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Author Topic: Warlord Build Refinement/Thoughts/Criticisms  (Read 6752 times)

Arlemus

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Warlord Build Refinement/Thoughts/Criticisms
« on: December 19, 2014, 07:46:05 AM »
[spellbook]
[spellbookheader]
[spellbookname]Horde Mentality[/spellbookname]
[mage]Warlord[/mage]
[/spellbookheader]
[spells]
[spellclass]Attack[/spellclass]
[mwcard=DNA01]1 x  Acid Ball[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWA04]1 x  Hurl Boulder[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX2FFA02]1 x  Hurl Rock[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Conjuration[/spellclass]
[mwcard=MWSTX2FFJ04]1 x  Armory[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1j22]1 x  Tanglevine[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWJ07]1 x  Quicksand[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MXSTX2FFJ02]1 x  Altar of Carnage[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWW01]1 x  Wall of Pikes[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWJ03]1 x  Barracks[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX2FFJ05]1 x  Construction Yard[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX2FFW01]1 x  Wall of Earth[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX2FFJ03]1 x  Altar of Domination[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWJ04]2 x  Garrison Post[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Creature[/spellclass]
[mwcard=FWC11]4 x  Orc Butcher[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX2FFC06]2 x  Goblin Alchemist[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX2FFC07]1 x  Gurmash, Orc Seargeant[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWC05]2 x  Goblin Grunt[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX2FFC09]1 x  Otto Kronig, Master Engineer[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWC04]1 x  Goblin Builder[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWC01]1 x  Dwarf Kriegsbiel[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX1CKC07]1 x  Dwarf Panzergarde[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWC06]3 x  Goblin Slinger[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Enchantment[/spellclass]
[mwcard=FWE06]2 x  Fortified Position[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWE09]1 x  Standard Bearer[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX2FFE04]3 x  Brace Yourself[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Equipment[/spellclass]
[mwcard=FWQ06]1 x  Horn of Gothos[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1q23]1 x  Regrowth Belt[/mwcard]
[mwcard=DNQ09]1 x  Wand of Healing[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX1CKQ06]1 x  Eagleclaw Boots[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWQ08]1 x  Ring of Command[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX2FFQ04]1 x  General's Signet Ring[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWQ05]1 x  Helm of Command[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWQ11]1 x  War Sledge[/mwcard]
[mwcard=DNQ07]1 x  Veteran's Belt[/mwcard]
[spellclass]Incantation[/spellclass]
[mwcard=MWSTX2FFI04]1 x  Flank Attack[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1i06]2 x  Dispel[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX2FFI03]1 x  Disarm[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1i13]1 x  Group Heal[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1i17]2 x  Minor Heal[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1i04]1 x  Charge[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX2FFI02]1 x  Conquer[/mwcard]
[mwcard=MWSTX2FFI06]3 x  Defend[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWI06]1 x  Power Strike[/mwcard]
[mwcard=FWI08]1 x  Sniper Shot[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1i28]1 x  Teleport[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1i12]1 x  Force Push[/mwcard]
[mwcard=mw1i07]2 x  Dissolve[/mwcard]
[/spells]
[cost]Total cost: 120 pts[/cost]
[/spellbook]

Here's the latest iteration of my Bloodwave deck.  I'm sure you all know how this type of book works by now, so let's skip straight to the discussion, If I may  ;D

I'd like this thread to be more about your thoughts and experiences than my own.   I'm very interested in what has been working well for you all as Warlord (BW or AT), what hasn't, and your thoughts.  This can be general, or card specific.  For example, I've learned new respect for [mwcard=MWSTX2FFE04]Brace Yourself[/mwcard] recently as a cheap way to give my mage lots of armor that is acid resistant (though action heavy), but have had trouble justifying continued inclusion of [mwcard=FWQ06]Horn of Gothos[/mwcard]. 

If you don't play Warlord, but have been having recent success against, or trouble with, the Warlord, be sure to share.

Also, I'm interested in the amount of copies of cards you include, and why.  I feel like one of the biggest challenges as a Warlord is deciding exactly how many of each command, etc, to include in your book, and the variance between how many of a card I choose, and how many you choose, could represent interesting differences in our respective meta.

