction yard
equipment is treated as also unique, which is why you dont get 6
and many mage onlys have a ton of copies. seedling pod and burst of thorns have 6 each. Its more like:

epic and mage only=2
legendary/unique and mage only = 2 or 3 ( i forget)
mage only but none of above: special circumstance based on whether they could want to cast 6 or not.

you could argue that combustion is a fire-mage only which wouldnt be cast 6 times.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2015, 04:45:06 PM by echephron »
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Re: Standardized Card Numbers
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2015, 06:26:00 PM »
Funny - I thought this topic was talking about the card numbers printed at the bottom of each card. :)

If I recall correctly this info was posted somewhere in the forums, but I don't remember which topic.

Level 1 spells include 6 copies and Non-level 1 spells include 4 copies for non-legendary, non-epic or non-mage specific. Equipment worked differently since maximum copies in a spellbook were thought to be unlikely. i.e. who needs 6 copies of that ring in one spellbook. I believe the distribution decided for equipment is limited to 3 or 4 copies for spells that are non-legendary, non-epic or non-mage specific.



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Ganpot

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Re: Standardized Card Numbers
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2015, 10:35:53 PM »
To clarify what I'm talking about, I'll give a list of cards which seem to go against the typical system without any obvious reason.  I'll leave out the level 1 equipment, since the replies about them make sense.  I'll also skip the releases which don't currently adhere to the system (the core set and Conquest of Kumanjaro). 

Forcemaster vs Warlord (updated version):
-Dancing Scimitar x 3 (should be 4)
-Psi-Orb x 2 (should be 3; mind mage only but not forcemaster only)
-Sectarus, Dark Rune Sword x 2 (should be 3; legendary and dark mage only)
-Mana Prism x 4 (should be 3; unique) (strangely enough, the old version actually gave the correct amount)
-Thoughtspore x 4 (should be 3; mind mage only)
-Charm x 4 (should be 3; mind mage only)
-Mind Control x 4 (should be 3; mind mage only)

Druid vs Necromancer:
-Mohktari's Branch x 3 (should be 4)
-Samara Tree x 6 (should be 2; druid only and epic)
-Seedling Pod x 6 (should be 2; druid only)
-Rise Again x 4 (should be 3; dark mage only)
-Animate Dead x 4 (should be 3; dark mage only)
-Burst of Thorns x 6 (should be 2; druid only)

Forged in Fire:
-Eisenach's Forge Hammer x 2 (should be 3; war mage only)
-Harshforge Plate x 2 (should be 3; war mage only)
-Otto Kronig, Master Engineer x 4 (should be 3; legendary)
-Combustion x 4 (should be 6; level 1)
-Conquer x 4 (should be 3; war mage only)

Battlegrounds Domination:
-Skeelax, Taunting Imp x 3 (should be 2; warlock only)


Based on that, I'd guess class and school restricted cards only have decreased card numbers when they are also a piece of equipment.  That still doesn't explain everything, though.  I have to assume the 6 copies of Samara Tree is a typo on the website, because that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.  Dancing Scimitar, Psi-Orb, and Sectarus are each missing one copy, but I assume that's due to Arcane Wonders just kind of drawing the line since they already added roughly 30 extra cards to the new version of FvW. 

That leaves Mana Prism, Mohktari's Branch, Eisenach's Forge Hammer, Harshforge Plate, Otto Kronig, and Combustion as unexplained. 

Also, about Combustion.  It isn't listed as fire mage only (and I just showcased how that probably wouldn't matter anyway), and there are several other elemental spells which do possess 6 copies.  There are also other cards which are very unlikely to have 6 copies ever placed in a spellbook, but which possess 6 copies nonetheless.  So there must be some other reason. 

Ganpot

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Re: Standardized Card Numbers
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2015, 10:39:55 PM »
I also just double-checked and realized that if mage-only and class-only did not reduce card numbers, other cards which did previously seem to apply to the standardization really don't.  So in other words, I still have no idea what the system is.   :-\

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Re: Standardized Card Numbers
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2015, 02:58:52 AM »
The system is determined by printing sheet sizes, most likely. Total up all the cards in a set (possibly including 2 per mage, possibly not), and they'll probably fall into some number =a*b*c where a is height of the sheet in cards, b is width in cards, and c is number of sheets. Different printing editions may have different sheet sizes, too.