Be sure to include a list of your own book, if interested, so we can compare.  All discussion, comments, and criticisms welcome.
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zorro

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Re: Warlord Build Refinement/Thoughts/Criticisms
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2014, 09:02:56 AM »
Hi!

HEre you can find a very similar book of mine for the dwarf warlord. Construction Yard, Barracks, and lots of creatures, very similar book despite the differences.

I use near to no commands.. flank attack, sniper shot, and so on, i find them too much situational. I also preffer more wall of earth than wall of pikes, breaking LoS can be really usefull, i think this ckind of book is more about control and getting supperiority.

I think also having both altar of carnage and altar of superiority is too much. I think just one of them is enough. In fact, i think i will end dropping both of them from my own book.

The orc buthcers are my creature of prefference, really efficient. Also the grunts, the are really cheap with the ring, and cand help a lop - hindering, helping conquest, a unexpected guard... i end including more of them, for those turns when i dont cast other creature with the barrack.

I droped Horn of Gothos really early in my book development
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sdougla2

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Re: Warlord Build Refinement/Thoughts/Criticisms
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2014, 05:29:56 PM »
I run an Anvil Throne Warlord that uses a Battle Forge, Barracks, Construction Yard, and Meditation Amulet. I can't get all of my economy up against highly aggressive opponents, but I can easily switch into defense instead of continuing to play economy for turns 2 or 3 if I feel threatened. I run plenty of armor, Reflex Boots, and Walls of Earth to slow down aggression.

I mainly rely on Orc Butchers and Goblin Alchemists. I rarely have to chase down my opponent, and Goblin Alchemists are fantastic when your opponent is coming to you. I don't really like Goblin Grunts, so I'm taking them out. I use Anvil Throne Crossbowmen as a longer ranged option. In addition, I run 1 Dwarf Panzerguade (good for Standard Bearer) and a couple of Bloodcraig Minotaurs. I run Altar of Carnage, but not Altar of Domination. Altar of Carnage can return my investment in ~2 rounds pretty easily, while I don't have time to get Altar of Domination up after all of the other investments I make in economy. In addition, there isn't a great place to put it after I fill in 4 of the zones on my side of the board with zone exclusives. I prefer Wall of Earth to Wall of Pikes.

I don't really use many command incantations. I liked the idea of Flank attack, but in practice I find it much more useful to run a bunch of Hurl Rocks. Hurl Rock is not nearly as situational and solves a larger variety of problems.

Battle Fury can be good, but only if you have a creature that has a better attack than Hurl Rock, which I don't.

I really like Defend, though I think it's better for a strategy revolving around creatures that heal like Necropian Vampiresses or Bridge Trolls than for my Warlord. Still, I run a few.

Charge is just not that exciting. The attack bonus is negligible, and it only helps mobility in very limited circumstances. Force Push and Teleport are much more consistently useful for position control (work even when hindered, help catch up when more than 2 zones away, can be used on enemy creatures...), and Hurl Rock or Bear Strength are better for dealing damage.

I am firmly convinced that most command incantations are too action intensive, too situational, and not mana efficient enough compared to persistent effects or attack spells to be worthwhile.

I tried using an Elemental Wand with the Rune of Power, and that worked well, but I've come to the conclusion that I am better off just running 6 Hurl Rock and saving my Rune of Power for something I can't spam easily in school anyway like Wand of Healing. I suspect Elemental Wand with Rune of Power with an Acid Ball spellbound would really help an extremely aggressive Warlord, since Goblin Alchemists don't work as well in that context.

I tried using Gurmash, but I didn't like him. Of the command incantations, only Defend is actually good for him to cast. Otherwise you're better off using your quick cast right before activating the creature, and, as I've noted, I'm not a big fan of most of those cards anyway. Using him to cast command enchantments is okay, but there aren't enough of them. I suppose you could use him to spam Brace Yourself, but I don't think that's a good enough reason to run Gurmash.

I've actually taken out Ring of Command because I don't use commands consistently enough to justify it. The same thing happened with Horn of Gothos.

I run 2 Dispels and a Harshforge Monolith to help against enchantments.

I actually don't run any Teleports. I use a couple of Force Pushes for position control. It's hard to justify the spellbook cost of Teleport, and I'm not particularly concerned by cards that restrain an individual creature.