The rules for dividing a set into sheets are guidelines more than hard and fast rules. I mean, combust could theoretically have 6 copies, but the nature of the spell makes it unlikely you'd want to run that many, so they print less. Contrawise, if there's a spell you might want to run 4 of, even if it's Foo Mage Only, AW tries to print 4 copies so you don't need to buy two sets.
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echephron

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Re: Standardized Card Numbers
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2015, 03:25:19 AM »
To clarify what I'm talking about, I'll give a list of cards which seem to go against the typical system without any obvious reason.

I literally just explained the system, but you still seem confused so i'll be clearer. Almost all of your problem cases were explained by my system. This is my last time I am looking at this thread so I don't get worked up. Its been a long day.

to recap:
A) Epics, uniques, legendaries, and/or equipment get (3). If they are also mage-only as well, they get (2).
B) Being mage only does not reduce the card count in and of itself
C) If not A, level 1 cards get 6 copies and level 2+ get 4 copies, so you can fill a spellbook with them.
D) The intent is that you can make any one spellbook from the resources (provided you never cast multiple epics, uniques, legendaries, equipment)

problem cases

the few you listed which actually do not follow the system if your information is correct:
Mana Prism x 4 (should be 3) UNIQUE
Otto Kronig, Master Engineer x 4 (should be 3 LEGENDARY;
-Combustion x 4 (should be 6; level 1;
-Skeelax, Taunting Imp x 3 (should be 2; warlock only AND LEGENDARY)

and some other cases if i remember correctly:
barracks should be 2 not 1
[mwcard=FWE09]Standard Bearer[/mwcard] (2 not 1)

there may be more, but I am not hunting them down tonight.


as for why these specific counts are off,
The system is determined by printing sheet sizes, most likely.

two or so card totals per set get rounded to make the right count for the sheets. Hope thats what you are looking for.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 03:27:56 AM by echephron »
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Re: Standardized Card Numbers
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2015, 05:36:33 AM »
I believe a standard pack of cards is 55. So 3 packs is 165 cards total. Thus the size of the expansion is set by the number of packs that are included.

I imagine the cost to produce non-standard pack sizes is much higher unless you can print massive quantities in one print run. This option would not be economically feasible for a smaller company.
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Laddinfance

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Re: Standardized Card Numbers
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2015, 09:35:01 AM »
Forcemaster vs Warlord (updated version):
-Dancing Scimitar x 3 (should be 4)
-Psi-Orb x 2 (should be 3; mind mage only but not forcemaster only)
-Sectarus, Dark Rune Sword x 2 (should be 3; legendary and dark mage only)
-Mana Prism x 4 (should be 3; unique) (strangely enough, the old version actually gave the correct amount)
-Thoughtspore x 4 (should be 3; mind mage only)
-Charm x 4 (should be 3; mind mage only)
-Mind Control x 4 (should be 3; mind mage only)

Druid vs Necromancer:
-Mohktari's Branch x 3 (should be 4)
-Samara Tree x 6 (should be 2; druid only and epic)
-Seedling Pod x 6 (should be 2; druid only)
-Rise Again x 4 (should be 3; dark mage only)
-Animate Dead x 4 (should be 3; dark mage only)
-Burst of Thorns x 6 (should be 2; druid only)

Forged in Fire:
-Eisenach's Forge Hammer x 2 (should be 3; war mage only)
-Harshforge Plate x 2 (should be 3; war mage only)
-Otto Kronig, Master Engineer x 4 (should be 3; legendary)
-Combustion x 4 (should be 6; level 1)
-Conquer x 4 (should be 3; war mage only)

Battlegrounds Domination:
-Skeelax, Taunting Imp x 3 (should be 2; warlock only)

Dancing Scimitar is level 2, and generally only level 1 equipments could get 4 copies.
Psi-Orb is a mage only equipment, and so you only get 2 copies.
Sectarus is the same.
Thoughtspore is mind mage only, however as it's one of 3 creatures the Forcemaster has, and it's pretty useful we included 4.
Charm and Mind Control were included at max copies because they're key to the style of the forcemaster, at least from a thematic approach.

Mohktari's Branch is a pretty specialized piece of equipment and so it gets 3 copies.
Samara Tree is a typo. There are 2 of them in the set, as there should be with almost any epic card.
Seedling Pod is needed in large numbers to work with Samara tree and so we included the full 6 cards.
Rise Again and Animate Dead were key cards conceptually for the Necromancer, also they're all fully usable by Warlocks so we put 4 copies in.
Burst of Thorns is very much like an attack spell and we wanted to give you the copies needed to cast this throughout the game.

Eisenach's Forge Hammer is two copies because it is a mage only piece of equipment.
Harshforge Plate is the same.
Otto Kronig is a typo, there are 3 copies of him.
Combustion should have 6 copies under normal rules. However, because of how the spell works it's incredibly unlikely that anyone would cast 6 of these in a game and so we cut it down to 4 copies. Still well more than you need.

One last thing to keep in mind. Sometime to make a set fit, we have to look at the options availible to us and prune some copies back to allow us to fit on the sheet. In the end we want to give our players the best possible expansion, with the best overall distribution of cards. I hope this is somewhat helpful. Enjoy your Sunday.

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Re: Standardized Card Numbers
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2015, 10:24:55 AM »
Also take into consideration that the sheet size changed a bit from the older printings to the newer printings allowing for some additional cards count differences between the older and newer sets.
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Ganpot

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Re: Standardized Card Numbers
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2015, 10:32:56 AM »
Dancing Scimitar is level 2, and generally only level 1 equipments could get 4 copies.
Psi-Orb is a mage only equipment, and so you only get 2 copies.
Sectarus is the same.
Thoughtspore is mind mage only, however as it's one of 3 creatures the Forcemaster has, and it's pretty useful we included 4.
Charm and Mind Control were included at max copies because they're key to the style of the forcemaster, at least from a thematic approach.

Mohktari's Branch is a pretty specialized piece of equipment and so it gets 3 copies.
Samara Tree is a typo. There are 2 of them in the set, as there should be with almost any epic card.
Seedling Pod is needed in large numbers to work with Samara tree and so we included the full 6 cards.
Rise Again and Animate Dead were key cards conceptually for the Necromancer, also they're all fully usable by Warlocks so we put 4 copies in.
Burst of Thorns is very much like an attack spell and we wanted to give you the copies needed to cast this throughout the game.

Eisenach's Forge Hammer is two copies because it is a mage only piece of equipment.
Harshforge Plate is the same.
Otto Kronig is a typo, there are 3 copies of him.
Combustion should have 6 copies under normal rules. However, because of how the spell works it's incredibly unlikely that anyone would cast 6 of these in a game and so we cut it down to 4 copies. Still well more than you need.

One last thing to keep in mind. Sometime to make a set fit, we have to look at the options availible to us and prune some copies back to allow us to fit on the sheet. In the end we want to give our players the best possible expansion, with the best overall distribution of cards. I hope this is somewhat helpful. Enjoy your Sunday.

I was literally about to hit the post button in response to the previous replies when your post popped up, so perfect timing.  ;D

Thanks for clarifying the reasoning behind some of the card numbers.  I wasn't aware that level 2+ equipment typically only got 3 copies.  It's also nice to know someone on the dev team didn't fall crazily in love with the Samara Tree and decide to sneak in 4 extra copies of it (I still have my suspicions about Minor Heal ;)). 

I do have one last question though.  Some of the cards listed are school-only instead of mage-only.  I previously assumed there was a difference, and that the two things were treated differently (with school-only getting another copy).  Is that not the case?  For example, [mwcard=MWSTX2FFQ05] Harshforge Plate[/mwcard] is War Mage Only but not Warlord Only.  For the purposes of card numbering, is that distinction meaningless?

To be honest, I do find the distinction strange in a couple of cases.  Harshforge Plate and Eisenach's Hammer seem pretty specific to the Warlord (specifically the Alt Warlord, but of course no cards are restricted to just a single version of a mage).  Maybe the designers just felt that future War mages would need those cards?  I'm also pretty surprised Mohktari's Branch isn't mage or school restricted (since it's extremely unlikely that any non-Nature mage would be running enough plants to make the card worth taking).   

Laddinfance

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Re: Standardized Card Numbers
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2015, 11:15:30 AM »
Generally a "school" only and a "mage" only don't really have that much difference when we're determining the quantities of cards. Now, sometimes as we're trying to fill out sheets and whatnot it may play into how we add or subtract cards to get to the sheet count we need.

Harshforge Plate and the Forge Hammer were left as War Mage only because we wanted to leave it open for future War Mages.

Halewijn

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Re: Standardized Card Numbers
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2015, 11:23:04 AM »
Harshforge Plate and the Forge Hammer were left as War Mage only because we wanted to leave it open for future War Mages.

He's talking about this adonis:

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