I've found Harshforge Plate to be amazing. It forces curse based builds to either eliminate it or use Enchantment Transfusion to bypass it, but it also makes it more costly for them to Teleport you where you don't want to be. Elemental Cloak with the Rune of Reforging is fantastic against fire or lightning heavy builds. Regrowth Belt with the Rune of Reforging is great when Elemental Cloak isn't exciting. Reflex Boots with the Rune of Protection are fantastic against big threats and acid attacks. Leather Gloves with the Rune of Fortification are the most efficient source of armor in the game for a mage.
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Arlemus

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Re: Warlord Build Refinement/Thoughts/Criticisms
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2014, 09:02:33 PM »
Interesting stuff! This is pretty much exactly what I was looking for.

Some quick discussion points:

1).  COMMANDS: It seems like we already have a relatively solid consensus on command incantations as whole.  That is, they require too much investment (actions, mana, etc) to be worth including.  Probably the most notable exception is Defend, which is interesting because it is the only command that is arguably action neutral, or even action positive, depending on your perspective.

I'm definitely inclined to agree.  I can't remember the last time I used sniper shot, and while I was initially excited for Flank Attack, I rarely use it either :-\.  I think I'm now convinced these two should go.

The main issue I'm running into now is, Defend is SO strong relative to the other commands that I'm finding it hard to justify preparing a different command instead.  This is aggravated for commands like Power Strike, where Battle Orders (especially Bloodwave's) function similarly, but require no prep slot.

PS: I agree about Batte Fury.  I removed all mine for that exact reason.

2).  CREATURES: Creatures also seem to have a consensus, though some notable differences.  Orc Butchers are definitely the meat of our builds.  However, it's interesting to see the first post by Zorro promoting/praising Goblin Grunts, then the following post by sdougla dismiss them entirely.

At least in terms of Goblin Grunts, I feel like I fall in the middle of both of your experiences.  I've had iterations of this book with 5 Grunts, and iterations with 0.  I feel, as you mentioned Zorro, that they do have a place in "the Horde," being generally annoying via guarding, etc.  However, I definitely feel at times that they are almost a waste of mana that would be better saved.  I think I will drop down to just 1.

I completely agree on Panzerguarde as a solid/go-to target for the Standard.  For his cost, his stats are really strong, and the Warlord has many ways to increase his dice.  Sticking the Standard on a Butcher is essentially begging your opponent to bury him with an attack spell.

I find it interesting that you have 2 Bloodcrag Minotaurs, sdougla.  I've been looking to try to include them for a while, but in the past I've had mixed results with them.  I also find myself preferring zone/arena buffs over larger individual creatures.  I guess my question here would be, how do you handle buffing your army vs deploying a larger creature?  (Leading into the next topic...) Also, do you feel that Altar of Carnage is a key component in ramping into larger creatures?

3).  CONJURATIONS:  Here we have no consensus.  Indeed, Earth Walls seem to be the only shared ground.  In my build I have both Altar of Carnage and Altar of Domination, sDougla has Altar of Carnage, and Zorro has neither (or will have neither).

Admittedly, I have little experience with Altar of Domination, though after some recent games against very economy heavy builds I decided to include it (and Talos 8)).  Obviously, the Warlord doesn't have any issues with developing a powerful economy of his own, but I believe AoD could possibly be a very solid play against mages such as the Priestess or Necromancer.

A couple questions here: What are your experiences with these Altars? Specifically, what makes you dismiss them(Zorro)?  Also, similar to the above question (sDougla), how does Altar of Carnage typically fit into your turn structure, do you always place the mana on Barracks? etc.

That's it from me for now  :D.  I know I missed some stuff (Equipment, etc) so feel free to bring up your own discussion points.  I look forward to the continued discussion.
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Wise fool

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Re: Warlord Build Refinement/Thoughts/Criticisms
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2014, 09:27:37 PM »
I find that by the time I could bring Altar of Domination into the fray, the game is essentially either won or lost anyway and Altar is superfluous.  Either I'm fighting for my life and I don't have the mana and actions to spare for it, or I have a big enough creature advantage already that casting it isn't going to make an appreciable difference.  It's a neat spell, and I'm loath to remove it from my book, but I have yet to use it.  It would be too easy for an opponent to fireball/force hammer a single garrison post and then the strategy is out the window anyway.

Just my thoughts.  I love the Warlord.  I've been playing him the most lately.

sdougla2

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Re: Warlord Build Refinement/Thoughts/Criticisms
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2014, 12:00:15 AM »
My issue with Goblin Grunts is that they don't really improve my options. There are situations where they are potentially okay, but in other situations they're worthless, plus they make you much more vulnerable to swarm counters. They are not worth considering if your opponent is likely to play Mordok's Obelisk or Suppression Orb or is likely to hit the area with a zone attack. They are terrible against damage barriers and sweeping attacks. They'll probably die to a single attack from even a moderately strong creature. Even with Armory they're just slightly too weak. If you want to go for level 1 creatures as the Warlord, I think Skeletal Minions are a much better choice. The extra 2 life makes a big difference, and being immune to poison doesn't hurt.

I like Altar of Carnage better than Altar of Domination for a few reasons. Altar of Carnage can give immediate payoff, while Altar of Domination gives no payoff for 4 rounds, and possibly longer if your opponent kills off your outposts. With Altar of Carnage, I can do my initial economy, spend 3-4 rounds playing creatures and equipment, then play Altar of Carnage using mana from my Construction Yard and immediately get the mana I spent from my mage on it back on my Barracks or Battle Forge.

The big problem I have with Altar of Domination is that once I've played 3 outposts, I don't want to spend the mana to cast another conjuration for a few rounds while I play creatures and equipment, but there is very little point in playing Altar of Domination later in the game. If you don't play Barracks, playing 3 outposts is not worthwhile enough even with the possible payoff of Talos.

As for Bloodcraig Minotaurs, I wanted to include a few extremely sturdy creatures, and Bloodcraig Minotaur are the best option for that. They give me an option in case playing lots of little creatures won't work well. You can ramp into them with Altar of Carnage, but you can also play them in situations where you think an Orc Butcher would be killed before getting to act or where you'll be taxed for your creatures.
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zorro

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Re: Warlord Build Refinement/Thoughts/Criticisms
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2014, 04:40:39 AM »
I find that by the time I could bring Altar of Domination into the fray, the game is essentially either won or lost anyway and Altar is superfluous.  Either I'm fighting for my life and I don't have the mana and actions to spare for it, or I have a big enough creature advantage already that casting it isn't going to make an appreciable difference.  It's a neat spell, and I'm loath to remove it from my book, but I have yet to use it.  It would be too easy for an opponent to fireball/force hammer a single garrison post and then the strategy is out the window anyway.

My thoughts about altars are quite similar to those of Wise Fool's. I may try altar of carnage for the inmediate payoff Douglas talks about... or keep altar of Domination since it can break down situations where both you and opponet go for strong economy and bouild up.

As for the grunts, i value then not as much as a creature per se but as a utility. They can be remove an enemy guard, can function as a cheaper block (defending), position them to hinder, you can use them to flank and destroy mana crystal/flowers of Conquest things, give a couple of damage dice... it's true that they can be really situational and sometimes they get destroyed without acting, but they are really cheap and sometimes they give great value for the buck. I just donīt pile them onto the enemy, but flank him to disturb, more as skirmishers than frontline soldiers
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TeenageWargamer

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Re: Warlord Build Refinement/Thoughts/Criticisms
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2015, 07:56:52 PM »
Grunts I have found to be one-shot missiles rather than creatures, I tend to get one attack out of them and then they die.  I definitely like orc butchers, and dwarf panzergardes with bear strength are absolute tanks.  As for ranged support I agree that the alchemists are vital, don't really know whether the crossbow men are better than the slingers or not.  I find Talos to be hard to use, it is extremely difficult to get him out.  As for the Minoutars, I prefer Dwarf Panzergarde with bearstrength or a troll. 

Wise fool

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Re: Warlord Build Refinement/Thoughts/Criticisms
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2015, 08:43:01 PM »
I like alchemists over crossbowmen for the corrosive effect alone.  To be honest, through, I've never used the dwarven crossbowmen.  The measly 3 dice attack, even with 2 piercing, is off-putting to me.

TeenageWargamer

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Re: Warlord Build Refinement/Thoughts/Criticisms
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2015, 09:48:09 AM »
The thing that is great about the crossbowmen is dealing with those creatures that have high armor but low health, if playing the dwarf warlord you can get them up to piercing +4, at which point any damage they do is basically direct damage.